If God existed how could it be proven?

[CG Didymus]

No, people do not have to look at all the older religions on order to find the new religion. If they are logical they will look at the new religion first and allow it to explain how it is related to all the older religions and why a new religion was necessary.

It seems like a lot of the newer ones explain how the older ones messed things up. And nowhere does Judaism talk of any other religion being true. Same with Christianity... There is not one other religion that they say is true except Judaism, but then they say how the Jews got everything screwed up.

But then, we have new improved versions of most all religions. The older ones keep adapting and evolving.

 

[Truthseeker]

But then, we have new improved versions of most all religions. The older ones keep adapting and evolving.

It depends on how define what a religion is. The words revealed by a Manifestation are timeless, with the caveat the social laws apply to a certain time. The meaning of these verses doesn't evolve over time in the mind of God, but the interpretation of these verses in mortal men definitely changes over time. The modern world is also not the same as in olden times so naturally they apply their understandings in a different way.

In my opinion, these new understandings of verses over time are not as good as the what a new revelation does, which brings a whole new level of knowledge of God.

 

[CG Didymus]

You came in after the party was almost over. This thread got really long really fast but I expect it to die down now, which is a relief because I have other posts on two other threads that I need to answer...
So you have Christians in the family? That sounds like fun, about as much fun as the historic heat wave we had up here in the Northwest last weekend with temps of 108. I don't know what to say to those Trinitarian Christians anymore so I don't say much. Their own Bible proves they are wrong about Jesus being God.

I visited him over the weekend and he's preaching 7th Day Adventist things at me. He asked, "Do you want to do a Bible study?" What was I supposed to say, "Hell no?" So I said, "Sure." He said first we have to see what the Bible says about who Jesus is. Of course, after going through a bunch of verses, "we" determined Jesus is The Messiah, The first and last, The very Son of the living God. Oh yes, and the Word made flesh. Then he went into a study of the earthly sanctuary and the heavenly sanctuary. Two hours later he finally said, "Okay, that's probably enough for tonight." I said, "Amen, halleluiah."

This is the story he told me. In his twenty's, he got stuck on a big rock and couldn't see the foothold to get down. But lucky for him God put his hand on his back and kept him from falling. But that was forty years ago. But God is talking to him again. So God is very real to him. But the Baha'i Faith is true, then not one thing he believes about God is true. Especially that thing about Jesus being God. He sees it in there. He showed me.

 

[Trailblazer]

And how does it work? Do you know that they understood God because of their spiritual powers, or they had spiritual powers because they understood God? Again, I am not sure how you cam solve that without begging the question./QUOTE]
I believe that they understood God because of their spiritual powers.

Of course. Like all the others. You need to have faith that they did not make everything up. What else have you got?/QUOTE]
Evidence that supports the faith.

 

[Trailblazer]

Usual question... What exactly did he reveal with Jesus? What exactly were the people in that day able to understand? 'Cause according to what you tell me, the early Christians got most all of it wrong?

Jesus said what He came to do, He came to reveal the truth about God, just like Baha'u'llah did...

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

But early on Christians got way off track with the resurrection and all the false beliefs so they lost the most important reason Jesus came with all their false doctrines and beliefs.

 

[CG Didymus]

It depends on how define what a religion is. The words revealed by a Manifestation are timeless, with the caveat the social laws apply to a certain time. The meaning of these verses doesn't evolve over time in the mind of God, but the interpretation of these verses in mortal men definitely changes over time. The modern world is also not the same as in olden times so naturally they apply their understandings in a different way.

In my opinion, these new understandings of verses over time are not as good as the what a new revelation does, which brings a whole new level of knowledge of God.

Christianity is a great example. The Protestant Reformation changed the world... some good some bad. Then I hear even the Catholics changed things up with Vatican II. And, important for Baha'is, liberal Christians don't take the Bible as literal as other Christians.

Oh, and about social laws, when was stoning people to death for breaking some of the laws ever a good idea? Especially for breaking the Sabbath law by doing something the leaders thought was work? And then, what new social laws did Jesus bring that took civilization to the next level? I don't study it, but didn't Greek and Romans have more to do with advancing modern civilization? And I know Baha'is point out the good things brought on by Islamic culture. But what about Christianity? It seems that people advanced way more after getting away from Christianity.

 

[Trailblazer]

I visited him over the weekend and he's preaching 7th Day Adventist things at me. He asked, "Do you want to do a Bible study?" What was I supposed to say, "Hell no?" So I said, "Sure." He said first we have to see what the Bible says about who Jesus is. Of course, after going through a bunch of verses, "we" determined Jesus is The Messiah, The first and last, The very Son of the living God. Oh yes, and the Word made flesh. Then he went into a study of the earthly sanctuary and the heavenly sanctuary. Two hours later he finally said, "Okay, that's probably enough for tonight." I said, "Amen, halleluiah."

This is the story he told me. In his twenty's, he got stuck on a big rock and couldn't see the foothold to get down. But lucky for him God put his hand on his back and kept him from falling. But that was forty years ago. But God is talking to him again. So God is very real to him. But the Baha'i Faith is true, then not one thing he believes about God is true. Especially that thing about Jesus being God. He sees it in there. He showed me.

Many Christians believe for emotional reasons because of personal "God experiences." Baha'is also believe that Jesus was the Messiah, but not the Messiah of the end times. We also believe Jesus was the Son of God, but only figuratively, because God has no offspring. Baha'is also believe that Jesus was the Word made flesh in the sense of being manifested in the flesh, not incarnated in the flesh. Jesus is not God and Jesus never claimed to be God but once a Christian has been taught that it is impossible to change their belief even though it is in no way supported by the Bible.

You have more patience than I do. What do 7th Day Adventists believe about the return of Christ?

 

[CG Didymus]

I posted to you about angels a while back. Angels are holy souls who can exist in heaven or in earth.
Below is one thing that Baha'u'llah wrote about angels.

“And now, concerning His words: “And He shall send His angels….” By “angels” is meant those who, reinforced by the power of the spirit, have consumed, with the fire of the love of God, all human traits and limitations, and have clothed themselves with the attributes of the most exalted Beings and of the Cherubim. That holy man, Ṣádiq, 37 in his eulogy of the Cherubim, saith: “There stand a company of our fellow-Shí’ihs behind the Throne.” Divers and manifold are the interpretations of the words “behind the Throne.” In one sense, they indicate that no true Shí’ihs exist. Even as he hath said in another passage: “A true believer is likened unto the philosopher’s stone.” Addressing subsequently his listener, he saith: “Hast thou ever seen the philosopher’s stone?” Reflect, how this symbolic language, more eloquent than any speech, however direct, testifieth to the non-existence of a true believer. Such is the testimony of Ṣádiq. And now consider, how unfair and numerous are those who, although they themselves have failed to inhale the fragrance of belief, have condemned as infidels those by whose word belief itself is recognized and established.

And now, inasmuch as these holy beings have sanctified themselves from every human limitation, have become endowed with the attributes of the spiritual, and have been adorned with the noble traits of the blessed, they therefore have been designated as “angels.” Such is the meaning of these verses, every word of which hath been expounded by the aid of the most lucid texts, the most convincing arguments, and the best established evidences.” The Kitáb-i-Íqán, pp. 78-80

And here is what is in the Bible, not all that different from what Baha'u'llah wrote..

Question: "What are cherubim? Are cherubs angels?"

Answer: Cherubim/cherubs are angelic beings involved in the worship and praise of God. The cherubim are first mentioned in the Bible in Genesis 3:24, “After He drove the man out, He placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.” Prior to his rebellion, Satan was a cherub (Ezekiel 28:12-15). The tabernacle and temple along with their articles contained many representations of cherubim (Exodus 25:17-22; 26:1, 31; 36:8; 1 Kings 6:23-35; 7:29-36; 8:6-7; 1 Chronicles 28:18; 2 Chronicles 3:7-14; 2 Chronicles 3:10-13; 5:7-8; Hebrews 9:5).

Chapters 1 and 10 of the book of Ezekiel describe the “four living creatures” (Ezekiel 1:5) as the same beings as the cherubim (Ezekiel 10). Each had four faces—that of a man, a lion, an ox, and an eagle (Ezekiel 1:10; also 10:14)—and each had four wings. In their appearance, the cherubim “had the likeness of a man” (Ezekiel 1:5). These cherubim used two of their wings for flying and the other two for covering their bodies (Ezekiel 1:6, 11, 23). Under their wings the cherubim appeared to have the form, or likeness, of a man's hand (Ezekiel 1:8; 10:7-8, 21).

The imagery of Revelation 4:6-9 also seems to be describing cherubim. The cherubim serve the purpose of magnifying the holiness and power of God. This is one of their main responsibilities throughout the Bible. In addition to singing God's praises, they also serve as a visible reminder of the majesty and glory of God and His abiding presence with His people.

Recommended Resources: Angels: Elect & Evil by C. Fred Dickason and Logos Bible Software.

What are cherubim? Are cherubs angels? | GotQuestions.org

#201 Trailblazer, 1 minute ago

Here's a link about "mal’akh" or angels...

We tend to imagine angels as human beings with white wings clothed in white robes—but in the Bible, angels could be flying heavenly snakes or winged bulls with human faces. But more important, it was the angel’s function or role that mattered.

The Hebrew term mal’akh, like the Greek term angelos, means “messenger.” The Hebrew Bible uses the term on rare occasion when speaking of a human messenger (Gen 32:3), but typically the term refers to heavenly beings who serve what the Bible regards as the one true God, Yhwh.​

 

[Trailblazer]

It seems like a lot of the newer ones explain how the older ones messed things up. And nowhere does Judaism talk of any other religion being true. Same with Christianity... There is not one other religion that they say is true except Judaism, but then they say how the Jews got everything screwed up.

But then, we have new improved versions of most all religions. The older ones keep adapting and evolving.

Judaism and Christianity both believe they are the only true religion, that is one thing they have in common that other religions don't have. They have tried to adapt to the changing times but they have not evolved. Religion only evolves when God sends a new Messenger. Anything else is just like trying to put band-aids in something that needs surgery!

 

[CG Didymus]

Especially when the 'evidence' for the validity of the new religion is the accuracy of supposed prophecies that in my opinion are indistinguishable from simple accurate predictions.

Christians tell me that the odds for Jesus to have fulfilled all the Bible prophecies that he did is like an astronomical kind of number. But then I look at some of the main "prophecies" that they say he fulfilled, and all of them have problems. My favorite is the supposed "virgin" birth. They take one verse and never mention the rest of the verses that say what else is supposed to happen to this boy and what else he is supposed to do. So what are the chances of Jesus or any other prophet of fulfilling out of context, cherry-picked verses? And, even the Baha'is reject some of them and say that Jesus didn't fulfill those verses... it was their prophet Baha'u'llah that fulfilled them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Please present when I said that I have not pointed out your making excuses for god....

I never said that you have not not pointed out (what you believe is) my making excuses for God. Quite the contrary.

NINE times you have told me I am making excuses for God. The proof is below.

1. Mestemia said:
No offense, but this merely comes off as nothing more than you making excuses for God....
#93 Mestemia, Yesterday at 10:55 PM

2 Mestemia said:
If so, I am wondering why you are the one listing excuses for god.

3. You present a long list of excuses for God.
I point out that you presented a long list of excuses for God.
You ask why God would need excuses
I said why indeed, yet here we are.

4. In fact, if God really is the God you claim God to be, why indeed would god need you to make excuses for him?

5. You present a long list of excuses for God.
#161 Mestemia, Today at 2:11 PM

Mestemia said:
How does that follow?
6. Your presenting excuses for god means YOU think god needs excuses.
My pointing it out in no way reveals my stance on the subject.

7. then why this list of excuses: #165 Mestemia, Today at 2:51 PM

8. Mestemia said:
Your list of excuses were presented in the post this post of yours is in reply to.

9. Your excusing your god through SoP does not change the excuses into not excuses.
#173 Mestemia, Today at 3:16 PM

 

[Truthseeker]

Oh, and about social laws, when was stoning people to death for breaking some of the laws ever a good idea? Especially for breaking the Sabbath law by doing something the leaders thought was work?

I have no idea, I didn't live then. I don't know what the conditions were then. I think perhaps people were less advanced morally and spiritually then, so greater punishment had to be meted out. But that's just speculation. Jesus said that doing good works on the sabbath was okay. There's also the possible problem of the words of Moses not being entirely passed down correctly. I don't know anything said Socrates, and he was considered wise for saying that. Socrates was advanced for his time.

I don't study it, but didn't Greek and Romans have more to do with advancing modern civilization? And I know Baha'is point out the good things brought on by Islamic culture. But what about Christianity? It seems that people advanced way more after getting away from Christianity.

Well, the Greeks and Romans had slavery, and the Romans had brutal games with gladiators for people's enjoyment. There was philosophical reasoning instead of just relying on unthinking religious understandings by some Greeks, that was the good part, and that was preserved mostly by Islamic philosophers.

There was a defective understanding of what Christianity was about. For instance Christians weren't supposed to kill each other in the name of religion when Christ said:

This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
John, "The Gospel of John - ευαγγέλιο του ιωάννη", 15:12

There is a new spirit in this age that gets us back to that understanding.

 

[CG Didymus]

Jesus said what He came to do, He came to reveal the truth about God, just like Baha'u'llah did...

John 18:37 Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end was I born, and for this cause came I into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice.

But early on Christians got way off track with the resurrection and all the false beliefs so they lost the most important reason Jesus came with all their false doctrines and beliefs.

So he came to reveal the "truth" about God? I guess Jesus didn't do a very good job of it. I could just see that conversation in heaven... God gets on his heavenly intercom and says, "Holy Spirt, Jesus get in here right now. What exactly did you tell the people?" Jesus looks confused and answers, "Just the things you told me to reveal to them." God gives him a stern look and says, "And nothing else." God points down to Earth and says, "Then why are they making you and the Holy Spirit God? Where did they get that fool notion?"

 

[McBell]

I never said that you have not not pointed out (what you believe is) my making excuses for God. Quite the contrary.

Ah, very good then.
Now that that particular tangent is cleared up.....

Why then is it you keep repeating ad nauseum something that according to you is not in dispute?

Since even you admit I have never denied my pointing out your making excuses for god, why are you so belabouring the point?

 

[Truthseeker]

Christians tell me that the odds for Jesus to have fulfilled all the Bible prophecies that he did is like an astronomical kind of number. But then I look at some of the main "prophecies" that they say he fulfilled, and all of them have problems. My favorite is the supposed "virgin" birth. They take one verse and never mention the rest of the verses that say what else is supposed to happen to this boy and what else he is supposed to do. So what are the chances of Jesus or any other prophet of fulfilling out of context, cherry-picked verses? And, even the Baha'is reject some of them and say that Jesus didn't fulfill those verses... it was their prophet Baha'u'llah that fulfilled them.

I know of at least one Baha'i that used the same method that Christians did in a book I read. It was as if the Christians did that, we could do that, too. Prophecies can be interpreted different ways. They can also be taken out of context. I don't believe that assigning some astronomical figure to a number of prophecies is valid for that reason, no matter who does it. Prophecies I don't believe are good evidence at all for a Prophet. It is the spirit coming from the Writings of a Prophet, how much sense they make, and how well the Prophet lives a holy life. Fulfillment of prophecies helps confirm the faith of a believer, but rarely convinces anyone else.

 

[rational experiences]

Humans by behaviour and civilization status will always be wrong.

Simple basic fact. You make choices based on want and not reality natural.

Teachings of God.

Father said humans see him in the tunnel effect a recording at death seen in NDE. He speaks to you.

Lots of humans have nearly died lots of humans seen spirit.

Science human stated said a spirit is a gas.

Plain fact.

Now if we came back into life after dinosaurs died small bodied life would be instant. Small cells living differently.

Blood different for a status reptile life before body blood different.

So we can only be instant life as reptiles as small bodies are different yet still are living with us.

The bible says once the Giants lived.

You see dinosaur images in clouds yet little dinosaurs are living. Reptiles.

That status in science would say evolution is not real.

If you said life was instant it was.

If we did come out of the eternal at ground Zero earth face only then would we be an owned bio instant record. Self human instant.

Are we an eternal self or are we humans separated and die? From being sent out.

Sex whilst young the only reason life continues is not evolution.

Father seen in tunnel as God spirit gas recording. At death.

If God began historic burning opening of space as God creating in creation by spirit movement as one explanation movement as O GOD. Then it was taught for its reasons

As consuming was first science law. Space would be opposition to consuming. Then we know we are not that God.

If father stands as an image in a tunnel that once swirled by movement GOD in heavens body then he is.

So is father a God or the point where God was released into creation?

No.

We came straight into gods present spirits of inheriting new form via heaven of spirit. Holy life water ours.

We are not gods origin as God. A teaching fact.

Why the mind said proven believed as a man in science began false claiming that he created creation. By father standing as an image man in the tunnel.

Why we were warned about false preachers scientists.
Why it was explained.

Possessed by his own man image.

Told don't idolise yourself.

Completely ignored why.

Father is not God a God or the God so no man is God.

Two variables what was caused are what phenomena was caused is a biblical confession what man did by man's science sin I burnt the even ING sky constantly as K was once imposed as a human science symbol constant.

An explanation scientific symbolic only. Thesis why. Not how or copy it.

Constantly for six days by science K the even ING sky KING man status inferred had by inçreased day heat the day died dies......in science.

Man in science invented his own daylight constant but his stopped.

I counted it
I watched it.
It stopped.

Effect left reason why life is still suffering today UFO gas burning status. Seen as lights in evening. Balances 12 12 no longer exist.

Eve only as night not even.

Stated in occult paintings as a human answer why life in extra burning gases nuclear radiation fallout dies unnaturally.

As death was first natural holy C100 years now we die sacrificed.

Bible a scientific confession reasoned why.

The sacrifice instant caused has not stopped.

Fallout. Or as taught the fall of man.

Ignored as reasoning for UFO status. Science the occult chosen sin of man did it.

When a human says destroyer mentality is science they meant what they said.

Science looks at dead things. Converted ancient earth changes and discusses it. You prove you know understand destruction by what you express as you look and see.

We were warned about the science psyche observations. The fact you know destruction not creation.

 

[Trailblazer]

So he came to reveal the "truth" about God? I guess Jesus didn't do a very good job of it.

NONE of what happened was Jesus' fault, it was all the fault of the Church who MIS-interpreted most of what Jesus said and created a false religion..... The False Prophets

And then there was Paul who added icing to the cake. How Paul changed the course of Christianity

 

[Trailblazer]

Ah, very good then.
Now that that particular tangent is cleared up.....

Why then is it you keep repeating ad nauseum something that according to you is not in dispute?

Since even you admit I have never denied my pointing out your making excuses for god, why are you so belabouring the point?

I am not belaboring it, I was just trying to clear things up, and apparently I succeeded.
Apparently it was all just a misunderstanding, and I don't like misunderstandings.

 

[rational experiences]

Humans by behaviour and civilization status will always be wrong.

Simple basic fact. You make choices based on want and not reality natural.

Teachings of God.

Father said humans see him in the tunnel effect a recording at death seen in NDE. He speaks to you.

Lots of humans have nearly died lots of humans seen spirit.

Science human stated said a spirit is a gas.

Plain fact.

Now if we came back into life after dinosaurs died small bodied life would be instant. Small cells living differently.

Blood different for a status reptile life before body blood different.

So we can only be instant life as reptiles as small bodies are different yet still are living with us.

The bible says once the Giants lived.

You see dinosaur images in clouds yet little dinosaurs are living. Reptiles.

That status in science would say evolution is not real.

If you said life was instant it was.

If we did come out of the eternal at ground Zero earth face only then would we be an owned bio instant record. Self human instant.

Are we an eternal self or are we humans separated and die? From being sent out.

Sex whilst young the only reason life continues is not evolution.

Father seen in tunnel as God spirit gas recording. At death.

If God began historic burning opening of space as God creating in creation by spirit movement as one explanation movement as O GOD. Then it was taught for its reasons

As consuming was first science law. Space would be opposition to consuming. Then we know we are not that God.

If father stands as an image in a tunnel that once swirled by movement GOD in heavens body then he is.

So is father a God or the point where God was released into creation?

No.

We came straight into gods present spirits of inheriting new form via heaven of spirit. Holy life water ours.

We are not gods origin as God. A teaching fact.

Why the mind said proven believed as a man in science began false claiming that he created creation. By father standing as an image man in the tunnel.

Why we were warned about false preachers scientists.
Why it was explained.

Possessed by his own man image.

Told don't idolise yourself.

Completely ignored why.

Father is not God a God or the God so no man is God.

Two variables what was caused are what phenomena was caused is a biblical confession what man did by man's science sin I burnt the even ING sky constantly as K was once imposed as a human science symbol constant.

An explanation scientific symbolic only. Thesis why. Not how or copy it.

Constantly for six days by science K the even ING sky KING man status inferred had by inçreased day heat the day died dies......in science.

Man in science invented his own daylight constant but his stopped.

I counted it
I watched it.
It stopped.

Effect left reason why life is still suffering today UFO gas burning status. Seen as lights in evening. Balances 12 12 no longer exist.

Eve only as night not even.

Stated in occult paintings as a human answer why life in extra burning gases nuclear radiation fallout dies unnaturally.

As death was first natural holy C100 years now we die sacrificed.

Bible a scientific confession reasoned why.

The sacrifice instant caused has not stopped.

Fallout. Or as taught the fall of man.

Ignored as reasoning for UFO status. Science the occult chosen sin of man did it.

When a human says destroyer mentality is science they meant what they said.

Science looks at dead things. Converted ancient earth changes and discusses it. You prove you know understand destruction by what you express as you look and see.

We were warned about the science psyche observations. The fact you know destruction not creation.

The theme I never die the recorded self idolisers image of man's science sin.

That status an image never dies.

You begin to realise man's expressed science thesis symbols are not a copy manual it was reasoned as caused cause.

 

[Truthseeker]

So he came to reveal the "truth" about God? I guess Jesus didn't do a very good job of it. I could just see that conversation in heaven... God gets on his heavenly intercom and says, "Holy Spirt, Jesus get in here right now. What exactly did you tell the people?" Jesus looks confused and answers, "Just the things you told me to reveal to them." God gives him a stern look and says, "And nothing else." God points down to Earth and says, "Then why are they making you and the Holy Spirit God? Where did they get that fool notion?"

I can see from the Gospels that there is definitely some ambiguity with what Jesus said sometimes, if you just look at at some verses in isolation. If you see the complete picture it becomes clearer. The idea of the Trinity didn't happen all at once, it evolved over time, finally getting solidified in the early 4th century, after which it was forbidden to not believe in the Trinity. People weren't supposed to think for themselves any more. Part of the blame goes to Constantine, because he insisted that the Christians decide on one doctrine, that there should be no disagreements.

This is just a take of mine, but I think making Jesus God became appealing to Christians over time because by exalting Jesus this way the priests and leaders of Christianity were exalting themselves, too. You know of the idea that Satan is equated to the human ego, I think?

Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? He said unto them, An enemy hath done this.
Matthew, "The Gospel of Matthew - ευαγγέλιο του Ματθαίου", 13:24

The tares are the false doctrines in my opinion, at least in one interpretation, and the enemy is Satan or the human ego.