Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Let's see if we agree on the meaning of John 14:20. To me this speaks directly of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
What day do you think John is talking about when he says, 'At that day'?
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If God is our Father
- Thread starter Iymus
- Start date
Let's see if we agree on the meaning of John 14:20. To me this speaks directly of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
What day do you think John is talking about when he says, 'At that day'?
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
And in conjunction with other verses in the bible which likewise say:
Malachi 2:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Have we not all one Father?
Has not one God created us?
Why do we deal treacherously with one another
By profaning the covenant of the fathers?
Who is the one God? Is it the Son or is it the Father as the Bible says?
Your verse in the right context:
2 Corinthians 5:16-19 New King James Version (NKJV)
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
This is about how God reconciles with man, and that is through Jesus Christ.
It does not speak if the Spirit of God dwells in Christ, Christ becomes God
and it does not all also say that if the Spirit of God dwells in men, men will become God
This is about how God reconciles with men and that is being "in Chirst"
If a person, religion is not "in Christ" then there is no reconciliation.
It is not an argument that God the Father is the one true God - it is the truth.
Mark 12:29-32 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
Jesus Christ himself believed that the Lord our God, the Lord is one. He did not say the Lord our God is two or three or the trinity. No. Christ said our God is one. And the scribe who spoke to Jesus shared the same belief. How come after Jesus was taken to heaven and after the apostles died, God became more than one?
So why was he resurrected?
Who resurrected him?
This is what we can read from the Bible:
Acts 4:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
Who raised Jesus Christ of Nazareth from the dead? Was it God the Trinity?
This is again we can read from the Bible:
Galatians 1:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Did Christ say accept me as your Lord and you will be saved?
I believe it is the Charismatic preachers who are teaching this.
But what did Christ really say?
John 10:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
You have to enter through Jesus to be saved.
Now how do you do that? He is in heaven and we are on earth.
Matthew 16:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Jesus Christ has a church and Hell cannot over come it, hence anyone who enters will be saved.
He did not say just accept me as your personal savior and you will be alright.
You have to look for it.
Luke 13:24-30 New International Version (NIV)
“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
And I bet there will be people saying "We accepted you as your Lord and Savior"
The Jews who merely accepted Jesus as the Messiah won't be saved.
I am sorry, it is not enough.
Remember what Jesus said?
John 15:5 New International Version (NIV)
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
How can one accept Jesus as the Messiah be saved while being apart from him?
Again we look for the answers in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and not from our personal opinions
Matthew 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
These are not a few people as Christ said they will be MANY on that day
These people are "Christians" in their own belief
Maybe they just accepted Jesus as Lord and savior
These people preached in the name of Jesus
These people drove out demons in the name of Jesus
These people performed many miracles in the name of Jesus
Yet....
74x12
Well-Known Member
Well He didn't make Himself.
Iymus
Active Member
1. For us to agree on John 14:20 we would have to agree on who the speaker is and who the audience is. With that information we would then be able to identify the pronouns and who is being spoken to directly; whether it be the disciples or whether it be the three that bear witness in heaven. I recommend also reading John Chapter 17.
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
Joh 17:11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
2. I believe I have the concept but better for wiser men to break it down. Is something I have to work on myself.
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MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Knowing the only true God matters
Knowing that the only true God sent his Son, Jesus Christ equally matters
Without that knowledge:
Now with regards to accepting Jesus Christ as your personal savior, is that the proper way?
Let us read from the Bible, not from some opinion of some pastor who likes to say things not found in the Bible
What did Jesus say about this?
John 10:1 New International Version (NIV)
“Very truly I tell you Pharisees, anyone who does not enter the sheep pen by the gate, but climbs in by some other way, is a thief and a robber.
Well Jesus said you have to enter the sheep pen
If you refuse to enter the sheep pen but climbs in some other way - like just accepting Jesus Christ
What did Jesus say about those people ? Thief and a robber.
Now what is this sheep pen, Jesus was talking about?
So what church do you belong?
Is it the Church of America? Well it wasn't the one purchased by the blood of Jesus
Is it the Church of Allah? Well it wasn't the one purchased by the blood of Jesus
Is it the Pacific Ocean Church? If it is not not the Church of Christ, then that is going bonkers on Judgement Day
A lot of churches are doing baptism
And boy they do not adhere to what the bible says
But this is another topic because the topic here is about God the Father
Why The Lord Jesus Christ Is Not God:
GOD IS NOT MAN AND
MAN IS NOT GOD
THE LORD JESUS Christ is not God because His Father alone is the true God. Another biblical evidence proving that the Lord Jesus Christ is not God is His explicit pronouncement that He is a Man because the Bible clearly tells us that God is not Man and Man is not God.
GOD IS NOT MAN AND MAN IS NOT GOD
The Lord God Himself explicitly said that He is not Man:
“I will not execute the fierceness of My anger; I will not again destroy Ephraim. FOR I AM GOD, AND NOT MAN, The Holy One in your midst; And I will not come with terror.” (Hoseah 11:9 NKJV, emphasis mine)
The Lord God also said that Man is not God:
“Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyre, Thus saith the Lord Jehovah: Because thy heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a god, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet THOU ART MAN, AND NOT GOD, though thou didst set thy heart as the heart of God.” (Ezekiel 28:2 ASV, emphasis mine)
God is not Man because God is spirit:
“God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth.” (John 4:24 NKJV)
A spirit has no flesh and bones:
“And He said to them, ‘Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES as you see I have.” (Luke 24:38-39 NKJV)
The Lord God is a spirit, thus, He does not have flesh and bones. While man is not a spirit because man does have flesh and bones:
“And the LORD said, "My Spirit shall not strive with man forever, for he is indeed flesh; yet his days shall be one hundred and twenty years.” (Genesis 6:3 NKJV)
Thus, God is not man because God is a spirit, He does not have flesh and bones, while man is not a spirit, he does have flesh and bones.
This biblical truth makes the belief that Jesus Christ is true God and true man an absurdity. If Christ is true God (a true God does not have flesh and bones) and also true man (a man does have flesh and bones), this makes Christ a true spirit and not a true spirit, does not have flesh and bones and does have flesh and bones. God cannot be the author of this absurdity because “God is not the author of confusion” (I Cor. 14:33 NKJV).
This is the truth written in the Holy Scriptures: God is not Man and Man is not God.
CHRIST SAID HE IS A MAN
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself explicitly said that He is a Man:
“I AM A MAN who has told you the truth which I heard from God, but you are trying to kill me. Abraham did nothing like that.” (John 8:40 NCV, emphasis mine)
When Jesus said that He is a man it is like saying that He is not God because it is written in the Bible that God is not Man and Man is not God. What further proves that Jesus is a Man and not God? Luke 24:36-39 reads:
“Now as they said these things, Jesus Himself stood in the midst of them, and said to them, ‘Peace to you.’ But they were terrified and frightened, and supposed they had seen a spirit. And He said to them, "Why are you troubled? And why do doubts arise in your hearts? Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see I have.” (Luke 24:36-39 NKJV)
When the Lord Jesus Christ appeared to the disciples after His resurrection, the disciples taught they had seen a spirit. However, the Lord Jesus said to them, “Behold My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself. Handle Me and see, FOR A SPIRIT DOES NOT HAVE FLESH AND BONES AS YOU SEE I HAVE.”
The Lord Jesus Christ Himself said that God is a spirit, and He showed that He is not a spirit. Jesus Himself said that a “spirit does not have flesh and bones,” and He showed that He does have flesh and bones. Thus, in stating that He is a man and showing that He is not a spirit but rather does having flesh and bones is also an admission that He is not God.
THE BIBLE CLEARLY TEACHES
THAT JESUS CHRIST IS A MAN
The Old Testament prophecy regarding Christ says that He is a man:
“He is despised and rejected by men, A MAN of sorrows and acquainted with grief. And we hid, as it were, our faces from Him; He was despised, and we did not esteem Him.” (Isaiah 53:3 NKJV, emphasis mine)
God Himself said that Jesus Christ is a man:
“I still did not know that he was the one, but God, who sent me to baptize with water, had said to me, 'You will see the Spirit come down and stay on A MAN; he is the one who baptizes with the Holy Spirit.'” (John 1:33 TEV, emphasis mine)
THE LORD JESUS CHRIST REMAINS A MAN
EVEN HE IS NOW IN HEAVEN
The Bible explicitly said that Jesus is the one sitting at the right hand of God:
“If then you were raised with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ is, sitting at the right hand of God.” (Colossians 3:1 NKJV)
And the Holy Scriptures clearly teaches that the one sitting at the right hand of God is a man:
“Let Your hand be upon the man of Your right hand, Upon the son of man whom You made strong for Yourself.” (Psalms 80:17 NKJV)
The reason why the apostles taught that the Lord Jesus Christ is a man even He is already in heaven:
“For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus” (I Timothy 2:5, NIV)
“People of Israel, listen to these words: Jesus from Nazareth was a very special man. God clearly showed this to you by the miracles, wonders, and signs he did through Jesus. You all know this, because it happened right here among you.” (Acts 2:22 NCV)
Even on His Second Coming, the Lord Jesus Christ remains man in state of being:
“Because He has appointed a day on which He will judge the world in righteousness by the Man whom He has ordained. He has given assurance of this to all by raising Him from the dead.” (Acts 17:31 NKJV)
CONCLUSION
There are hundreds of verses in the Bible that says that Jesus Christ is a man. Remember the biblical fact that God is not Man and Man is not God. Thus, the fact that the Bible explicitly pronounced that Jesus is a man is equivalent of saying that He is not God.
Christ’s statements in Luke 24:39 is also tacitly teaching us that He is not God. Remember that prior to this event, The Lord Jesus Christ had earlier instructed the disciples about the nature of God. He taught them that God is a spirit (cf. John 4:24). The apostles mistook Him for a spirit which is tantamount to falsely thinking of Christ as having the same nature as God or being God Himself. But, Jesus immediately corrected their wrong conclusion concerning His nature. He emphasized to them that He is not a spirit (Luke 24:39), which is equivalent to saying that He is not God in His state of being.
Jesus’ statement in John 8:40 and Luke 24:39 serve as His didactical teaching to anyone who would think of Him as God. The clarification He made to those who thought of Him as a spirit is a reminder to anyone who would mistakenly think of Him as God. Whenever someone has a question regarding the true nature of Jesus Christ, he should be reminded simply about Jesus’ own statements in Luke 24:39 and His acknowledgment of His nature in John 8:40 wherein He emphatically declared “I am a man.”
Thief
Rogue Theologian
oh....????
Someone Else made God?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
And in conjunction with other verses in the bible which likewise say:
Malachi 2:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
Have we not all one Father?
Has not one God created us?
Why do we deal treacherously with one another
By profaning the covenant of the fathers?
Who is the one God? Is it the Son or is it the Father as the Bible says?
Your verse in the right context:
2 Corinthians 5:16-19 New King James Version (NKJV)
Therefore, from now on, we regard no one according to the flesh. Even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him thus no longer. Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new. Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not imputing their trespasses to them, and has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
This is about how God reconciles with man, and that is through Jesus Christ.
It does not speak if the Spirit of God dwells in Christ, Christ becomes God
and it does not all also say that if the Spirit of God dwells in men, men will become God
This is about how God reconciles with men and that is being "in Chirst"
If a person, religion is not "in Christ" then there is no reconciliation.
It is not an argument that God the Father is the one true God - it is the truth.
Mark 12:29-32 New King James Version (NKJV)
Jesus answered him, “The first of all the commandments is: ‘Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one. And you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first commandment. And the second, like it, is this: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ There is no other commandment greater than these.”
So the scribe said to Him, “Well said, Teacher. You have spoken the truth, for there is one God, and there is no other but He.
Jesus Christ himself believed that the Lord our God, the Lord is one. He did not say the Lord our God is two or three or the trinity. No. Christ said our God is one. And the scribe who spoke to Jesus shared the same belief. How come after Jesus was taken to heaven and after the apostles died, God became more than one?
So why was he resurrected?
Who resurrected him?
This is what we can read from the Bible:
Acts 4:10 New King James Version (NKJV)
let it be known to you all, and to all the people of Israel, that by the name of Jesus Christ of Nazareth, whom you crucified, whom God raised from the dead, by Him this man stands here before you whole.
Who raised Jesus Christ of Nazareth from the dead? Was it God the Trinity?
This is again we can read from the Bible:
Galatians 1:1 New King James Version (NKJV)
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead),
Did Christ say accept me as your Lord and you will be saved?
I believe it is the Charismatic preachers who are teaching this.
But what did Christ really say?
John 10:9 New King James Version (NKJV)
I am the door. If anyone enters by Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.
You have to enter through Jesus to be saved.
Now how do you do that? He is in heaven and we are on earth.
Matthew 16:18 New King James Version (NKJV)
And I also say to you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and the gates of Hades shall not prevail against it.
Jesus Christ has a church and Hell cannot over come it, hence anyone who enters will be saved.
He did not say just accept me as your personal savior and you will be alright.
You have to look for it.
Luke 13:24-30 New International Version (NIV)
“Make every effort to enter through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will try to enter and will not be able to. Once the owner of the house gets up and closes the door, you will stand outside knocking and pleading, ‘Sir, open the door for us.’
“But he will answer, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from.’
“Then you will say, ‘We ate and drank with you, and you taught in our streets.’
“But he will reply, ‘I don’t know you or where you come from. Away from me, all you evildoers!’
“There will be weeping there, and gnashing of teeth, when you see Abraham, Isaac and Jacob and all the prophets in the kingdom of God, but you yourselves thrown out. People will come from east and west and north and south, and will take their places at the feast in the kingdom of God. Indeed there are those who are last who will be first, and first who will be last.”
And I bet there will be people saying "We accepted you as your Lord and Savior"
The Jews who merely accepted Jesus as the Messiah won't be saved.
I am sorry, it is not enough.
Remember what Jesus said?
John 15:5 New International Version (NIV)
“I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing.
How can one accept Jesus as the Messiah be saved while being apart from him?
Again we look for the answers in the words of the Lord Jesus Christ and not from our personal opinions
Matthew 7:21-23 New International Version (NIV)
“Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
These are not a few people as Christ said they will be MANY on that day
These people are "Christians" in their own belief
Maybe they just accepted Jesus as Lord and savior
These people preached in the name of Jesus
These people drove out demons in the name of Jesus
These people performed many miracles in the name of Jesus
Yet....
Have we not all one Father?
Yes
Has not one God created us?
Yes
Now, let's return to the scriptures to see what is revealed about the nature of Jesus Christ.
From this we should be able to work out where our differences lie.
Mary, a virgin, conceived a son by the Holy Spirit [Luke 1:35].
There was no male human seed involved [Luke 1:34].
Jesus was made under the law, a human being [Galatians 4:4].
A human being consists of a body, soul and spirit [1 Thess. 5:23]. Jesus had all three.
Jesus, as a Jew, attended synagogue [Luke 4:16] and prayed to his heavenly Father. Jesus followed the law revealed to Moses but even at a young age understood his special relationship with God his Father [Luke 2:49]
Luke 2:52 states, 'And Jesus increased in wisdom and stature, and in favour with God and man.'
In the first thirty years of his life Jesus was a mortal, living in a corruptible body [Acts 13:34], with a soul and spirit dedicated to serving the one God, his Father.
Did Jesus live righteously under the law? Yes, he carried no sin by inheritance and he lived a wholly righteous life. For this reason his Father was able to say, 'Thou art my beloved Son; in thee I am well pleased.' [Luke 3:22]
It is at this point, when Jesus is about thirty, that he is anointed with the Holy Spirit as Messiah [see 2 Samuel 5:4,5], receiving the fulness of the Godhead bodily [Colossians 2:9], the Spirit of God without measure [John 3:34]. So Jesus, now the Christ [Matthew 1:16], is fully man yet also fully God. The title Christ denotes the anointing with the Spirit of God [2 Cor. 5:19, 1 Cor.10:2-4]. This same Spirit was with the Israelites in the Exodus.
During his ministry, Jesus Christ demonstrates in words and deeds that he has received the full authority of God his Father [Mark 2:7]; but Jesus Christ remains fully human. He still prays to his Father, as a Son [John 17:20,21]. He still draws on the strength of his Father [Luke 22;42-44]. Why? Because the Spirit of God is like a fountain of living water. It pours forth as a constant stream from the Father to the Son.
At crucifixion, Jesus died. His body and soul descended into the grave. At crucifixion, before he died, he bore the sin of mankind in his body. At this time, darkness was over all the earth [Luke 23:44] and Jesus called out My God, My God, why hast thou forsaken me? [Matthew 27:46; Psalm 22] God's Spirit left his body and did not return until Jesus was resurrected from the dead [John 2:19-21], three days and nights later.
At resurrection, God, the Father, says of His Son,' Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee.' [Psalm 2; Rev.1:5] Jesus was the firstfruits of the harvest. A body and soul made immortal by the living Spirit of God.
At his ascension to heaven [Daniel 7:13,14] Jesus Christ [Body incorruptible, Soul and Holy Spirit] sits at the right hand of his Father, and is given all authority over things in heaven and on earth 'that all should serve him'.[Hebrews 1:13,14; Hebrews 2:8]
It is from heaven that the Father, through the Son, sends the gift of Holy Spirit [Galatians 4] that all men might become sons of God. When they do become sons of God, by receiving the Spirit of Christ, they are able to pray to their Father in the name of the Son, Jesus Christ.
1 Cor. 3:16. 'Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?'
What is it here that you disagree with?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
This passage can be understood without reference to Chapter 17.
The speaker is clearly Jesus. Jesus is speaking to his disciples.
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Among others, I disagree that Jesus is God
I disagree that if you just accept Jesus as your personal savior - you will be saved.
Where did you pick that up in the Bible?
But things like these are bound to happen because we are living in the last days.
2 Timothy 3:1-5 Good News Translation (GNT)
Remember that there will be difficult times in the last days. People will be selfish, greedy, boastful, and conceited; they will be insulting, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, and irreligious; they will be unkind, merciless, slanderers, violent, and fierce; they will hate the good; they will be treacherous, reckless, and swollen with pride; they will love pleasure rather than God; they will hold to the outward form of our religion, but reject its real power. Keep away from such people.
Iymus
Active Member
Joh 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
1. So is the Speaker "Christ" telling his Audience "Disciples" That The Father , Speaker and Audience are one?
2. If this is the case why did you imply that the audience is The Father, Son , and Holy Spirit when it is clearly the Disciples?
3. This is the kind of mindset that frustrates, when people use their own beliefs to conform the intention of what is written instead of letting the intention of what is written speak for itself first and foremost.
1. So is the Speaker "Christ" telling his Audience "Disciples" That The Father , Speaker and Audience are one?
2. If this is the case why did you imply that the audience is The Father, Son , and Holy Spirit when it is clearly the Disciples?
3. This is the kind of mindset that frustrates, when people use their own beliefs to conform the intention of what is written instead of letting the intention of what is written speak for itself first and foremost.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
some of those years are not accounted for
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Among others, I disagree that Jesus is God
I disagree that if you just accept Jesus as your personal savior - you will be saved.
Where did you pick that up in the Bible?
But things like these are bound to happen because we are living in the last days.
2 Timothy 3:1-5 Good News Translation (GNT)
Remember that there will be difficult times in the last days. People will be selfish, greedy, boastful, and conceited; they will be insulting, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, and irreligious; they will be unkind, merciless, slanderers, violent, and fierce; they will hate the good; they will be treacherous, reckless, and swollen with pride; they will love pleasure rather than God; they will hold to the outward form of our religion, but reject its real power. Keep away from such people.
The issue being discussed here is whether Jesus Christ is God.
I believe Jesus Christ was fully man and fully God, as explained in my previous post. He was the perfect mediator between God and men.
Like lymus, you claim that Jesus was not God. This means that you do not believe that he had the fulness of the Godhead bodily. The conclusion I draw from this is that you do not believe that God can dwell on earth with men. Is that a fair conclusion?
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Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
John 14:20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.
'At that day' must be Pentecost because in verse 16 Jesus says he will pray that the Father send the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, that he [the Holy Spirit] may abide with the disciples for ever.
How will the disciples know that Jesus is 'in my Father'? Because Jesus promised to send the Holy Spirit once he had ascended to heaven to sit at the right hand of his Father. The Holy Spirit could not have been sent from the Father and Son had they not been together, as one Spirit, on the throne.
The coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost is the same as saying the Spirit of Christ came at Pentecost. That is why Jesus was able to say, 'ye in me, and I in you'. The disciples enter into the body of Christ through baptism in the Holy Spirit.
You asked the question, Why did you imply that the audience is The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit when it is clearly the Disciples? My answer is that the disciples were the ones who received the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, and they received the Spirit from Christ, and from their Father in heaven. It is all one Spirit, one God.
Where do you think the Holy Spirit came from?
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
Yes, we only have the one record in the Bible of his boyhood, when he was twelve.
Do you think that God would not have recorded these early years had they been significant to his plan of salvation?
MJFlores
Well-Known Member
Your belief is different from what is written in the Bible.
Even the Catholic bible differs from your belief and Catholic belief about Jesus Christ.
This is what Paul the apostle told people who Christ is:
1 Timothy 2:5 New Revised Standard Version Catholic Edition (NRSVCE)
For
there is one God;
there is also one mediator between God and humankind,
Christ Jesus, himself human,
Did the Bible say Christ Jesus is fully man and fully God?
Absolutely not.
Where did the doctrine that Jesus Christ is fully man and fully God, come from?
Well, one thing is for sure - not from the Bible.
Godhead???
Like this one?
Who my God is, is written in the Bible.
Who my Jesus is, is written in the Bible
Other than that, it is a Jesus that is different from the Jesus told by the apostles, like Paul
2 Corinthians 11:3-4 Easy-to-Read Version (ERV)
But I am afraid that your minds will be led away from your true and pure following of Christ. This could happen just as Eve was tricked by that snake with his clever lies. You seem to be quite patient with anyone who comes to you and tells you about a Jesus that is different from the Jesus we told you about. You seem very willing to accept a spirit or a message that is different from the Spirit and message that you received from us.
Iymus
Active Member
1. This is half truths if not lie at best, in which you draw a seemingly false conclusion. The Origin of any Divinity and Power Christ had is of his God and Father.
Col 1:3 We give thanks to God and the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,
Col 1:12 Giving thanks unto the Father, which hath made us meet to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in light:
Col 1:19 For it pleased the Father that in him should all fulness dwell;
Joh 13:3 Jesus knowing that the Father had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God, and went to God;
Joh 5:44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Iymus
Active Member
1. It came from the one whose power, will, and authority alone himself raised Christ from the dead.
1Co 6:14 And God hath both raised up the Lord, and will also raise up us by his own power.
Act 5:30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree.
Act 5:31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.
Act 5:32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.
2. However for you to try and circumvent or deny the intention of what is written, to make Christ the only true God, you will try to use the Gospel of Christ to be subtil or imply that The Son did his own works, will, etc; Thereby making the argument circular which i grow tired of.
Joh 15:14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. '
Joh 8:42 Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I proceeded forth and came from God; neither came I of myself, but he sent me.
Mat 23:9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven.
Mat 6:10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.
Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
Joh 7:17 If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God, or whether I speak of myself.
Joh 4:34 Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to finish his work.
3. At the end of the day if we do the will of God we will understand whether it is of God himself or of another speaking of his own self.
Joh 7:18 He that speaketh of himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh his glory that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him.
Thief
Rogue Theologian
I think His years approaching manhood would have been like any other
and that would allow fingerpointing
some of that happened anyway......
Do we not know this Man?.....are not His brothers and sisters here with us now?
and it seems having ANY blood relationship causes people to doubt His ability to speak
on behalf of His Father
oh oh
Hi @MJFlores
I did not want to join the discussion, other than to make a single point regarding your “biblical texts” you are using.
AUTHENTIC BIBLE TRANSLATIONS VS PARAPHRASES OF BIBLICAL TEXT
The “quotes” you offered from 1 Tim 2:5 and from 2 Cor 11:3-4 (post #75) are from paraphrases and not from translations. Their text is quite inaccurate and the use of inaccurate text has a tendency to confuse individuals who are used to actual Greek-based translations when their versions are quite different than your paraphrases.
You may want to use bibles that are actual translations, rather than paraphrases so that the text you quote is closer to the text from authentic translations and not so contaminated by the people or group who created the paraphrase you are using.
Clear
ακειφυω
I did not want to join the discussion, other than to make a single point regarding your “biblical texts” you are using.
AUTHENTIC BIBLE TRANSLATIONS VS PARAPHRASES OF BIBLICAL TEXT
The “quotes” you offered from 1 Tim 2:5 and from 2 Cor 11:3-4 (post #75) are from paraphrases and not from translations. Their text is quite inaccurate and the use of inaccurate text has a tendency to confuse individuals who are used to actual Greek-based translations when their versions are quite different than your paraphrases.
You may want to use bibles that are actual translations, rather than paraphrases so that the text you quote is closer to the text from authentic translations and not so contaminated by the people or group who created the paraphrase you are using.
Clear
ακειφυω
Redemptionsong
Well-Known Member
There's a temptation to skim over a verse like this without giving it due attention. Just because it says 'Christ Jesus, himself human' does not mean that he was only human. The title Christ refers to the 'Anointed One', not an earthly king as in the OT, but the one man that God would anoint as King of Kings for eternity. So the title Christ, coming before the name Jesus tells us that the human, Jesus, also had the Spirit of God by anointing. He was, therefore, BOTH fully human and fully God.
The second point to consider is that a mediator is not of one. A mediator between God and men is not ALL HUMAN or ALL GOD. A mediator is both.
Galatians 3:20. 'Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.'
This tells us that a mediator is not of one side only; but God's Spirit is one, it's all connected, Father and Son, and Holy Spirit. So Christ Jesus must have been a human with God's Spirit in him. And this is exactly what scripture tells us.
All the posts that I have directed at lymus on another thread could just as easily have been posted to you. For it all comes back to the question that Solomon posed in 1 Kings 8:27 and 2 Chronicles 6:18, 'But will God in very deed dwell with men on earth?' Both you and lymus have stated emphatically that God cannot dwell on earth with men. This makes the Messiah, the Christ, all human.
Is this the position you wish to defend?