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If God exists, how can we reliably know anything about him?

serp777

Well-Known Member
It seems that its probably impossible to know anything about the mind of God. Personal revelations, right off the bat, are no good because you don't have a basis to assume that:

1. Your experience was real and was from God/wasn't a hallucination.

2. You interpreted your experience correctly.

3. It wasn't the result of an alternative explanation such as aliens running an experiment on you.

4. God wasn't lying to you or trying to deceive you.

5. Its not a trick from the devil.

Obviously there are probably other problems that have to do with the fallibility of humans. So we really can't use revelation to find anything about God. The same list could also apply to revelations in a holy books except that new problems arise because we have to make assumptions about the mental health and truthfulness of those writers or the fact that it isn't just an exaggerated legend.

SO what other methods could we use? It couldnt be science since science has no way of investigating God's mind as far as we can tell. It couldn't be from the nature of the universe since we have no way of knowing how or what God would convey through the nature of the universe. It couldn't be through our moral conscience because human moral conscience is probably just a by product of human evolution and can often be extremely erratic or questionable.

Ultimately, we're left with no way we can reliably know anything about God, which makes me wonder how anyone can think that they reasonably know anything in God's mind. Therefore, I see no reason why everyone isn't just an agnostic, or at the very least an agnostic deist who thinks God exists but doesn't know his mind or his role in the world.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
The only way to know about God is to know about Jesus. Because they are alike, and God has not given any other way.
 

allfoak

Alchemist
It is true that we cannot know all that there is to know.
We can however, come to know the laws which govern our lives.
The Principle of Mentalism

"THE ALL IS MIND; The Universe is Mental."--The Kybalion.

This Principle embodies the truth that "All is Mind." It explains that THE ALL (which is the Substantial Reality underlying all the outward manifestations and appearances which we know under the terms of "The Material Universe"; the "Phenomena of Life"; "Matter"; "Energy"; and, in short, all that is apparent to our material senses) is SPIRIT which in itself is UNKNOWABLE and UNDEFINABLE, but which may be considered and thought of as AN UNIVERSAL, INFINITE, LIVING MIND. It also explains that all the phenomenal world or universe is simply a Mental Creation of THE ALL, subject to the Laws of Created Things, and that the universe, as a whole, and in its parts or units, has its existence in the Mind of THE ALL, in which Mind we "live and move and have our being." This Principle, by establishing the Mental Nature of the Universe, easily explains all of the varied mental and psychic phenomena that occupy such a large portion of the public attention, and which, without such explanation, are non-understandable and defy scientific treatment. An understanding of this great Hermetic Principle of Mentalism enables the individual to readily grasp the laws of the Mental Universe, and to apply the same to his well-being and advancement. The Hermetic Student is enabled to apply intelligently the great Mental Laws, instead of using them in a haphazard manner. With the Master-Key in his possession, the student may unlock the many doors of the mental and psychic temple of knowledge, and enter the same freely and intelligently. This Principle explains the true nature of "Energy," "Power," and "Matter," and why and how all these are subordinate to the Mastery of Mind. One of the old Hermetic Masters wrote, long ages ago: "He who grasps the truth of the Mental Nature of the Universe is well advanced on The Path to Mastery." And these words are as true today as at the time they were first written. Without this Master-Key, Mastery is impossible, and the student knocks in vain at the many doors of The Temple.
The Kybalion
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
It seems that its probably impossible to know anything about the mind of God. Personal revelations, right off the bat, are no good because you don't have a basis to assume that:

1. Your experience was real and was from God/wasn't a hallucination.

2. You interpreted your experience correctly.

3. It wasn't the result of an alternative explanation such as aliens running an experiment on you.

4. God wasn't lying to you or trying to deceive you.

5. Its not a trick from the devil.

Obviously there are probably other problems that have to do with the fallibility of humans. So we really can't use revelation to find anything about God. The same list could also apply to revelations in a holy books except that new problems arise because we have to make assumptions about the mental health and truthfulness of those writers or the fact that it isn't just an exaggerated legend.

SO what other methods could we use? It couldnt be science since science has no way of investigating God's mind as far as we can tell. It couldn't be from the nature of the universe since we have no way of knowing how or what God would convey through the nature of the universe. It couldn't be through our moral conscience because human moral conscience is probably just a by product of human evolution and can often be extremely erratic or questionable.

Ultimately, we're left with no way we can reliably know anything about God, which makes me wonder how anyone can think that they reasonably know anything in God's mind. Therefore, I see no reason why everyone isn't just an agnostic, or at the very least an agnostic deist who thinks God exists but doesn't know his mind or his role in the world.

You have just described why and how god does not exist. However, thats just thinking from a view god is an external entity. Not even Cathoics believe that hence the physical Eucharist. Most christians dont believe that hence the physical jesus Christ. It seems there is always something physical idolizing the invisible and/or making a way of trying to describe what isnt there as if it is.

Then you have the problem with knowing psychology. There are many reasons why humans believe (for some reason believers dont say "know") god exist. Like the thirst for knowing why we are here. Though I never asked the question, i can see how god exist as a product and answer to the question. You cant question and invisible being. In christianity you cant look him in the face. In judaism, even spelling his name in causal conversation is avoided.

So, god is an experience. He is proven through and defined by our experiences of our search to complete our inner selves, our life, find meaning in life, purpose, why we suffer, and/ nit limited to. Its a combination of our thoughts and that umf feeling when we think we figured something out. Its the Zen in life. The Tao. And many other names.

Weirdly enough, christianity is the only religion I know that "equates" god to a human. Some religions see religious mainly priests as go betweens but not god himself. The experience through divination etc is god.

God exist. You cant separate god from culture, tradition, and language because he is defined and shaped by it. Whether we call it myth or believe in by faith, the experience and testimonies is god. Its what makes us move and brought us into being.

Better accurate and concrete word to describe god is energy. But many find that impersonal. Substitute god for the word energy in the bible and try not to personify it (energy cant get jealous). But it does cause neurons to fire and depending on our external situation, it can make the neurons moved by energy move in a way that causes emotions of jealousy. Temptation is caused by energy. The brain works on energy. The source is energy.

Energy exists and it has been proven. You described how god doesnt exist. If you were to pretend, how do you think he would apart from human, human thought, and desire?
 
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David T

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
It seems that its probably impossible to know anything about the mind of God. Personal revelations, right off the bat, are no good because you don't have a basis to assume that:

1. Your experience was real and was from God/wasn't a hallucination.

2. You interpreted your experience correctly.

3. It wasn't the result of an alternative explanation such as aliens running an experiment on you.

4. God wasn't lying to you or trying to deceive you.

5. Its not a trick from the devil.

Obviously there are probably other problems that have to do with the fallibility of humans. So we really can't use revelation to find anything about God. The same list could also apply to revelations in a holy books except that new problems arise because we have to make assumptions about the mental health and truthfulness of those writers or the fact that it isn't just an exaggerated legend.

SO what other methods could we use? It couldnt be science since science has no way of investigating God's mind as far as we can tell. It couldn't be from the nature of the universe since we have no way of knowing how or what God would convey through the nature of the universe. It couldn't be through our moral conscience because human moral conscience is probably just a by product of human evolution and can often be extremely erratic or questionable.

Ultimately, we're left with no way we can reliably know anything about God, which makes me wonder how anyone can think that they reasonably know anything in God's mind. Therefore, I see no reason why everyone isn't just an agnostic, or at the very least an agnostic deist who thinks God exists but doesn't know his mind or his role in the world.
Why do you care? I bring this up with people who want to engage religion, and i ask why? I have yet to receive a single decent answer. There is absolutely no reason to even care enough to and yet people do. If i wasnt so numinous i wouldnt at all. What is numinous? Superficiality debating superficiality which is all you seem to understand about the topic is just evangdlicalism at its very worst.
 
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Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Ima play Devil's Advocate. Assuming that you're talking about the Christian god, before you say that we can't know anything about god, first, let me ask, what is a god? Many believers say god is love or another abstract emotion. They title him as a creator but I can title myself a mother but that doesn't make me a mother. So what is a god?
1. Your experience was real and was from God/wasn't a hallucination.

We all have experiences that aren't "proven" my evidence. We assume experiences are real because of a combination of factors. For example, if you believe your mother loves you, you have no concrete evidence that she does. You are not her. Yet, how she behaves and what she says (for sake of point) makes you believe she cares about you regardless if it is true or not.

Have you ever felt, from out of no where, you are grateful to be alive? Or a moment that you smile and just are happy where you are now?

If so, that feeling wasn't from anything external. What you felt was a combination of emotions that you interpret as a good feeling versus a bad one.

God is the same way. Some people experience god and they turn away because of what he represents. Others draw closer to the experience and find good things that god represents. It depends on how one sees themselves, their lives, and their need for something greater. All of these desires, experiences, and emotions exist. They can be proven.

2. You interpreted your experience correctly.

Which leads me to interpreting god correctly. We have so many definitions of god from inner consciousness to an entity; both, of which, are confusing to me. But if you take your mind from the Bible and see god as an experience-because that is how people talk about him is via their experiences-you have to think by whose criteria are these experiences incorrect?

I feel Catholicism is the correct "version" of christianity; and, one needs the sacraments of christ in order to be christian. I know this by experience, biblical study, and christian history. If you were to say my experiences aren't true, by whose or what criteria are you going by and is that criteria based your experiences and study?

Wouldn't it be better to judge whether our experiences are real on the criteria we use since religion isn't math to where we can verify facts in a universal matter?

If I want to know that jesus is god, I'd get probably hundred different types of answers. When I read the bible, jesus is not god. Since I am not christian, whose criteria and interpretation of truth should I go by, what I read or what a christian reads? What basis do I find as an outsider what is true and what is false?

3. It wasn't the result of an alternative explanation such as aliens running an experiment on you.

:confused:

4. God wasn't lying to you or trying to deceive you.

This sounds like from many who were indoctrinated. Many believers don't blame god for lying or deceiving them. They blame satan.

5. Its not a trick from the devil.

On that note, the devil or satan is a personification of our temptations. Try replacing temptation or sin for every where it says satan or devil in scripture.

Temptation exists in all of us. Aka. The devil exists. Yes, temptation can trick us if we fall into it.

Obviously there are probably other problems that have to do with the fallibility of humans. So we really can't use revelation to find anything about God. The same list could also apply to revelations in a holy books except that new problems arise because we have to make assumptions about the mental health and truthfulness of those writers or the fact that it isn't just an exaggerated legend.

Here's another place where your argument falls short. God exist because of the fallibility of humans. If we were all perfect, would there be a god?

It does seem odd, though, to trust people back then before we trust people today as if people back when are more "spiritual" than people today. I think it's because today we are neck and neck with life as it really is. However, we can't go back in time to experience life then; so, it's hard to prove it either way.

SO what other methods could we use? It couldnt be science since science has no way of investigating God's mind as far as we can tell. It couldn't be from the nature of the universe since we have no way of knowing how or what God would convey through the nature of the universe. It couldn't be through our moral conscience because human moral conscience is probably just a by product of human evolution and can often be extremely erratic or questionable.

The science of psychology, theology, history, cultural anthropology, geology, and physiology explains what we know about the "god experience."

Psychology tells us how god is shaped by our needs for an other or to be fulfilled in whatever way.

Theology explores how religion plays a part in how we defined what fulfills us.

History is very important to many humans as we look back to our origins to define who we are in the present and predict where we may go in the future.

Cultural anthropology shows god because our religions or worldviews are shaped by our culture, language, and environment. This helps us make sense of the world, life, death, and our place in it.

Geology (and all the environmental -ologies) shows that we are taken care of by the earth, planets, and universe as a whole. It gives us a sense of "we are taken care of" however we define or phrase it. By this physical confirmation, everything else falls into place.

Physiology is another cornerstone of how we feel physically (the actual energy/god) when we are fulfilled and psychology is responsible for interpreting whether those experiences come from god, our culture (and the study of it) defines our experiences so our interpretations reflect how we live with ourselves, others, and our environment.

Ultimately, we're left with no way we can reliably know anything about God, which makes me wonder how anyone can think that they reasonably know anything in God's mind. Therefore, I see no reason why everyone isn't just an agnostic, or at the very least an agnostic deist who thinks God exists but doesn't know his mind or his role in the world.

How do you know god, learn about yourself-the questions you ask (what is my purpose? How do I want to live? Whatever comes to mind) Delve into the psychology of your brain.

It doesn't hurt to study theology and the patterns of religions and how they try to answer these questions either by belief and/or practice.

On that note, studying history in general can give you a non-bias sense of how what we believe and practice is not isolated but actual part of history. With that said, christianity is just a part of history as buddhism and every other religion. Jesus isn't special.

Cultural anthropology is a nice subject. However, best way is to actually travel and talk with people of other religious and cultural backgrounds you may not be accustomed to.

Geology tells us everything is forming, creating, and forming. It shows heat or energy is one of the cornerstones of this process; and, if "god" created the earth, god is energy nothing more.

Physiology-don't under estimate the ol' gut feeling. You may say gut but others say it's god. Look outside the box and associate the lingo with the science, history, and culture behind it.
 

Stevicus

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
Ultimately, we're left with no way we can reliably know anything about God, which makes me wonder how anyone can think that they reasonably know anything in God's mind. Therefore, I see no reason why everyone isn't just an agnostic, or at the very least an agnostic deist who thinks God exists but doesn't know his mind or his role in the world.

Yes, I think this pretty much reflects my view.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
If God exists, how can we reliably know anything about him?

Well I'll take a stab at this question from my pantheistic and non-dual (God and creation are not-two) perspective.

The OP is coming from the angle that God is something separate from us. I feel God/Brahman is the spark of consciousness in all of us. To know about God we then need to look internally not externally. To quiet the mind from all the external noise of our lives is really the way to learn more about our God nature. Those most proficient at that tell us God is being-bliss-awareness and that Oneness with our God center is furthered through love and peace. It may sound both new agey and old-fashioned but through practicing more peace and love we learn more about God.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
Unlike modern-day self-help books which are constantly changed or updated, the Bible always remains the same.
So, the basic principle of 'reap what we sow' still stands.
When we live by the Bible standards or principles we reap good things in life.
 

buddhist

Well-Known Member
It seems that its probably impossible to know anything about the mind of God. Personal revelations, right off the bat, are no good because you don't have a basis to assume that:

1. Your experience was real and was from God/wasn't a hallucination.

2. You interpreted your experience correctly.

3. It wasn't the result of an alternative explanation such as aliens running an experiment on you.

4. God wasn't lying to you or trying to deceive you.

5. Its not a trick from the devil.

Obviously there are probably other problems that have to do with the fallibility of humans. So we really can't use revelation to find anything about God. The same list could also apply to revelations in a holy books except that new problems arise because we have to make assumptions about the mental health and truthfulness of those writers or the fact that it isn't just an exaggerated legend.

SO what other methods could we use? It couldnt be science since science has no way of investigating God's mind as far as we can tell. It couldn't be from the nature of the universe since we have no way of knowing how or what God would convey through the nature of the universe. It couldn't be through our moral conscience because human moral conscience is probably just a by product of human evolution and can often be extremely erratic or questionable.

Ultimately, we're left with no way we can reliably know anything about God, which makes me wonder how anyone can think that they reasonably know anything in God's mind. Therefore, I see no reason why everyone isn't just an agnostic, or at the very least an agnostic deist who thinks God exists but doesn't know his mind or his role in the world.
Agreed ... this is why the primary approach of early Buddhism is to investigate and control our own personal, internal processes which generate our experience of the world, rather than attempt to impose our private interpretations to answer the "why" of the world (e.g. "God!").
 

Jonathan Ainsley Bain

Logical Positivist
It seems that its probably impossible to know anything about the mind of God. Personal revelations, right off the bat, are no good because you don't have a basis to assume that:

1. Your experience was real and was from God/wasn't a hallucination.

2. You interpreted your experience correctly.

3. It wasn't the result of an alternative explanation such as aliens running an experiment on you.

4. God wasn't lying to you or trying to deceive you.

5. Its not a trick from the devil.

Obviously there are probably other problems that have to do with the fallibility of humans. So we really can't use revelation to find anything about God. The same list could also apply to revelations in a holy books except that new problems arise because we have to make assumptions about the mental health and truthfulness of those writers or the fact that it isn't just an exaggerated legend.

SO what other methods could we use? It couldnt be science since science has no way of investigating God's mind as far as we can tell. It couldn't be from the nature of the universe since we have no way of knowing how or what God would convey through the nature of the universe. It couldn't be through our moral conscience because human moral conscience is probably just a by product of human evolution and can often be extremely erratic or questionable.

Ultimately, we're left with no way we can reliably know anything about God, which makes me wonder how anyone can think that they reasonably know anything in God's mind. Therefore, I see no reason why everyone isn't just an agnostic, or at the very least an agnostic deist who thinks God exists but doesn't know his mind or his role in the world.

The short answer is : Math.
It always is what it is and is never anything else other than what it is.
By extension: Logic.
Example:
By asking your question you have already assumed that an answer is possible.
If there was no answer, then your question ceases to exist.

But when one experiences Revelation, and everything within it obeys all logic and is even based on pure math,
then that is quite different to illusion, which is always full of contradiction.

The tricky bit, is the contrary nature of free will.
But this is necessary for without it there is no uniqueness to different parts of the Universe.
The flaws in our thinking make us individuals.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
The short answer is : Math.
It always is what it is and is never anything else other than what it is.
By extension: Logic.
Example:
By asking your question you have already assumed that an answer is possible.
If there was no answer, then your question ceases to exist.

But when one experiences Revelation, and everything within it obeys all logic and is even based on pure math,
then that is quite different to illusion, which is always full of contradiction.

The tricky bit, is the contrary nature of free will.
But this is necessary for without it there is no uniqueness to different parts of the Universe.
The flaws in our thinking make us individuals.

By asking your question you have already assumed that an answer is possible.
Nope, I don't even claim to know if its possible or not. Saying its possible assumes you know some way of calculating probabilities and I don't know how to calculate the probability of God's existence.

If there was no answer, then your question ceases to exist.
How does my question cease to exist?

But when one experiences Revelation, and everything within it obeys all logic and is even based on pure math,
then that is quite different to illusion, which is always full of contradiction.

its a non sequitor to assume that because something is logical and based on pure math that therefore it is a divine revelation that tells us something about God. A mathematical proof fits that description but isn't a revelation that tells us something about God. The other problem is how do you know your presuppositions are reasonable and how have you demonstrated that a revelation is in fact logical and contains no contradictions?

The tricky bit, is the contrary nature of free will.
You're asserting that free will exists and that we can properly define it or that we don't have some kind of partial free will that occasionally manifests itself..

But this is necessary for without it there is no uniqueness to different parts of the Universe.

How is this related to justifying the reliability of a revelation and what does uniqueness of the different parts of the universe have to do with it

The flaws in our thinking make us individuals.
So if we didn't have flaws in our thinking then we wouldn't be individuals? Are those of us who have the most flawed thoughts more of an individual than those with less flawed thoughts? Us being individuals doesn't have anything to do with how flawed our thinking is and I don't see why you're assuming that.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And how can we reliably know about Jesus?

You can know enough, Like Jesus came here healing the sick, raising dead people, wasn't charging for his services...as opposed other things such as eating people and taking their money etc. Like if people tried to learn about God from watching creation they might look at a great white shark eating a seal and get the wrong idea. So we see by Jesus that God is not like that, but humans corrupted with sin are sometimes like the great white shark taking what they can from whoever they can.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
You can know enough, Like Jesus came here healing the sick, raising dead people, wasn't charging for his services...as opposed other things such as eating people and taking their money etc. Like if people tried to learn about God from watching creation they might look at a great white shark eating a seal and get the wrong idea. So we see by Jesus that God is not like that, but humans corrupted with sin are sometimes like the great white shark taking what they can from whoever they can.

Like Jesus came here healing the sick, raising dead people, wasn't charging for his services...as opposed other things such as eating people and taking their money etc.

Um check my first post because if you read it with respect to this post you would find that my next questions would be: how do we know that Jesus actually healed the sick and raised the dead? How can we confirm it wasn't just a legend that was gradually more exaggerated throughout the ages? And how do we know Jesus wasn't an alien or the result of some other alternative explanation? How can you reliably demonstrate anything about what Jesus did? After all the Jews at the time very much doubted him.

So we see by Jesus that God is not like that, but humans corrupted with sin are sometimes like the great white shark taking what they can from whoever they can.

How do you know God cares about morality or is indeed a perfectly good being? How do you know he doesn't grapple with moral problems himself, which would mean we are made in his image in this sense that we also grapple with moral problems.
 

Kemosloby

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Um check my first post because if you read it with respect to this post you would find that my next questions would be: how do we know that Jesus actually healed the sick and raised the dead? How can we confirm it wasn't just a legend that was gradually more exaggerated throughout the ages? And how do we know Jesus wasn't an alien or the result of some other alternative explanation? How can you reliably demonstrate anything about what Jesus did? After all the Jews at the time very much doubted him.



How do you know God cares about morality or is indeed a perfectly good being? How do you know he doesn't grapple with moral problems himself, which would mean we are made in his image in this sense that we also grapple with moral problems.

I suppose you can only answer that yourself, as a judge of character, who do you believe. Do you believe the Jews who were in positions of power, or the fishermen, the working class.
 

serp777

Well-Known Member
Unlike modern-day self-help books which are constantly changed or updated, the Bible always remains the same.
So, the basic principle of 'reap what we sow' still stands.
When we live by the Bible standards or principles we reap good things in life.

The bible has actually been translated and modified several times. Biblical cannon was established via many revisions and debates on what the bible should contain. Some texts were included while others weren't included. And why is something that doesn't improve or evolve suddenly a good thing? I think the bible would be superior if it had been updated and changed to fit the morals of the time.

When we live by the Bible standards or principles we reap good things in life.

So how many witches have you exterminated? Have you followed the proper guidelines on linen clothes? Have you decimated any Amalekites yet? Also apparently rape and slavery aren't considered reprehensible in the bible--at least to the point where you'd have to pay a bit of money to the father of the woman and then marry the girl you just raped. There also isn't any statement made against pedophilia, so perhaps you can explain to me why we should live by the standards of the bible. I'm personally against pedophilia, slavery, etc and therefore I could not live by the principles of the bible. And you'd better not say you only follow the new testament because Jesus often references the old testament--he talked about Sodom and Gomorrah, he talked about Genesis, he talked about the ten commandments and many other parts of the old testament. So you cannot reasonably exclude the old testament because Jesus clearly considers it important.
 
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