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If God Created Everything Who Created God????
- Thread starter Krie
- Start date
sandy whitelinger
Veteran Member
Krie said:
There is already a thread on this very topic. http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=30909
robtex
Veteran Member
jewscout said:
Huff, your missing the point. The point is that many theists surmise that God has always existed or was self-created yet won't entertain the notion that universe was anything other than created by God, which would include notions of the unverise being self-created or having always existed. In summary:
many theists
God= self created or always existed
Universe = created by God impossible to have been self-created or always existed.
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
In a debate like this one, you have already messed up. You can't apply man's laws and rules, or man's standards and expectations to God. God is God. Nothing had to create him. He was just there.
Lindsey-Loo
Steel Magnolia
Being God, He is all-powerful. He can do anything. That puts him beyond our laws, even beyond our understanding. It's sort of obvious, isn't it? That is someone is all powerful, nothing that applies to us has to apply to them.
DanDanTheCoffeyMan
New Member
God has no begining or end and we can never comprehended it until we are with him side by side
Tom Davidson
Member
Aquinas offered a pretty good argument for the contingency and thus finiteness of the universe as did Aristotle and others - and the argument still stands.
Aquinas, in so doing, also offered a pretty good argument that contingent nature cannot create itself, which still stands, so an argument has to be put forward to counter that one.
Aquinas thus argued for the existence of God in principle, but not God as Christianity understand the term, as this results from Revelation, not philosophy, and thus cannot be proven.
Whilst theists argue that God created the universe, the counter-argument that the universe is eternal and self-creating is likewise an article of faith, as there is no proof as such to support the argument.
There are basically three arguments:
The argument from sufficient reason (Liebnitz)
Nothing exists without sufficient reason and therefore a cause
The argument from contingency (Aristotle, Aquinas, et al.)
As above, plus:
Movement/change in a thing can only take place when caused by something external to itself ... a refinement of the above argument.
The 'Kalaam' argument
That the universe had a beginning in time - and that an infinite can only exists in theory, but not in actuality as a complete thing.
One can aaccept or reject the arguments, but one cannot prove or disprove them, although the theory and evidence stacks up prtetty favourably on the side of a finite universe.
All argue that the Cause without Cause, the First Cause, the Unmoved Mover etc., can be called God - the definition of God being that which causes/moves but is not itself caused/moved - but none of these arguments are in any way proofs of God as Christianity would understand the term.
Thomas
Aquinas, in so doing, also offered a pretty good argument that contingent nature cannot create itself, which still stands, so an argument has to be put forward to counter that one.
Aquinas thus argued for the existence of God in principle, but not God as Christianity understand the term, as this results from Revelation, not philosophy, and thus cannot be proven.
Whilst theists argue that God created the universe, the counter-argument that the universe is eternal and self-creating is likewise an article of faith, as there is no proof as such to support the argument.
There are basically three arguments:
The argument from sufficient reason (Liebnitz)
Nothing exists without sufficient reason and therefore a cause
The argument from contingency (Aristotle, Aquinas, et al.)
As above, plus:
Movement/change in a thing can only take place when caused by something external to itself ... a refinement of the above argument.
The 'Kalaam' argument
That the universe had a beginning in time - and that an infinite can only exists in theory, but not in actuality as a complete thing.
One can aaccept or reject the arguments, but one cannot prove or disprove them, although the theory and evidence stacks up prtetty favourably on the side of a finite universe.
All argue that the Cause without Cause, the First Cause, the Unmoved Mover etc., can be called God - the definition of God being that which causes/moves but is not itself caused/moved - but none of these arguments are in any way proofs of God as Christianity would understand the term.
Thomas