If God Controls Everything...

[rusra02]

May I direct your attention to Young's Literal Translation of that same verse: [YLT]...and the great dragon was cast forth -- the old serpent, who is called `Devil,' and `the Adversary,'...

Right off the bat you can see where there is no being with the name of Satan. YLT has correctly translated the references which were written in Hebrew (ha-satan). Furthermore, the concept of the devil as this evil arch enemy with red skin and a pitchfork is pure fiction. The term devil comes from the Greek diábolos, and it means slanderer or accuser.

In court, I can be an accuser.
In a game, I can be an adversary.

There is nothing sinister about it. "Satan" was merely performing his duty as an adversary when he challenged Jesus during the temptations. "Satan" is powerless to act without God's divine permission. The idea for "Satan" to be this evil bad guy comes from the human need to place blame on something, instead of accepting responsibility.

All I can say is that Jesus Christ and the Bible disagree with you. Jesus said of Satan; "That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) Satan does resist God and also slanders him, thus making himself Satan (resister) and devil (slanderer). The fact that God permits Satan's temporary existence does not make God responsible for the monstrous evil perpetrated by Satan and his followers.

 

[rusra02]

No need to shout Rusra. I thought that you believed that God is omnipotent. If I am mistaken, I apologize. And if I am not, I don't see how this makes any sense. Either God knows or God doesn't.

I used capital letters to assist you, not to shout. I believe God is omnipotent or all powerful. And he can foreknow whatever he chooses to foreknow. He also has the ability to control what he foreknows. For example, a weatherman may be able to forecast tomorrow's weather with the tools he has, but he is not forced to do so. I believe the Bible teaches God uses his ability to foretell the future selectively. One example is Jehovah sending angels to Sodom "to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” (Genesis 19:21)

 

[Neo Deist]

Most any Bible. If you use the KJ version, that is fine. I prefer the NWT, an accurate translation written in modern English, unlike the KJ which was translated over 400 years ago. Jesus Christ, whose name you claim (deist Christian) believed God's word and taught it to others. (John 17:17)

I certainly do not use the KJV nor the NWT, as both are corrupt translations.

The 1611 KJV was written by 47 members of the newly formed Church of England. The writing style was selected to sound formal for the purposes of public speaking. English was not a language at the time of Jesus, so to think that ancient man talked like Shakespeare is ridiculous. Not to mention they had very few textual resources from which to translate from...and when in doubt they copied Jerome's Latin Vulgate, which has led to all kinds of errors.

The NWT is a paraphrased version, and none of the writers were fluent with Hebrew, Aramaic or Greek. They basically copied older English translations, reworded stuff, added "Jehovah" everywhere (albeit erroneously), and claimed divine inspiration. As Dr. J R. Mantey stated about the NWT, "I would advise [him] to get a translation other than the NWT, because ninety-nine percent of the scholars of the world who know Greek and who have helped translate the Bible are in disagreement with the Jehovah's Witnesses."

 

[Neo Deist]

All I can say is that Jesus Christ and the Bible disagree with you. Jesus said of Satan; "That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) Satan does resist God and also slanders him, thus making himself Satan (resister) and devil (slanderer). The fact that God permits Satan's temporary existence does not make God responsible for the monstrous evil perpetrated by Satan and his followers.

Jesus never wrote anything in the Bible.

The Bible, in its true form (Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek), does not disagree with me. What does disagree are the Christian beliefs that have been twisted over the centuries, and influenced by fictional works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost. Lastly, quoting an anonymous author (Gospel of John) does not win you brownie points...the Gospels are all hearsay at best (3rd party, not eyewitnesses).

 

[Cap'n MacDougal]

I'd probably have to believe in god and a less agnostic stance on whether we can truthfully apply modal operators to moral dictums (whether we can respond to Hume with a sound basis for going from a "ought" to an "is"). At the moment, I can only say our legal, ethical, and moral systems (soundly or no) depend upon the assumption of at least a degree of free will in order to assign responsibility. If a person is found guilty of a crime, we hold that they were responsible for their actions because they could have chosen otherwise and did not.
Therefore, we have some reason to say that by creating a universe in which humans have free will, God not only allowed for individuals to do other than God would wish but that they would be responsible for their actions. Put differently, we seem to act as if (and often explicitly state there to be) a iff [if and only if] relationship between free will and responsibility. Thus God could only endow us with free will only if we were then responsible for our actions, and if he created us with free will then we would be responsible for are actions. God would still be responsible for giving us free will.

Understood. I was, momentarily, enjoying living in the hypothetical realm of extending responsibility *back* to an Omnimax God in a form of Contributory Negligence. In the sense that the power to do (or choose) otherwise is applicable to non-action. If I possess the power to stop a morally reprehensible act from occurring and do nothing, do I bear a portion of responsibility for its occurrence? Agreed re: assumption of a degree of free will in order to assign responsibility. Although I find that to be conditional; based on various cognitive abilities and/or constraints, environmental considerations, etc. A certain baseline of cognitive ability and environmental stability is assumed as well, which if altered, assignment of responsibility may be altered. Which, at times, can lead to a bit of muddy water.

 

[JoStories]

All I can say is that Jesus Christ and the Bible disagree with you. Jesus said of Satan; "That one was a murderer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of the lie." (John 8:44) Satan does resist God and also slanders him, thus making himself Satan (resister) and devil (slanderer). The fact that God permits Satan's temporary existence does not make God responsible for the monstrous evil perpetrated by Satan and his followers.

I disagree. You stated that you believe God to be omnipotent and the creator of all. Therefore, it follows that God not only would know what Satan was going to do, God allowed this to happen. Making God culpable, IMO. It can't be two ways here. Either God knows or God doesn't. If you have a child and you permit that child to commit murder, knowing full well that he or she was going to commit that murder, the law would charge you as responsible after the fact.

 

[JoStories]

I used capital letters to assist you, not to shout. I believe God is omnipotent or all powerful. And he can foreknow whatever he chooses to foreknow. He also has the ability to control what he foreknows. For example, a weatherman may be able to forecast tomorrow's weather with the tools he has, but he is not forced to do so. I believe the Bible teaches God uses his ability to foretell the future selectively. One example is Jehovah sending angels to Sodom "to see whether they are acting according to the outcry that has reached me. And if not, I can get to know it.” (Genesis 19:21)

First, I am sorry. I didn't realize you were using caps to make it easier for me.
Then, if you have that weatherman who knows that a tornado is going to come through some town and that weatherman doesn't tell people, isn't he or she responsible for any deaths or damage done? Isn't it his or her's responsibility to let people know that? Of course it is. What if a doctor knew that someone had cancer and didn't tell them. Its the same thing.

 

[rusra02]

Jesus never wrote anything in the Bible.

The Bible, in its true form (Hebrew, Aramaic, Koine Greek), does not disagree with me. What does disagree are the Christian beliefs that have been twisted over the centuries, and influenced by fictional works such as Dante's Inferno and Paradise Lost. Lastly, quoting an anonymous author (Gospel of John) does not win you brownie points...the Gospels are all hearsay at best (3rd party, not eyewitnesses).

I see you do not accept the Bible most people use.

 

[Neo Deist]

I see you do not accept the Bible most people use.

 

[rusra02]

First, I am sorry. I didn't realize you were using caps to make it easier for me.
Then, if you have that weatherman who knows that a tornado is going to come through some town and that weatherman doesn't tell people, isn't he or she responsible for any deaths or damage done? Isn't it his or her's responsibility to let people know that? Of course it is. What if a doctor knew that someone had cancer and didn't tell them. Its the same thing.

Interesting analogies. I believe Jehovah is doing exactly that today, warning all mankind of impending destruction. However, few are taking any notice. (Matthew 24:14)

 

[rusra02]

I disagree. You stated that you believe God to be omnipotent and the creator of all. Therefore, it follows that God not only would know what Satan was going to do, God allowed this to happen. Making God culpable, IMO. It can't be two ways here. Either God knows or God doesn't. If you have a child and you permit that child to commit murder, knowing full well that he or she was going to commit that murder, the law would charge you as responsible after the fact.

We cannot rightly apply human standards to Almighty God. Since Adam had sinned, God could have justly destroyed him immediately. Then, neither of us would be having this discussion. God's permission of evil is temporary and serves to accomplish what needs to be done to undo the damage caused by Satan, IMO. I believe God's justice and ways are infinitely higher than mine, and I can do no better than to learn what true justice is by listening to what he says.

 

[JoStories]

Interesting analogies. I believe Jehovah is doing exactly that today, warning all mankind of impending destruction. However, few are taking any notice. (Matthew 24:14)

How can you know that God is doing this today? Why today? History is replete with tons of eras that God could have used for this end of times deal. Your belief that it is happening today has been held by every generation. I recall a quote from Socrates that he worried about the youth of his time too. Why not during the Dark Ages? That is a tough time for humankind. Why not during the time of the Holocaust? It just seems to easy to say that today is the time.

 

[JoStories]

We cannot rightly apply human standards to Almighty God. Since Adam had sinned, God could have justly destroyed him immediately. Then, neither of us would be having this discussion. God's permission of evil is temporary and serves to accomplish what needs to be done to undo the damage caused by Satan, IMO. I believe God's justice and ways are infinitely higher than mine, and I can do no better than to learn what true justice is by listening to what he says.

Then that begs the question of why create humankind in the first place. And hasn't God been made into a being that has human characteristics already? Your faith paints God as some white man with a long flowing beard, etc. Isn't that giving God human traits. Or that God has to set things straight due to the things this 'satan' has done. The OT/ Tanakh is full of lessons that show God has human emotions. Anger being the biggest one. Why couldn't God just not have created this Satan in the first place or killed him outright? God would have known what Satan was going to do after all and therefore, God allowed it. Now you want God to have to go behind this character and clean up the mess? It just doesn't make sense.

 

[rusra02]

How can you know that God is doing this today? Why today? History is replete with tons of eras that God could have used for this end of times deal. Your belief that it is happening today has been held by every generation. I recall a quote from Socrates that he worried about the youth of his time too. Why not during the Dark Ages? That is a tough time for humankind. Why not during the time of the Holocaust? It just seems to easy to say that today is the time.

I am convinced the Bible indicates God has an appointed time for ruling the earth and removing all human governments. (Daniel 2:44, Matthew 24:36) Decades before 1914, Jws were pointing to that year as the beginning of the last days. To this day, Jws continue to hold to that date as the time God's kingdom began its rule. They believe this on the basis of Bible prophecy that pinpoints 1914 as the time Christ began ruling 'in the midst of his enemies.' (Psalm 110:2) We believe the events occurring since 1914 fulfill the sign Jesus said would precede the end of this system of things. (Matthew 24:3-14)

 

[rusra02]

Then that begs the question of why create humankind in the first place. And hasn't God been made into a being that has human characteristics already? Your faith paints God as some white man with a long flowing beard, etc. Isn't that giving God human traits. Or that God has to set things straight due to the things this 'satan' has done. The OT/ Tanakh is full of lessons that show God has human emotions. Anger being the biggest one. Why couldn't God just not have created this Satan in the first place or killed him outright? God would have known what Satan was going to do after all and therefore, God allowed it. Now you want God to have to go behind this character and clean up the mess? It just doesn't make sense.

I do not picture Jehovah as "a white man with a long flowing beard." There is no evidence God chooses to foreknow everything. I believe Jehovah created intelligent creatures to enjoy free will. They can choose to serve their Creator or not. (Deuteronomy 30:19) Jehovah is secure in his Sovereignty, and nothing anyone does can hinder his purposes from being realized. (Isaiah 46:10) I believe Jehovah loves us, and that is what motivates him to "clean up the mess" Satan and our first parents caused. (John 3:16) He has explained all this in the Bible, and IMO it is there we can find the answers that can not be found anywhere else.

 

[JoStories]

I am convinced the Bible indicates God has an appointed time for ruling the earth and removing all human governments. (Daniel 2:44, Matthew 24:36) Decades before 1914, Jws were pointing to that year as the beginning of the last days. To this day, Jws continue to hold to that date as the time God's kingdom began its rule. They believe this on the basis of Bible prophecy that pinpoints 1914 as the time Christ began ruling 'in the midst of his enemies.' (Psalm 110:2) We believe the events occurring since 1914 fulfill the sign Jesus said would precede the end of this system of things. (Matthew 24:3-14)

How does that make you any different than any of the other myriad cults and groups who have claimed end times for ages now. Heaven's Gate. Jim Jones. The one down in South America...I can't think of their name right off. There was a documentary made about them. And so on. What happens to your theory if none of what you believe occurs?

 

[rusra02]

How does that make you any different than any of the other myriad cults and groups who have claimed end times for ages now. Heaven's Gate. Jim Jones. The one down in South America...I can't think of their name right off. There was a documentary made about them. And so on. What happens to your theory if none of what you believe occurs?

The Bible warns us about listening to false prophets. In fact, the appearance of the false prophets is a feature of the sign Jesus gave to indicate God's Kingdom is close. (Matthew 24:11) But the fact that there are false prophets doesn't mean Jesus was one also. Bible prophecy has always proved to be reliable and comes true. Like a person's fingerprints uniquely identify him, I believe the fulfillment of the sign Jesus gave to know when God's Kingdom is near uniquely identifies our time as the last days. (2 Timothy 3:1-5) Each person is free to examine the evidence and decide for themselves what they believe.

 

[George-ananda]

Some believe that God controls everything, and that everything happens according to His will. They will go as far as to refuse medical treatment, blood transfusions, etc. Their attitude is that if it is God's will, then they will be saved, cured, not robbed, not in a car crash, etc. So here is a question...

According to Revelation 20:11-15, the dead are raised from their graves and judged according to their deeds [actions]. But if God controls everything, why is a judgment necessary since He would be judging what He caused in the first place? Are humans really nothing more than automatons...mere robots?

Something to think about.

You are showing logical conundrums from the ramifications of an omniscient God and human free-will. I think that mankind has reached the point that the Abrahamic religions are no longer satisfactory for many and we are reaching the end of the Abrahamic age. I think mankind is entering a new age with more sophisticated concepts like non-dualism (God and creation are not-two) and pantheism.

 

[Neo Deist]

You are showing logical conundrums from the ramifications of an omniscient God and human free-will. I think that mankind has reached the point that the Abrahamic religions are no longer satisfactory for many and we are reaching the end of the Abrahamic age. I think mankind is entering a new age with more sophisticated concepts like non-dualism (God and creation are not-two) and pantheism.

Why do you think I am a deist?

 

[George-ananda]

Why do you think I am a deist?

Because you are thinking within the past western tradition.....The sages/Gurus of the east/India I have found have something to teach us westerners. Deism may be a lame stepping stone to more..??