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If God existed, would there be any atheists?

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
You engage in special pleading and circular reasoning.
I already explained how I do not engage in circular reasoning.
The special pleading fallacy does not apply to God. :rolleyes:
Having knowledge about what exists and what doesn't, has nothing to do with free will and everything with detectability, testability and verifiability.
But you do not have knowledge of everything that exists and everything that does not exist, you just believe you do, but beliefs do not prove anything.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
No, there is no proof, only evidence.

I have evidence because evidence is what indicates (not proves) that God exists.

So whatever indicates to me that God exists is evidence to me.

I do have to have faith in my evidence. I also have to have faith that I will live another day, because I cannot prove that.

If you cannot prove murder then there is no conviction.

If you don’t prove God exists then there are atheists, but that is no proof that God does not exist since proof is not what makes God exist.

That’s true, but I believe in all kinds of things I cannot prove, so God is no different.

Without falsifiable evidence you have belief.
 

Nimos

Well-Known Member
Okay, now I will tell you why the atheist on the other forum said that there would be no atheists if God existed. He believes that if God existed, God would prove to everyone that He exists, so there would be no atheists.
Yeah that seems like a wrong assumption to make :)
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
ok.....a typo......you got me.....

now.....WHY.....did they do it?

Why do people create art? Why do people write stories that will never get published? Why do people sing in the shower? Why did Michaelangelo paint the ceiling of the Sisten Chapel?

Because the desire to express one's self artistically is a common trait in ALL humans, even the people who made the Nazca lines.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
That is not a circular argument. For one thing, God does not have logical arguments or make claims, only people have arguments and make claims. For another thing, God does not need excuses for NOT being detectable, as an infallible God does not need any excuses for anything. It is fallible humans who need excuses and they make plenty of them.

Funny how that leaves God completely indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.

And you speak of fallible Humans being the ones who need to make excuses. You seem to be making lots of them right now.

No traces that you can recognize.

Nor anyone else. Again, exactly what we'd expect from something that doesn't exist.

There is only one God, not MY God and YOUR God.

You don't seem to understand. Do you worship Zeus? Of course not. So Zeus is not your God. But if there is a person who DOES worship Zeus, then Zeus is his God.

And how is that God’s fault when they mess up? I never saw God on trial in a court of law. That is because all rational people know that humans are fully responsible for their actions, unless they have brain damage or disease, or they are mentally ill or mentally challenged.

If someone creates a system where things can go wrong and things then go wrong, the creator of the system bears at least some of the responsibility for it.

There is only one true God, the rest are imaginary gods.
True Messengers represent the one true God, false messengers represent imaginary gods.

And now you are committing the logical fallacy of begging the question. Begging the question - Wikipedia

I can support them but I cannot prove them.
God claims can never be proven except to oneself.

How very convenient.

And it's exactly what we'd expect from something that doesn't exist.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Why do people create art? Why do people write stories that will never get published? Why do people sing in the shower? Why did Michaelangelo paint the ceiling of the Sisten Chapel?

Because the desire to express one's self artistically is a common trait in ALL humans, even the people who made the Nazca lines.
nay....many people just earn paychecks

and self expression toward your fellowman is not the same as
expression aimed over your head
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
very poor argumentive ploy

expectations?.....yours?

and God has no expectations?

Speaking of poor methods of arguing, how about ignoring most of a post and then just claiming that the one bit you DO actually respond to is just "poor"?
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Then the person paying the money wants an artistic expression made.



Lots of people have made art for deities that don't exist.
and it is written.....
few find the way

true.....people perform for a God you can't see

none so blind as they who will not look

but hey.....7billion copies of a learning device
and it all ends in dust?
no one survives te last breath?
not one chance in billions?

and if there is no God
then Man is a complete mystery with no resolve
and extinction is pending
 

night912

Well-Known Member
If God existed, would there be any atheists?

This is a yes or no question, so please answer yes or no.

If you answer yes, please explain why there would still be atheists if God existed.

If you answer no, please explain why there would be no more atheists if God existed.

Thanks, Trailblazer :D
Yes. Because it is not god, per se, that determines whether or not one is an atheist. It is the individual that determines it.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
and it is written.....
few find the way

true.....people perform for a God you can't see

none so blind as they who will not look

but hey.....7billion copies of a learning device
and it all ends in dust?
no one survives te last breath?
not one chance in billions?

and if there is no God
then Man is a complete mystery with no resolve
and extinction is pending

Argument from popularity? You really want to play that game? Very well. Most people in the world are non-Christians. Christianity is proven wrong because most people think it's wrong.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Funny how that leaves God completely indistinguishable from something that doesn't exist.
But that does not mean God does not exist.
God could exist and desire to appear nonexistent so people will search harder to find Him..
And you speak of fallible Humans being the ones who need to make excuses. You seem to be making lots of them right now.
A perfect God does not need anyone making excuses for Him which is why I don’t make any. Humans are imperfect and that is why they need to to excuse themselves to God.
Nor anyone else. Again, exactly what we'd expect from something that doesn't exist.
No, what you would expect from a God that does not want to be detected.
You don't seem to understand. Do you worship Zeus? Of course not. So Zeus is not your God. But if there is a person who DOES worship Zeus, then Zeus is his God.
And so what?
If someone creates a system where things can go wrong and things then go wrong, the creator of the system bears at least some of the responsibility for it.
Not unless God causes things to g wrong. Since God is undetectable, you cannot know what God is doing at any time so you cannot hold Him responsible for anything
And now you are committing the logical fallacy of begging the question. Begging the question - Wikipedia
How is that?
How very convenient.
It is very convenient for those of us who have proven it to ourselves.
And it's exactly what we'd expect from something that doesn't exist.
No, that is what you would expect from a God who does not want to be obvious that He exists because that would be too easy for people who do not want to make an effort to search for God.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
But that does not mean God does not exist.
God could exist and desire to appear nonexistent so people will search harder to find Him..

But why should we reach that conclusion?

If I told you there was an invisible, intangible, silent, odorless and tasteless elephant in your kitchen that had made himself so undetectable because he wanted you to search really REALLY hard to find him, would you believe it? Of course not. You'd conclude that the elephant just doesn't exist and I, in my desire to explain why there's no evidence for this elephant I am motivated to believe in, come up with all sorts of ludicrous explanations.

So when you do the same thing, why should I not reach the same conclusion about God?

A perfect God does not need anyone making excuses for Him which is why I don’t make any. Humans are imperfect and that is why they need to to excuse themselves to God.

Yes you are making excuses. You made one that I just replied to, claiming that maybe God is so hard to find because he wants people to look really hard for him.

No, what you would expect from a God that does not want to be detected.

You miss my point.

I am saying that what we find is exactly what we'd find if God doesn't exist. I'm not saying it proves God doesn't exist, I will freely admit that a God who wishes to remain hidden would result in much the same evidence as a God who doesn't exist at all.

But Occam's razor would suggest that we go with the simplest solution, which is that God doesn't exist.

And so what?

And so a person who claims to be a messenger for his God Zeus is not a messenger for your God. So if the existence of messengers for yoru god is evidence that your god exists, someone who is a messenger for a different God is therefore evidence that their god exists.

Not unless God causes things to g wrong. Since God is undetectable, you cannot know what God is doing at any time so you cannot hold Him responsible for anything

Not true. Something can go wrong in a system without that being caused by the person who created the system.

How is that?

Because you are using your conclusion - that your god is the only one - as one of your premises. That's a logical fallacy.

It is very convenient for those of us who have proven it to ourselves.

But since you can't ever get someone else to check your conclusions, you have no way to make sure that your conclusion isn't influenced by some personal bias.

No, that is what you would expect from a God who does not want to be obvious that He exists because that would be too easy for people who do not want to make an effort to search for God.

And I use the same reasoning to show you that there really is the invisible elephant in your kitchen. How you do not see the flaw in it, I have no idea.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Argument from popularity? You really want to play that game? Very well. Most people in the world are non-Christians. Christianity is proven wrong because most people think it's wrong.
more like argument of the obvious

too many copies of a learning device......

you are not your own handiwork

and it doesn't matter if you are Christian of not

(I have no religion)
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
faith is the truth

Faith is a guess that one chooses to believe. That's a poor way to decide what is true about the world, and definitely not a path to truth. A path to truth should come to a single conclusion by all competent thinkers, just as properly adding a column of numbers produces only one correct or true result for all competent adders. By faith, you can believe that they add up to any sum you care to pull out of the air - which is what guessing is.

This is why there is only one periodic table of the elements, but thousands of gods and religions. Empiricism, or the consulting of demonstrable reality, is the only path to truth, by which I mean the quality that facts possess, facts being linguistic strings (sentences. paragraphs) that accurately and reproducibly map a portion of reality

Faith is beyond knowledge

No, faith doesn't rise to the level of knowledge. It is unjustified belief, and usually incorrect, which is why faith based beliefs like astrology and creationism are usually sterile, if not outright dangerous (climate denial, trusting and voting for a candidate whom all the evidence says is immoral and incompetent).

Ive had it with intolerance towards faith.

I'm not sure what you are calling intolerance. I don't care what you believe, just what you do that affects the things I care about.

But I reject faith-based thinking for myself, and don't have any use for any idea derived from the faith-based beliefs of others.

Today, I read a plea from my wife's niece on Facebook for everybody to pray for a resolution to events in the States. I gave her a like even though she and all of her relatives know I'm an atheist, and even though I consider her effort praying worthless except to comfort her. I count myself better off for not needing that comfort or any other need religious belief fills in others.

no one is really an atheist, all know God is real, but some just hate Him and want to claim He doesn’t exist, for example because they are bitter because God doesn’t act as they want.

Actually, you sound like the bitter one. You clearly don't approve of people like me - atheists.

Nor do you understand us. It is very easy for a rational skeptic and an empiricist to have no god belief (actually, there is no other possibility without believing by faith, which is abandoning the principles of critical thinking), nor hate nor be bitter at any gods. Imagine being told that about your lack of belief in Odin. You really believe in Odin, but you hate Him and want to deny His existence because you are bitter that He doesn't do what you want. If that sounds ridiculous to you, well, then you know how your comment was received.

And your conclusions are typical of the wrong ideas generated by applying reason to faith-based assumptions. You simply assume by faith tat a god exists despite the absence of sufficient supporting evidence (error 1), you assume that even though they say they don't have a god belief that they actually do (error 2), and that therefore we must all be bitter about this god. Sorry, friend, but I just don't want to think like that. It's simply never helpful or useful.

What evidence for God is built on logical fallacies?

Nice to see you here again. I always enjoy our discussions.

The term logical fallacies applies to arguments and the chain of reasoning that connects premises to conclusions. So it is arguments that are fallacious, not evidence.

The error that can be made with evidence is misinterpreting its significance, which is a mistake, but not a logical fallacy.

But every argument for a god is fallacious. I'll give you some examples:

"You can't prove there's no god, therefore there is one" - fallacy of ignorance as well as a burden of proof fallacy.

"You can't prove abiogenesis is even possible" - the other form of the fallacy of ignorance as well as another burden of proof fallacy

"The world is full of art and design, meaning that there must be an artist and designer" - this is a circular semantic argument (begging the question fallacy) and an equivocation fallacy. If a design can only be made by a designer, then you can't call what we see in the world design until we establish that such an intelligent designer exists and is its source. It's equivocation because it uses the word design two ways - any pattern including natural ones, and that made by a conscious designer. Get your target to agree that he sees designs in spiral galaxies and sand dunes, then slip your god in the back door by claiming without supporting evidence (and contrary to other evidence) that all designs need a sentient designer.

"A living cell is simply too complex to have organized itself undesigned and uncreated by an intelligent agent." - special pleading, a form of double standard that allows one to call a cell too complex to exist without an intelligent designer, but gives that intelligent designer a pass for needing an intelligent designer even though it would be orders of magnitude more complex than a cell.This is also a credulity fallacy - "I can't see how that happened, therefore it didn't, therefore God"

"The Bible correctly foretold that the universe had a beginning long before science figured that out" - Texas sharpshooter fallacy, where one overemphasizes the significance of the overlap between the biblical and scientific accounts while ignoring the much longer list of differences.
 
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