if God were real...?

[Etritonakin]

First a comment, I...and most other people...tune out posts where 47 pages of Bible quotes are cut and pasted. I don't mind a quote here or there if it supports a specific point, but no one gets anything out of multiple paragraphs of cut n paste quotes.

Now, on to the comment. Why would God hide something from me and show it to you? Is He intentionally deceiving? I thought that was Satan's game?



Than how can you explain 100 people reading the Bible and coming away with 100 different interpretations?

I don't think my quotes were excessive -and do think they were relevant.

Why do you hide things from some and reveal them to others at various times in various situations?
Some are prepared to handle it well -others do not have the background to understand -sometimes it will have positive results -other times negative, etc.
All will understand eventually -and all will be made alive -in order.

100 people can have a hundred lenses -and not use that of the bible.
For example, some believe the abomination of desolation and the taking away of the daily to be the same thing because they read a few verses -but elsewhere it is stated that they are separated by 1,290 days.

God did and does set up an overall situation which will result in the end he declared the beginning -which will benefit all.

However -though he is not a deceiver -this was written concerning those who choose their own ways and delight in abominations -and is a judgment essentially dealing with such on their own terms. Still -it will benefit them in the end.
It may seem harsh, but some men are even more harsh.
God will also deal with human militarism on its own terms -literally defeating the armies of the earth who destroy the earth when they turn to fight him at his return.

Isaiah 66:4 "I also will choose their delusions, and will bring their fears upon them; because when I called, none did answer; when I spake, they did not hear: but they did evil before mine eyes, and chose that in which I delighted not."

 

[Demonslayer]

If insight by the Holy Spirit is offered somehow to a person and the person keeps rejecting it

Seeing something and rejecting it is markedly different from not being able to see it at all. You said "some people can see and some cannot see."

What I assumed you meant by that is, there are lots of people to claim to be "touched by the spirit" or "have received a sign" or "experienced a revelation. The claims are usually made with the slant that they don't doubt God's existence for a minute because God has revealed Himself to them and therefore there is no doubt.

Then there are those of us who not only never automatically received a sign or revelation, but who actively sought such a sign through the early years of their life and never got so much as a tingle.

In your last post above you've now changed it to rejection of someone who "has seen." Believe me, if I had a revelation the way some people describe, I wouldn't reject it. So that's not what were talking about. My initial question to you was based on your idea that some people can "see" and some cannot "see."

So the question remains. Forget someone who "sees" and rejects...what of those who simply cannot "see?" Why does God choose to make belief extremely easy for some by undeniably revealing Himself, and impossibly hard for others to whom he refuses to answer despite years of constant reaching out and seeking?

 

[Etritonakin]

So then if God sets it up so some people can see (presumably the ones who are religious) and some cannot see (presumably folks like myself who are not.) how can He blame those for which He didn't give the power to see?

Isn't that a set up job?

Jeremiah complained that God had deceived him or ensnared him because God did not reveal what would be the results of his prophesying. Strictly speaking, God does not deceive in the sense that Satan does, but he does control information and perception in order to bring about the desired end.

7O LORD, thou hast deceived me, and I was deceived: thou art stronger than I, and hast prevailed: I am in derision daily, every one mocketh me.
8For since I spake, I cried out, I cried violence and spoil; because the word of the LORD was made a reproach unto me, and a derision, daily.
9Then I said, I will not make mention of him, nor speak any more in his name. But his wordwas in mine heart as a burning fire shut up in my bones, and I was weary with forbearing, and I could not stay.
10For I heard the defaming of many, fear on every side. Report, say they, and we will report it. All my familiars watched for my halting, saying, Peradventure he will be enticed, and we shall prevail against him, and we shall take our revenge on him.

 

[Demonslayer]

I don't think my quotes were excessive -and do think they were relevant.

Suit yourself I could care less, I'm no thread police. I'm just telling you most people don't want to sift through a giant cut n paste like your post #101. Take it or leave it, it's just my opinion.

Why do you hide things from some and reveal them to others at various times in various situations?

Normally so I won't get into some kind of trouble.

But what does my action have to do with the actions of God? If it's true that belief in God is necessary to get into Heaven or damned to hell, God refusing to reveal himself to me but not to you is not only God playing favorites, but it's also God not giving everyone a fair shot to avoid eternal torturous damnation.

I'm not aware of anything I hide or reveal that has eternal consequences for people's immortal souls.

God will also deal with human militarism on its own terms -literally defeating the armies of the earth who destroy the earth when they turn to fight him at his return.

Right, the legion of flying horses that are going to fly down from outer space, I almost forgot about God's intergalactic cavalry. That's going to be awesome!

 

[Etritonakin]

Seeing something and rejecting it is markedly different from not being able to see it at all. You said "some people can see and some cannot see."

What I assumed you meant by that is, there are lots of people to claim to be "touched by the spirit" or "have received a sign" or "experienced a revelation. The claims are usually made with the slant that they don't doubt God's existence for a minute because God has revealed Himself to them and therefore there is no doubt.

Then there are those of us who not only never automatically received a sign or revelation, but who actively sought such a sign through the early years of their life and never got so much as a tingle.

In your last post above you've now changed it to rejection of someone who "has seen." Believe me, if I had a revelation the way some people describe, I wouldn't reject it. So that's not what were talking about. My initial question to you was based on your idea that some people can "see" and some cannot "see."

So the question remains. Forget someone who "sees" and rejects...what of those who simply cannot "see?" Why does God choose to make belief extremely easy for some by undeniably revealing Himself, and impossibly hard for others to whom he refuses to answer despite years of constant reaching out and seeking?

I didn't mean it that way/with that slant or whatever -and I'm not really following you at this point.

Could you summarize?

 

[Etritonakin]

Suit yourself I could care less, I'm no thread police. I'm just telling you most people don't want to sift through a giant cut n paste like your post #101. Take it or leave it, it's just my opinion.



Normally so I won't get into some kind of trouble.

But what does my action have to do with the actions of God? If it's true that belief in God is necessary to get into Heaven or damned to hell, God refusing to reveal himself to me but not to you is not only God playing favorites, but it's also God not giving everyone a fair shot to avoid eternal torturous damnation.

I'm not aware of anything I hide or reveal that has eternal consequences for people's immortal souls.



Right, the legion of flying horses that are going to fly down from outer space, I almost forgot about God's intergalactic cavalry. That's going to be awesome!

I will try to respond when I have more time -we are just not talking about the same stuff at all.

 

[Demonslayer]

I didn't mean it that way/with that slant or whatever -and I'm not really following you at this point.

Could you summarize?

Actually, sorry if I didn't make this clear, my "see or not see" comment was addressing a post from savagewind, not from you.

That is likely causing confusion. I was responding I think to post #117.

 

[savagewind]

Seeing something and rejecting it is markedly different from not being able to see it at all. You said "some people can see and some cannot see."

What I assumed you meant by that is, there are lots of people to claim to be "touched by the spirit" or "have received a sign" or "experienced a revelation. The claims are usually made with the slant that they don't doubt God's existence for a minute because God has revealed Himself to them and therefore there is no doubt.

Then there are those of us who not only never automatically received a sign or revelation, but who actively sought such a sign through the early years of their life and never got so much as a tingle.

In your last post above you've now changed it to rejection of someone who "has seen." Believe me, if I had a revelation the way some people describe, I wouldn't reject it. So that's not what were talking about. My initial question to you was based on your idea that some people can "see" and some cannot "see."

So the question remains. Forget someone who "sees" and rejects...what of those who simply cannot "see?" Why does God choose to make belief extremely easy for some by undeniably revealing Himself, and impossibly hard for others to whom he refuses to answer despite years of constant reaching out and seeking?

I know no instance of anyone finding it easy to see. We are not talking about general belief. We are talking about God hiding or showing "things", not God's Self.
It is a journey to the truth. I don't agree with people who say that first you must believe in God for the journey. But I do believe that a person must be willing to accept "things" of God and ask for the wisdom to reject "things" of this world. I see a lot of what seems to be atheists who have accepted the "things" of God and I have seen many people who say they believe in God, but they seem to me to be rejecting the "things" of God. So, I know belief does not matter.

 

[Etritonakin]

Suit yourself I could care less, I'm no thread police. I'm just telling you most people don't want to sift through a giant cut n paste like your post #101. Take it or leave it, it's just my opinion.



Normally so I won't get into some kind of trouble.

But what does my action have to do with the actions of God? If it's true that belief in God is necessary to get into Heaven or damned to hell, God refusing to reveal himself to me but not to you is not only God playing favorites, but it's also God not giving everyone a fair shot to avoid eternal torturous damnation.

I'm not aware of anything I hide or reveal that has eternal consequences for people's immortal souls.



Right, the legion of flying horses that are going to fly down from outer space, I almost forgot about God's intergalactic cavalry. That's going to be awesome!

Just saying God has good reason to reveal different things to different people at different times -in similar fashion -not exactly the same, perhaps -as people do.

The popular ideas of heaven and hell are not biblical.
The bible says that all will be made alive -but in a certain order.

At the judgment, people will be judged according to their works -some will have their part in the "lake of fire" -but will "be saved -yet so as by fire".

Some people are troublemakers and get different treatment -same general principle.

As for God's army.... Joel 2 is a good place to begin.

Scoff if you will.
It's all fun and games until a superior extraterrestrial force destroys Earth's forces which are left after fighting each other and rulership of Earth is removed from men.


Actually -it's more fun and games afterward -but w/e.

Many human agencies take the possibility of extraterrestrial threat seriously -and strange things are definitely happening which would cause those who do not understand scripture to believe "aliens" are active.
The delusion of a threat by a superior alien force (rather than the activities which are written will precede the return of Christ) would certainly qualify as the worst fear of human governments. God's forces will do exactly what is feared -except that what will follow will be peace.

God does not need to meet man on his own terms in order to gain rulership.
It will be done partly for effect. He will resurrect all that die later, anyway -and even they will be given an opportunity to live forever.

"Horses" does not necessarily mean actual horses.
Human war machines are likened to horses prepared for battle in Revelation -having breastplates of iron and being of the primary colors (which mixed make army drab).
It is possible that the horses of God's forces will be similar to war machines -but again -it's not really necessary.
The well-known "wheels" within wheels over in their four sides in Ezekiel which were piloted by living creatures were described as being worked or crafted/built.
They also were described as moving in a similar fashion as described UFO sightings -moving as fast as lightning and remaining oriented the same way regardless of direction.

Anyway -we are not to be dismayed at signs in the heavens or deluded that anything but what is written will happen.

The most important thing is to focus on doing the right thing, regardless -and not making desperate times by resorting to desperate measures because we think there is some alien threat.... Or any other threat, for that matter.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Etritonakin,

In creating individuals, God essentially gave over a certain amount of power to them and also gave the power of choice and decision to them -from himself.

You seem to be saying that intelligence, knowledge and understanding will automatically cause people to the "right" thing.
That is just not the case.

No, that's not exactly what I am saying. Not merely raw intelligence and knowledge from an intellectual standpoint (though they can help), but additionally wisdom and compassion are more fundamental. Wisdom and compassion are deeper than mere information alone, they speak to a deeper, more mature understanding and core feelings about self, others, and life in what I would call a spiritual or soulful sense.

If God made us unable to err or disobey him, we would not truly be individuals -would not be "free" or have "free will" -which seems rather important to everyone.
An individual can know and understand perfectly -and still act differently.
However, experience can change that. One can know something, but living it and feeling it is when it becomes personal -and when individuals weary of doing and experiencing evil -which can be rather fun in the beginning. Some can do the math, as it were, and choose correctly, but that is not always or even often the case.

Perhaps I should clarify a few things. Rather than define it in terms of obedience to a deity, I think of "rightness" in terms of how deeply insightful, psychologically speaking perhaps, a person is at understanding the causes of their own and others' sufferings. In Buddhism, which I think has a very accurate view of real human psychology, the causes of self-made suffering stem from the untamed passions or cravings: hatred, greed, and ignorance. A wise person is one who possesses such virtues as equanimity, compassion, wisdom, and diligence towards their efforts to cease the causes of suffering. In more deeply understanding the causes of suffering, one inevitably comes to recognize and release those causes, thereby detaching themselves from their negative influences. This actually increases our freedom. It does not make us programmed automatons as you suggest, but in fact has the opposite effect. Only when one is bound and attached to one's unconscious cravings or passions is one an automaton, enslaved to their base passions, perpetually creating suffering without control.

It is extremely important that individuals obey God willingly -able to say that it is their own choice. It is important for their happiness -so that they do not feel oppressed -and it is also necessary that they be involved in their own perfection.

You may not believe it to be the case, but the angel who became the adversary was given extreme power, intelligence, understanding, instruction, etc., etc., -but all he had to go by was God's word. He was a newly-created being and this unknown person was telling him things. He had no reference of experience.
He was told the truth, but disbelieved.
It was perfectly logical -but he had not proved it/experienced that it was the truth.
Therefore, God allows disobedience so that he will eventually be known to be who he says he is -and what he says to do can be known to be right.
Thereby temptation can be eventually completely removed.


"I went out there
In search of experience
To taste and to touch
And to feel as much
As a man can
Before he repents" -Johnny Cash and U2 -The Wanderer

To be honest, Christian theology falls very flat on me. The idea that people should strive to believe what they're told is God's commands is entirely misguided imho. Right and wrong are not defined or dependent upon any deities imo, but rather on their relationship to compassion and wisdom. If a thought or an act is both wise and compassionate, it's good. If it's foolish or harmful to self or others, it's wrong.

Jesus's teaching to "love one another" is a righteous teaching. But I do not think it is thus because Jesus is God and we must obey God. Rather, it's because it is a teaching that encourages compassion and decreases suffering. It makes a better world for sentient beings.

 

[Etritonakin]

Hi Etritonakin,



No, that's not exactly what I am saying. Not merely raw intelligence and knowledge from an intellectual standpoint (though they can help), but additionally wisdom and compassion are more fundamental. Wisdom and compassion are deeper than mere information alone, they speak to a deeper, more mature understanding and core feelings about self, others, and life in what I would call a spiritual or soulful sense.

So if not by experience, can you explain how exactly that might be accomplished without removing choice/self determination, etc.?

 

[Etritonakin]

Hi Etritonakin,



To be honest, Christian theology falls very flat on me. The idea that people should strive to believe what they're told is God's commands is entirely misguided imho. Right and wrong are not defined or dependent upon any deities imo, but rather on their relationship to compassion and wisdom. If a thought or an act is both wise and compassionate, it's good. If it's foolish or harmful to self or others, it's wrong.

Jesus's teaching to "love one another" is a righteous teaching. But I do not think it is thus because Jesus is God and we must obey God. Rather, it's because it is a teaching that encourages compassion and decreases suffering. It makes a better world for sentient beings.

The commandments are based on the truth of reality. They should be obeyed because it is correct to do so. God should be obeyed because he is the one by whom all things consist -and is righteousness personified.
Because he is inherently in authority and the source of righteousness, it is righteous to acknowledge that authority.
He is the logic which defines righteousness -and the foundation of it. He is both the universal mind (not limited to the physical universe, but an overall intelligence) and that which it may affect.
Because God exists, not acknowledging him as such is error -and leads to shortsightedness, division, conflict, etc.

If something is truly correct, that is what God would have us do -though the issue became confused when disagreement began -and many of the statutes and judgments along the way have been toward balancing the temporary imbalance, and were based on the situation at the time in reference to the determined end.

It is also true that what seems right to a human mind may not be right overall and considering all, because they do not have the same perspective as the overall intelligence which essentially is all.

As for allowing a human mind to have a perspective increasingly like the overall intelligence, that is actually one aspect of receiving the spirit of God -God's holy spirit (not a separate person, but that which can literally cause you to become more like God).
There is a reason it is not given to individuals who are not yet prepared to receive it correctly. In fact, much of the events of the old testament and the old covenant were to prepare a people (their offspring) to receive the spirit of God within them as part of the new covenant (though some few were given it -or given things by it -in the old testament.

2Ti 1:6 Wherefore I put thee in remembrance that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.
2Ti 1:7 For God hath not given us the spirit of fear; but of power, and of love, and of a sound mind.

It is similar to what was in the old testament, but greater with the new covenant....
Exo_31:3 And I have filled him with the spirit of God, in wisdom, and in understanding, and in knowledge, and in all manner of workmanship,

1Co 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Co 3:16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?

 

[VioletVortex]

By "God", I'm assuming you are referring to the Abrahamic god. No, I would not worship him. Even if he were "good", he probably would not be what I consider to be good.

 

[serp777]

What specifically in your life leads you to say God does not appear to exist?

The fact that he hasn't unambiguously demonstrated to skeptical people that he exists. If he re arranged the stars to say "yah weh is real", then physicists could prove that something broke the laws of physics, and the only likely explanation is that God is revealing himself. Relying on visions and voices or feelings is highly unreliable and untrustworthy because human brains are unreliable.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Etritonakin,

So if not by experience, can you explain how exactly that might be accomplished without removing choice/self determination, etc.?

Let me put it another way. I think it boils down to emotional intelligence. This Psychology Today article summarizes the concept:

What Is Emotional Intelligence?
Emotional intelligence is the ability to identify and manage your own emotions and the emotions of others. It is generally said to include three skills:

1. Emotional awareness, including the ability to identify your own emotions and those of others;

2. The ability to harness emotions and apply them to tasks like thinking and problems solving;

3. The ability to manage emotions, including the ability to regulate your own emotions, and the ability to cheer up or calm down another person.

While experience and the desire to improve yourself in these three ways can increase your emotional intelligence, I think these are qualities we all tend to innately possess varying degrees of interest and ability with. For instance, while meditation practice can be used to improve one's ability to identify and manage your own emotions, it seems evident to me that some people are born with a more intuitive grasp of how to do this than others. Some may be predisposed towards reacting to life situations with a lot of anger. For others, anxiety might be their strongest or default reaction to life's stresses. And yet others may seem to have been born more relaxed, calm, responsive rather than reactive. More thoughtful and considerate, as if by nature. Anyone can train or retrain themselves towards equanimity and to more rationally deal with the stresses of life, but each of us tends to favor certain ways more innately.

So, given a humanity created by an omniscient and omnipotent God, why would God not opt to maximize our emotional intelligence innately? Why struggle needlessly, what's the point of (quite apparently, given the world we live in) ill-equipping so many people in this regard, granting them what amounts to emotional stupidity?

To answer your point concerning choice or free will, in what way would having a greater emotional intelligence restrict said freedom? Indeed, I would argue that the lack of emotional intelligence is what restricts our freedom, it does not increase it. To argue otherwise is akin to arguing that an increase in someone's IQ would make them less free. On the contrary, it can only expand freedom by broadening what we're capable of doing. Finding it foolish to place your hand in a burning fire is not a limitation. It's not that we're incapable of doing so, but that we clearly recognize that it's stupid to do so and therefore refrain.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Jonathan & serp,

What specifically in your life leads you to say God does not appear to exist?

The fact that he hasn't unambiguously demonstrated to skeptical people that he exists. If he re arranged the stars to say "yah weh is real", then physicists could prove that something broke the laws of physics, and the only likely explanation is that God is revealing himself. Relying on visions and voices or feelings is highly unreliable and untrustworthy because human brains are unreliable.

Indeed. Reality does seem entirely consistent with a universe devoid of any gods.

There's also the problem of ignosticism. The very term "god" is quite apparently devoid of any unambiguous or unilateral definition, so any meaningful discussion on the topic seems a moot point without further clarification and consensus.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

The fact that he hasn't unambiguously demonstrated to skeptical people that he exists. If he re arranged the stars to say "yah weh is real", then physicists could prove that something broke the laws of physics, and the only likely explanation is that God is revealing himself. Relying on visions and voices or feelings is highly unreliable and untrustworthy because human brains are unreliable.

Consciousness is such an un-physical phenomenon.

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Hi Jonathan & serp,





Indeed. Reality does seem entirely consistent with a universe devoid of any gods.

There's also the problem of ignosticism. The very term "god" is quite apparently devoid of any unambiguous or unilateral definition, so any meaningful discussion on the topic seems a moot point without further clarification and consensus.

God is consciousness.

 

[Kartari]

Hi Jonathan,

God is consciousness.

And yet, we understand that consciousness is a product of the brain. So if one is interested in showing that a Deity and/or deities are real, how can we know that "God is consciousness" in light of the evidence that it is our brains which actually produce consciousness?

 

[shivsomashekhar]

God is consciousness.

Not according to standard dictionaries.

Unless, by this statement, you are attempting to create a new definition for the word God. But creating newer definitions for old words causes confusion and is a bad idea.