If God knew beforehand why did he go through with it?

[Kilgore Trout]

Well, you suggested #5 fitted under #1. I'm disputing that.

I know you are. Of course, I'm referring to the objective existence of the god described in the paragraph. Whether it exists as a metaphor, concept, etc. is irrelevant to my argument.

 

[Hevenly Heathen]

But now when I think about I think it really should be universal quetions for all who have a belief in a supernatural being or a group of supernatural beings whom have a diverse array of supernatural powers one of which is the ability to see into the future yet still chose create the world knowing evil would abound on that planet. I guess in a way you cannot totally answer for your Creator but why do you follow him/her/them if they have done so?

Have the ability to see into the future yet a created a world they knew would evil would abound and cause catastrophic pain for the beings that walk, fly and swim across the Earth.

I hope my questions make more sense.

Why would he not create? I think you are asking us to also believe that "God" is kind, generous, loving being. Perhaps he is. Perhaps he created all and wanted to give us a chance, instead of destroying all he had built to start anew.
To me, it doesn't matter why or where all came from. We are here now. It is our responsibility to act in accordance to the universe as we perceive it. Some rely on divine beings, others on spirits, others on nothing, but we all find some pattern to focus on and help us chose our way. This is what is important, finding our way.
If there is a God, perhaps that is why he left it: to fulfill our true potential, we must find our own way, and that may include being subject to "evil."

 

[LittleNipper]

I get your point Little Nipper I really hope you don't take my comment as offensive or rude. I don't wanna take away from your convertion and the walk you have with God.

I get that you are grateful for God creating the world as you have a strong bond with him but I would say for a moment think of the bigger picture. The genocides, the famines, the deaths of innocent people would you say that it was worth all of that for you to have a strong bond with God?

I'm not suggesting that God shouldn't have created the world, I'm pondering why did God choose to create the world in this way? To allow creation to fall from him when he has the ability to erradicate evil, when he has the ability to create our world a new without all the drama?

But don't you see that GOD allows the drama so that those whosoever will may come. Satan and a fallen degenerating universe are what brings about all the bad things. You exist and I exist because of a series of historic events, and must needed to have happened for us to have ever have been born as we are... Kind of like watching It's a Wonderful Life. Without George, a whole series of events changed the destiny of everyone connected with him in many ways.

GOD is likely teaching those who eventually do accept HIM something eternal in nature during this lifetime... Perhaps it is how much HE really loves each of us, that HE is willing to do anything for us ----- no matter the cost --- that we might be with HIM for all eternity. And this could not happen in any other way. GOD, and not we, sees the entire picture. We see only the revealed past and the present. GOD gives us some future highlights, but most simply are not interested or don't care...

 

[Willamena]

I know you are. Of course, I'm referring to the objective existence of the god described in the paragraph. Whether it exists as a metaphor, concept, etc. is irrelevant to my argument.

Okay; I won't mention the objective existence of metaphors, then.

 

[Kilgore Trout]

Okay; I won't mention the objective existence of metaphors, then.

Logical.

 

[Dunemeister]

Adam and Even were bound to fail because that was God's intention! His foreknowledge of the event and the occurrence of the event must in God's case be exactly the same thing. There could be no foreknowledge of the act without it actually occurring and there could be no occurrence without his express will.

No, they were bound to fail because that was the nature of the case. And there is a difference between "express" will and "permissive" will. Allowing something to happen is not the same as mandating it or determining it to happen. If I let my son play hockey and he gets hurt, I have permitted the injury. It doesn't follow that I wanted my son to get injured or that I think his injury is something to be desired. (It's also inevitable for hockey players that they get hurt eventually.)

 

[Wandered Off]

Allowing something to happen is not the same as mandating it or determining it to happen.

True, but in order for foreknowledge to be possible, the future must be determined.

 

[Riverwolf]

Riverwolf ~ which scripture is Lucifer referring to Jesus?

It's in the Vulgate. It's II Peter 1:19:

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis
adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

Translation (NJB): So we have confirmation of the words of the prophets; and you will be right to pay attention to it as to a lamp for lighting a way through the dark, until the dawn comes and the morning star rises in your minds.

Okay, not quite Jesus, but definitely a metaphor for something holy. I stand corrected.

 

[Willamena]

True, but in order for foreknowledge to be possible, the future must be determined.

Omniscence needn't be foreknowledge --that is one view of it. Another, from the subjective perspective, suggests knowledge of everything that happens as it happens, i.e. all of existence in a single "take". The single take of all existence, that includes "all time", happens in an instant.

We, too, take in existence in a single, subjective "take", but our takes are impermanent, each snuggled within the concept we know as "time" and slaved to the concept we know as "location", always changing, never the same twice. The current "take" we call "now".

To suggest that "God" could change what takes place is to look at the all-thing from the perspective that anticipates a future, and laments a past, i.e. the impermanence-taker.

 

[Riverwolf]

Hey all than for your answers.

Just to clarify, I apologise if the question seems slightly confusing. At first when I wrote question I think it was addressed only to Christians and the point about Lucifer and Garden of Eden was specifically for them.

But now when I think about I think it really should be universal quetions for all who have a belief in a supernatural being or a group of supernatural beings whom have a diverse array of supernatural powers one of which is the ability to see into the future yet still chose create the world knowing evil would abound on that planet. I guess in a way you cannot totally answer for your Creator but why do you follow him/her/them if they have done so?

Have the ability to see into the future yet a created a world they knew would evil would abound and cause catastrophic pain for the beings that walk, fly and swim across the Earth.

I hope my questions make more sense.

Because evil cannot exist without good, and this world is only impermanent anyway: the Sages have said that the end goal of all things is to completely merge with God and be One with Him/Her/It. When that happens, there will be no good, nor evil: only God alone will exist.

That's the tradition, anyway.

 

[Humanistheart]

But don't you see that GOD allows the drama so that those whosoever will may come. Satan and a fallen degenerating universe are what brings about all the bad things..

If satan brings about all bad things, and god is the one that braught satan about, then god is what brings about all things bad.

 

[Wandered Off]

Omniscence needn't be foreknowledge --that is one view of it.

Agreed. A forward-limited omniscience is the only type compatible with free will IMO, but that's another topic.

 

[Baydwin]

It's in the Vulgate. It's II Peter 1:19:

et habemus firmiorem propheticum sermonem cui bene facitis
adtendentes quasi lucernae lucenti in caliginoso loco donec dies inlucescat et lucifer oriatur in cordibus vestris

Translation (NJB): So we have confirmation of the words of the prophets; and you will be right to pay attention to it as to a lamp for lighting a way through the dark, until the dawn comes and the morning star rises in your minds.

Okay, not quite Jesus, but definitely a metaphor for something holy. I stand corrected.

No, you were right the first time Riverwolf;

Revelation 22:16
"I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelation+22:16&version=KJV

 

[LittleNipper]

If satan brings about all bad things, and god is the one that braught satan about, then god is what brings about all things.

GOD is not who originated sin. Satan did that by wanting to usurp GOD. Now, if you want to blame GOD for creating Lucifer, that is just. HE did. GOD also knew what Lucifer would do and become. HOWEVER, GOD did not create evil. Satan did that.

Eveything is because GOD exists, but that doesn't mean that GOD created everything. Satan created evil by wanting to be GOD. GOD is not evil and is unable to do that which is evil; however, HE does on occasion allow evil to have its way to a point ----------- again, I suggest you study the book of Job. It is an eye opener written so humans might understand GOD's truth.

 

[Baydwin]

GOD is not who originated sin. Satan did that by wanting to usurp GOD. Now, if you want to blame GOD for creating Lucifer, that is just. HE did. GOD also knew what Lucifer would do and become. HOWEVER, GOD did not create evil. Satan did that.

Eveything is because GOD exists, but that doesn't mean that GOD created everything. Satan created evil by wanting to be GOD. GOD is not evil and is unable to do that which is evil; however, HE does on occasion allow evil to have its way to a point ----------- again, I suggest you study the book of Job. It is an eye opener written so humans might understand GOD's truth.

Who do you believe created Hell? Also, do you believe God would ever enter Hell?

 

[LittleNipper]

Who do you believe created Hell? Also, do you believe God would ever enter Hell?

GOD created a place to eventually jail satan. I believe Hell is "hell" because GOD is not active in that place. Hell becomes what it is by way of those who end their eternity there. I believe CHRIST went down to Abraham's Bossom when HE gave up HIS SPIRIT on the cross. I believe HE went to what was called Paradise, but could see over into the "hell" side. And I believe HE could be heard over there during that time also. When CHRIST led the captives free to heaven (from Paradise), hell expanded to encompass the entire area then vacated.

 

[Humanistheart]

GOD is not who originated sin. Satan did that by wanting to usurp GOD. Now, if you want to blame GOD for creating Lucifer, that is just. HE did. GOD also knew what Lucifer would do and become. HOWEVER, GOD did not create evil. Satan did that..

You claim god created an evil being and then blame that being for the evil it was created with. It's like blaming a rape victim for getting herself raped. That's just wrong.

Eveything is because GOD exists, but that doesn't mean that GOD created everything. .

That is a complete contradiction, in every possible sence of the word. Everything exists because of god then yes, evil exists because of him.

again, I suggest you study the book of Job. It is an eye opener written so humans might understand GOD's truth.

If you study the book of job, as you suggest, you'd know satan is in fact an accuser working for god, not a fallen angel originating evil.

Also, consider that you blame satan for 'evil', but offer no definition of what 'evil' means.

 

[Baydwin]

GOD created a place to eventually jail satan. I believe Hell is hell because GOD is not active in that place. Hell becomes what it is by way of those who end their eternity there.

That's interesting, can I ask how you explain this scripture then?

Psalm 139:7-8
"Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there."

 

[Demonic Kitten]

GOD is not who originated sin. Satan did that by wanting to usurp GOD. Now, if you want to blame GOD for creating Lucifer, that is just. HE did. GOD also knew what Lucifer would do and become. HOWEVER, GOD did not create evil. Satan did that.

Eveything is because GOD exists, but that doesn't mean that GOD created everything. Satan created evil by wanting to be GOD. GOD is not evil and is unable to do that which is evil; however, HE does on occasion allow evil to have its way to a point ----------- again, I suggest you study the book of Job. It is an eye opener written so humans might understand GOD's truth.

Wait...I'm confused here. God created Satan/Lucifer, but God did not create evil. I am understanding this correctly aren't I? Are you trying to telling me that this so called all knowing God knew what was going to happen and created Satan anyway.This does not seem logical to me. God knew what would happen with Satan/Lucifer and God created him anyway. So from a logical (at least to me) stand point God did create evil by creating Satan/Lucifer. That is if one were to believe in this stuff.

Balance is about the only thing I have faith in and you can not have good with out evil.

 

[Paraprakrti]

This question is for all you who are believers in God

These question has been lingering over my head for a very long time.

If God is all knowing, can foresee the future and prophecy things before they happen why did he allow sin to enter the world? Why did he create Lucifer knowing he would become Satan? Why did he put the tree of knowledge of good and evil in the garden if he knew Adam and Eve would be tricked by the serpent?

If you are believer in God and you know the answer, do let me know as to be honest im racking my brain over the concept of a loving creator who had prior knowledge of his creations demise and let it happen anyway?

1. I'd argue that if it weren't for sin, the world wouldn't have been created in the first place. Nothing would have been created. Creation implies something inferior to an eternal God; something inferior to the desire for an eternal God. "Sin" basically means to desire something aside from God. Therefore, sin is what makes the world, so to speak.

2. I was recently surprised to find that Orthodox Judaism more or less agrees with the following analogy: Satan is to God as Slugworth is to Wonka. In line with what I wrote for 1., sin must have pre-existed creation and thus Satan/Lucifer would serve the function of bewildering the conditioned souls, similar to the function of Maya in Vedic religion. Although both Satan and Maya are to be avoided by those who seek God, they are employed by God because the very basis of creation rests on the desire to enjoy separately from God. So, in other words, Satan/Maya is God's device for giving the conditioned souls what they desire. However, at the same time, since such desires are imperfect (being separate from the perfect God), the conditioned soul never finds true happiness and thus eventually turns to God.

3. My interpretation of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is that it represents the duality of relative desire - like and dislike, attraction and aversion. Free will entails the option of having the singular desire for God or having the dualistic desire based on one's own senses. In other words, the knowledge of good and evil isn't knowledge of absolute good (i.e. God) and absolute evil (i.e. ignorance of God). Rather, it is the knowledge of subjective desire apart from God. "Good," in this case, refers to what an individual deems palatable, and "evil" refers to what an individual deems unpalatable. Why God creates the situation in the Adam and Eve account would be similar to my answer in 2.