firedragon
Veteran Member
Interesting. Is it the Bahai creed that everyone in the world from any theology could achieve salvation by default or are there any conditions at all?
Thanks.
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If God is loving and omnibenevolent why would God…
- Thread starter Trailblazer
- Start date
Thanks.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
I do not know what you mean by salvation. Saved from what?
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firedragon
Veteran Member
Haha. Salvation is a place holder for "going to heaven". So sometimes people tend to throw the word out like that. So salvation in this context means "saved from damnation". Vis a vis, hell.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Baha'is do not believe than anyone is damned to hell by God.
We believe that heaven is nearness to God and hell is separation from God, so to answer your question, yes, there are conditions.
firedragon
Veteran Member
Hmm. Thus, the Qur'an speaking about hellfire is metaphorical?
rocala
Well-Known Member
Well said Spice, I could not agree more. When I first read those words many years ago, they hit me as a very us and them statement. Almost arrogant. Your interpretation changes it so well and makes absolute sense.
Bible tells eternal life is for righteous. It is not about right religion, but about right understanding.
These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.
Matt. 25:46
For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Romans 6:23
It is possible to count a person righteous, even if he has not heard of Jesus, by this:
For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without the law. As many as have sinned under the law will be judged by the law. For it isn't the hearers of the law who are righteous before God, but the doers of the law will be justified for when Gentiles who don't have the law do by nature the things of the law, these, not having the law, are a law to themselves, in that they show the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience testifying with them, and their thoughts among themselves accusing or else excusing them in the day when God will judge the secrets of men, according to my Gospel, by Jesus Christ.
Romans 2:12-16
This all happens through Jesus, therefore Jesus is the way. But, it does not mean that people who are not disciples of Jesus (=Christian), don't have a chance.
ppp
Well-Known Member
You have an opinion that there is a being.
You have an opinion that this being has a nature that comports with being able to do anything and everything with no limitations.
You have an opinion that the being has "perfect or unlimited goodness" and is "kind and generous towards everyone and everything."
You have am opinion that all of the events in this world are not in contradiction with the existence of that being.
I will reiterate what I said above.
Everything you have stated is based merely on your opinions. Please stop treating the opinions of others as lesser merely on the basis that they are opinions.
Now as to your question.
I don't care about any particular series of actions. It is the event that matters. If I saw a child being sexually assaulted in an alley there are many series of actions I could take to stop it. My benevolence is not necessarily a function of the course of actions that I choose, but of my intervention in stopping that assault.
Anyone who can stop such an action and fails to do so is not benevolent. Full stop.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Who knows what goes on in the mind of TB, but... I think there is an easy and obvious answer to why a God that is supposed to be all-loving would make Christianity the one and only true religion and Jesus the only way to heaven... Because Christians wrote the story.
The problem for Baha'is now is how to make sense of Christianity. A religion that Baha'i claim is a true "God" given religion.
And that turns out to be pretty easy too... Most everything that Baha'is don't agree with is said to be symbolic.
Salvation, resurrection, Satan, hell and the rest of it, although the NT makes it sound like all that stuff is literally true, for Baha'is, it isn't. And that is how Baha'is handle those issues with the Quran and the Scriptures of other religions also.
Which, to me, actually sort of makes the Baha'i Faith the one and only true religion. They are the only ones that know the true meaning and interpretation of all the other Scriptures of all the other religions.
And maybe, but why would a loving God make all his other religions in a way to lead the followers to have wrong interpretations and conclusions as to what is the truth?
How different would things have been if Satan, hell, the resurrection and all the rest of those kinds of things were understood from the beginning to be symbolic and not literally true.
But now the big question... But now we can trust this God in what he says through Baha'u'llah?
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Show me where I ever did that.
In your opinion God can stop any action because God is omnipotent.
That is only your opinion, not a fact. Full stop.
According to my beliefs, God is not a human being so God is not 'anyone.'
That means that God is not a person who can play Superman and come to the rescue.
Whenever you compare God to a human and expect God to behave like a human you are committing the fallacy of false equivalence, because God is not equivalent to a human.
False equivalence is a logical fallacy in which an equivalence is drawn between two subjects based on flawed or false reasoning. This fallacy is categorized as a fallacy of inconsistency.[1] A colloquial expression of false equivalency is "comparing apples and oranges".
This fallacy is committed when one shared trait between two subjects is assumed to show equivalence, especially in order of magnitude, when equivalence is not necessarily the logical result.[2] False equivalence is a common result when an anecdotal similarity is pointed out as equal, but the claim of equivalence doesn't bear scrutiny because the similarity is based on oversimplification or ignorance of additional factors.
False equivalence - Wikipedia
The Meaning of Comparing Apples to Oranges When you're comparing apples to oranges, you're comparing two things that are fundamentally different and, therefore, shouldn't be compared.
Comparing Apples to Oranges - Idiom, Meaning & Origin
ppp
Well-Known Member
As I did this less than 18 hours ago, I am not taking this demand seriously.
This is not a coherent series of statements.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
That's a good point, but you cannot say the same thing about the Baha'is because we did not write any of the Baha'i Writings.
As a Baha'i, I do not believe that Christianity is a God-given religion. I believe it is a religion created by men.
In my opinion, the Baha'i Faith is not the only true religion but it is the only religion that has not been changed or corrupted by man.
Baha'is do not have the true meaning and interpretation of all the other Scriptures of all the other religions. We only have the meanings that have been explained by Baha'ullah or Abdu'l-Baha, which we consider true, and that is pretty much limited to the Bible.
God did not make those other religions that way.
The leaders of those religions led the followers to have wrong interpretations and conclusions as to what is the truth.
I do not believe it was God's intention that those kinds of things were understood from the beginning to be symbolic and not literally true, but I believe it was God's intention that they be understood that way now, which was one reason that God sent Baha'u'llah.
That is a big question and one I hope you find the answer to.
Not everyone is going to come up with the same answer.
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
In Baha'i Faith, we do not believe that life after death has only two states, Hell or Heaven. We believe there are infinite spiritual worlds. Depending on the state of the soul, it will live in one of the infinite worlds of God.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Being "far" from God might be worse than the Christian belief about hell. I would still suspect the hell was created by religious leaders to try and scare people into obeying the rules of the religion.
And, speaking of "creating" the beliefs of a religion, why wouldn't the writers of the NT create a religion that was the "only" truth? Believe in Jesus or you will burn in hell. Believe in Jesus and you will be saved. That is that your sins will be forgiven, and you will be able to be admitted in God's heavenly paradise.
It's easy for some Baha'is, or probably most, to say that the NT is not literally true, but what about the Quran? As mentioned earlier, it too has verses about heaven and hell. So, they too were meant to be taken symbolically?
InvestigateTruth
Veteran Member
Hell and Heaven is manifested after Day of Resurrection. Just as Bahais believe"Resurrection" means, Manifestation of a New Faith, Heaven denotes entering the new Faith. It is not about life after death. The meaning Heaven is "Bahai Faith". Baha'u'llah referred to His Religion as Paradise. Hell, means, the opposite. It means "disbelief"
Spiritual life after death, is not Heaven or Hell.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Indeed, Baha'ullah defined resurrection very differently from what Christians believe it means.
“The Day of God’s Revelation is the Day of the most great Resurrection. We cherish the hope that, quaffing from the choice wine of divine inspiration and the pure waters of heavenly grace, thou mayest attain the station of discovery and witnessing, and behold, both outwardly and inwardly, all that which thou hast mentioned.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, Tablet of the Seven Questions, pp. 62- 63
Thanks, I never heard it described that way, but that is in the Writings.
“At the time of the appearance and manifestation of the rays of the Daystar of Truth, all occupy the same station. God then proclaimeth that which He willeth, and whoso heareth His call and acknowledgeth His truth is accounted among the inhabitants of Paradise. Such a soul hath traversed the Bridge, the Balance, and all that hath been recorded regarding the Day of Resurrection, and hath reached his destination.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, Tablet of the Seven Questions, p. 62
“His glory be with thee, inasmuch as thou hast journeyed from God unto God, and entered within the borders of the Court of unfading splendor—the Spot which mortal man can never describe. Therein hath the breeze of holiness, laden with the love of thy Lord, stirred thy spirit within thee, and the waters of understanding have washed from thee the stains of remoteness and ungodliness. Thou hast gained admittance into the Paradise of God’s Remembrance, through thy recognition of Him Who is the Embodiment of that Remembrance amongst men.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 302-303
According to my understanding there are rewards and punishments in this life and in the next life. Spiritual life after death is nearness to God, which can be equated with Heaven (Paradise). Separation from God can be equated with Hell.
“The fifth question concerneth the Bridge of Ṣiráṭ, Paradise, and Hell. The Prophets of God have come in truth and have spoken the truth. Whatsoever the Messenger of God hath announced hath been and will be made manifest. The world is established upon the foundations of reward and punishment. Knowledge and understanding have ever affirmed and will continue to affirm the reality of Paradise and Hell, for reward and punishment require their existence. Paradise signifieth first and foremost the good-pleasure of God. Whosoever attaineth His good-pleasure is reckoned and recorded among the inhabitants of the most exalted paradise and will attain, after the ascension of his soul, that which pen and ink are powerless to describe. For them that are endued with insight and have fixed their gaze upon the Most Sublime Vision, the Bridge, the Balance, Paradise, Hellfire, and all that hath been mentioned and recorded in the Sacred Scriptures are clear and manifest.”
The Tabernacle of Unity, Tablet of the Seven Questions, p. 62
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Truthseeker
Non-debating member when I can help myself
There are all sorts of non-believers. There are atheists who don't believe in God, there are those who believe in God, but not in any religion, and there are non-believers in Baha'u'llah, but believe in a religion we believe was revealed by God, though there are also religions where it is undetermined if it was revealed by God. There are religions we know are not revealed by God, but advocate righteous actions for the believers.
Anyway, to go through the categories, if an atheist has good actions, that is quite different from an atheist that has bad actions. The atheist who has good actions are closer to God that those who have bad actions. Being far from God spiritually is hell. We have no idea how much closer to God a good atheist is, only God knows. Also God does whatever he wills to transform or not transform each souls condition. This is not contrary to justice, it is about the degree of mercy each soul receives.
Those who believe in a religion revealed by God, but not Baha'i, will be closer to God than atheists depending on their behaviour and whether they attack Baha'i, in my opinion. Actually probably it is no different for those who believe in a religion not revealed by God but advocate righteous actions by the believers and the same for those who believe in religions where it is undetermined if it was revealed by God but advocate righteous actions.
In all of these, if God wills the soul can be elevated closer to God.
In the Baha'i Faith, you see, the situation is not binary between absolute hell and absolute Paradise.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Until Muhammad and now with Baha'u'llah, what did people have to go by?
Once Christianity became the dominant religion, the people were told that Jesus was the only way. The God, the Father, did them a big favor... he was not going to judge them for their sins, but forgive them of their sins. All they had to do is believe in his Son Jesus.
And they were also told that if they don't, they would be cast into hell with Satan and the demons. They were told that Jesus had indeed risen from the dead and was coming back to establish God's kingdom on Earth.
What other religion was there that challenged the supremacy of Christianity? Did anyone care, or even know about the religions of India and China or Japan and other Far Eastern countries? And when Europe did discover them, they wrote them off as being false religions.
People were killed for not believing exactly how they were told. People were tortured and killed if they didn't convert.
Then came the Protestant Reformation. We are still dealing with the dominant Protestant sects that firmly believe Jesus is the only way and the Bible is literally true.
So, how could an all-loving God allow this? Because he allowed a supposed "true" religion, Christianity, to teach the world that their beliefs are the only true ones. And he allowed the followers of Jesus to write the story about Jesus.
Now the Baha'is are trying to undo all the indoctrination that has been going on for the last 2000 years. But, as is apparent to Baha'is, some of us don't trust them. But some of us don't trust the Christians either.
Before Jesus was Moses and Abraham and so on and those people had their path to God although Jesus and Christianity were unknown at the time.
Abraham was told His seed would inherit the earth. Baha’u’llah and the Bab and Muhammad were all direct descendants of Abraham.
Jesus is the truth but not the only truth. He did speak of His return and with a new name in the Book of Revelation. So although there are claims of ‘only’, before Jesus came other Prophets Who guided the people to God and there Is promised others Who will guide us in the future according to the Bible.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Unless you're a Jew or Christian that literally believes the Bible is the inerrant and infallible Word of God, why believe it? And I'd imagine most all Baha'is don't believe the Bible literally. So, why believe the stories about Moses and Abraham?
What exactly was this "path" to God that Abraham preached? And Moses is all about the Law. A "path" that the NT says couldn't work and didn't work. That the purpose of the Law was to show people they could never be perfect enough on their own merit to earn their way to heaven. For the Christian, the Law could never save anyone. Salvation was only through believing that Jesus paid the price for your sins.
And what does the Baha'i Faith do? It puts us right back into a bunch of laws.
Yes, the Children of Israel. And now, I guess, it is mainly the descendants of Judah, the Jews. But why not make this about the prophets of the Baha'i Faith and Muhammad.
And I suppose that we know exactly who is a direct descendant of Abraham? Somewhere there is a list of all of them? Which seems odd that someone has kept all those records all these centuries. And also, as if Abraham was a real, historical person.
Or... people wrote a story about him that made him the only "truth". But other people wrote stories about other people and other "truths". But how true are any of them? The Baha'i Faith itself makes a lot of the beliefs found in most all of the other religions as being wrong.
But Baha'is soften that a little bit by saying that it "was" the truth, but it was misunderstood and misinterpreted. And now it doesn't matter anyway, because the "new" truth from God has been revealed by the Baha'i prophet.
That all fine... for Baha'is. You want to believe, go ahead. But the problem is, like with so many other "truths", Baha'is have to push, or "teach", that their truth is "The Truth."
Just like Born-Again Christians are told they must spread the "Word". The truth... that Jesus Christ is Lord.... and no one else. No Muhammad. No Baha'u'llah. Just Jesus.
And a lot of each read about him. Studied with Christians. Tried to believe, and found it wasn't our truth. But is the Baha'i Faith any better? And any different?