If Heaven Exists

[Balthazzar]

What are the chances of the "saved" being able to sustain the paradise believed to be heaven? We have a difficult enough time getting along here on earth between peaceful a goodwill seeking people. You're smoking?" You're not married? You have a "potty" mouth and you're homeless-how can you give him anything-you don't even have a job?

Heaven-

Is it a failed concept?

 

[questfortruth]

Heaven-

Is it a failed concept?

God is merciful.

 

[Balthazzar]

God is merciful.

That sounds both threatening and comforting. Which side of mercy does 'God" lean on. The death side or betterment side?

 

[questfortruth]

Which side of mercy does 'God" lean on. The death side or betterment side?

Bad side of mercy is pseudo-mercy. That satan has. The Angel of Death is satan's name.

 

[Fool]

What are the chances of the "saved" being able to sustain the paradise believed to be heaven? We have a difficult enough time getting along here on earth between peaceful a goodwill seeking people. You're smoking?" You're not married? You have a "potty" mouth and you're homeless-how can you give him anything-you don't even have a job?

Heaven-

Is it a failed concept?

familiarity tends to breed contempt. sometimes people don't realize what they already had it until it's gone.

that is why the post card says "Wish you were here".

you don't miss the love until the well runs dry

love said, "let there be understanding!"

 

[Balthazzar]

Bad side of mercy is pseudo-mercy. That satan has. The Angel of Death is satan's name.

That's debatable- first last and last first. Seeds and resurrection. That's life.

 

[Balthazzar]

familiarity tends to breed contempt. sometimes people don't realize what they already had it until it's gone.

that is why the post card says "Wish you were here".

you don't miss the love until the well runs dry

Yeah, I'm accustomed to a nice cup of Columbian fresh brewed coffee. They quit carrying Columbian, but they did have breakfast blend. I liked the Columbian better. Gas prices increase a lot. I preferred cheaper gas. Price of beef? Geesh, dont get me started on that. I'm buying a rifle. Two tears in a bucket- insert experlative here

 

[Brian2]

What are the chances of the "saved" being able to sustain the paradise believed to be heaven? We have a difficult enough time getting along here on earth between peaceful a goodwill seeking people. You're smoking?" You're not married? You have a "potty" mouth and you're homeless-how can you give him anything-you don't even have a job?

Heaven-

Is it a failed concept?

Heb 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly, 23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

The spirits of all those who get eternal life have been made perfect.

1Cor 15:42 So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; 43 it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; 44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

The bodies of all those who get eternal life is called a spiritual body and this is a body that can be controlled by our spirit, and our spirit will be perfect.

 

[PureX]

What are the chances of the "saved" being able to sustain the paradise believed to be heaven? We have a difficult enough time getting along here on earth between peaceful a goodwill seeking people. You're smoking?" You're not married? You have a "potty" mouth and you're homeless-how can you give him anything-you don't even have a job?

Heaven-

Is it a failed concept?

It's an aspiration.

My friend likes to misquote that Bible line, "In my father's house, there are many closets".

 

[Reyn]

What are the chances of the "saved" being able to sustain the paradise believed to be heaven? We have a difficult enough time getting along here on earth between peaceful a goodwill seeking people. You're smoking?" You're not married? You have a "potty" mouth and you're homeless-how can you give him anything-you don't even have a job?

Heaven-

Is it a failed concept?

The idea of paradise falls into the same bucket as utopia; it's not realistic. If you want to be happy forever, you have to define happiness. Is that a permanently sustainable state and is it even desirable to be permanently happy, without contrast? Would happiness not lose something were there no contrast? Furthermore, which sorts of alteration would it take to make humans eternally happy? The way I understand it, the concept is more horrifying than it is pleasing. How would everyone get along? They would have to desire the same thing and be the same way. They would also have to be free of sin.

From what I understand of sin, it's missing the mark of holy perfection. That which is sinful, can not exist along side god. This being said, we are made perfect in the eyes of god. That is, the things which make us human, no longer exist. There is no lust, nor lying. No swearing, nor alcoholism. No disease, no death, and most of all, no change. Perfection is unchanging, not changing. Therefore, heaven is a place of stagnation. As if a city made of everything precious. Gold, is it? What is the worth of gold when gold is of unlimited quantity? When it's as common as the stones we see every day? Sapphire? What value does sapphire have, when it's everywhere and anyone can pick up a piece?

If every stone is perfectly cut, what value does it have? If every human can sing perfectly, what is the value of beautiful music? If every human can paint perfectly, what is the value of art? What are the politics of heaven? God plays all powerful king, ruling over his domain with absolute authority. I thought most Christians were against totalitarianism. You don't get votes in heaven. You don't get to choose who you're going to be or what you're going to do. It's not the sort of paradise, you do anything you want. Well, it is but what you want is already decided. That is, since you're made like Christ, you're only going to want things he'd want. This means you're going to want to sing praises and do things which praise your tyrant for eternity.

I'm rather sure most people wouldn't want to do this in the real world. Appreciation for good done fades with time and the only way to ensure you comply, is to remove what makes you... you. You'd be a robot, simply put. You'd have no free will worth having. Why would anyone desire this? Simple. They desire it because it's idealism. Reason is suspended in favor of spiritual pipe dreams which if realized, are the absolute worst sort of hell we can imagine. However, you'd not know you were a slave in hell. You'd only know what you were told to know.

 

[Balthazzar]

The idea of paradise falls into the same bucket as utopia; it's not realistic. If you want to be happy forever, you have to define happiness. Is that a permanently sustainable state and is it even desirable to be permanently happy, without contrast? Would happiness not lose something were there no contrast? Furthermore, which sorts of alteration would it take to make humans eternally happy? The way I understand it, the concept is more horrifying than it is pleasing. How would everyone get along? They would have to desire the same thing and be the same way. They would also have to be free of sin.

From what I understand of sin, it's missing the mark of holy perfection. That which is sinful, can not exist along side god. This being said, we are made perfect in the eyes of god. That is, the things which make us human, no longer exist. There is no lust, nor lying. No swearing, nor alcoholism. No disease, no death, and most of all, no change. Perfection is unchanging, not changing. Therefore, heaven is a place of stagnation. As if a city made of everything precious. Gold, is it? What is the worth of gold when gold is of unlimited quantity? When it's as common as the stones we see every day? Sapphire? What value does sapphire have, when it's everywhere and anyone can pick up a piece?

If every stone is perfectly cut, what value does it have? If every human can sing perfectly, what is the value of beautiful music? If every human can paint perfectly, what is the value of art? What are the politics of heaven? God plays all powerful king, ruling over his domain with absolute authority. I thought most Christians were against totalitarianism. You don't get votes in heaven. You don't get to choose who you're going to be or what you're going to do. It's not the sort of paradise, you do anything you want. Well, it is but what you want is already decided. That is, since you're made like Christ, you're only going to want things he'd want. This means you're going to want to sing praises and do things which praise your tyrant for eternity.

I'm rather sure most people wouldn't want to do this in the real world. Appreciation for good done fades with time and the only way to ensure you comply, is to remove what makes you... you. You'd be a robot, simply put. You'd have no free will worth having. Why would anyone desire this? Simple. They desire it because it's idealism. Reason is suspended in favor of spiritual pipe dreams which if realized, are the absolute worst sort of hell we can imagine. However, you'd not know you were a slave in hell. You'd only know what you were told to know.

That sounds a lot like hell to me ... your vision of heaven I mean. I dislike anchovies, but some enjoy them. I would contest if it was insisted that I eat them. I enjoy a good nedium well steak, but others would suggest it's too pink in the middle. I would contest if it was insisted that I eat the leather, well done and charred steak. I think if people were simply more truthful, life would get better for us and instead of the hellish heaven you envision in your post, it would turn out much more pleasant than what we've known thus far. The contrast is needed. I'm a man - woman rule my world, but I contest when my prefrrences are not considered just as others would contest if theirs weren't considered.

Common sense and an honest spirit. That typically provides enough contrast to get in where we fit in.

 

[Reyn]

That sounds a lot like hell to me ... your vision of heaven I mean. I dislike anchovies, but some enjoy them. I would contest if it was insisted that I eat them. I enjoy a good nedium well steak, but others would suggest it's too pink in the middle. I would contest if it was insisted that I eat the leather, well done and charred steak. I think if people were simply more truthful, life would get better for us and instead of the hellish heaven you envision in your post, it would turn out much more pleasant than what we've known thus far. The contrast is needed. I'm a man - woman rule my world, but I contest when my prefrrences are not considered just as others would contest if theirs weren't considered.

Common sense and an honest spirit. That typically provides enough contrast to get in where we fit in.

You want the solution? Let people live their lives as they see fit. I'm not saying go full anarchy, making murder for sport legal. I'm suggesting stop with the micro management of humanity. Let people swear, use slurs, run their businesses as they see fit. Everything we do has consequences. If you're a bakery who won't make wedding cakes for homosexuals, you're not getting their business or the business of those who agree with their cause. If you say the N word around black folks, one might punch you out. That's assault and if you have the money to sue, sue for medical expenses. If not, rethink using the term. Yes, this got political but the concept of heaven is political. It's about everyone being made to exist a certain way because big sky daddy orders it and we don't go around questioning big sky daddy, since if we're in heaven, we can't. It would be like living under Hitler if Hitler had absolute autonomy over your brain.

 

[PureX]

It's not "Big Sky Daddy's" fault. You could go to a 'heaven' all by yourself and do anything you like. But if you want to share your existence there with other human spirits, you're going to have to sacrifice some of that selfishness to accommodate the gift of their presence. Just as you have to do here in this life. And hopefully, your time in this life will have taught you that lesson. So that when you move on to the next iteration of your existence you will not feel a need to be so selfish, to be happy.

And if you have not learned this lesson, perhaps you get sent back here to live another life, until you do.

Who knows?

 

[Balthazzar]

You want the solution? Let people live their lives as they see fit. I'm not saying go full anarchy, making murder for sport legal. I'm suggesting stop with the micro management of humanity. Let people swear, use slurs, run their businesses as they see fit. Everything we do has consequences. If you're a bakery who won't make wedding cakes for homosexuals, you're not getting their business or the business of those who agree with their cause. If you say the N word around black folks, one might punch you out. That's assault and if you have the money to sue, sue for medical expenses. If not, rethink using the term. Yes, this got political but the concept of heaven is political. It's about everyone being made to exist a certain way because big sky daddy orders it and we don't go around questioning big sky daddy, since if we're in heaven, we can't. It would be like living under Hitler if Hitler had absolute autonomy over your brain.

Sky daddy? Where are the hands and feet? Who do you think we are? Sky daddy? Get real man. Sky daddy? How about a little intellectual honesty. Honestly.

 

[YoursTrue]

You want the solution? Let people live their lives as they see fit. I'm not saying go full anarchy, making murder for sport legal. I'm suggesting stop with the micro management of humanity. Let people swear, use slurs, run their businesses as they see fit. Everything we do has consequences. If you're a bakery who won't make wedding cakes for homosexuals, you're not getting their business or the business of those who agree with their cause. If you say the N word around black folks, one might punch you out. That's assault and if you have the money to sue, sue for medical expenses. If not, rethink using the term. Yes, this got political but the concept of heaven is political. It's about everyone being made to exist a certain way because big sky daddy orders it and we don't go around questioning big sky daddy, since if we're in heaven, we can't. It would be like living under Hitler if Hitler had absolute autonomy over your brain.

There is one problem with that. Most people want to be happy.

 

[YoursTrue]

The idea of paradise falls into the same bucket as utopia; it's not realistic. If you want to be happy forever, you have to define happiness. Is that a permanently sustainable state and is it even desirable to be permanently happy, without contrast? Would happiness not lose something were there no contrast? Furthermore, which sorts of alteration would it take to make humans eternally happy? The way I understand it, the concept is more horrifying than it is pleasing. How would everyone get along? They would have to desire the same thing and be the same way. They would also have to be free of sin.

From what I understand of sin, it's missing the mark of holy perfection. That which is sinful, can not exist along side god. This being said, we are made perfect in the eyes of god. That is, the things which make us human, no longer exist. There is no lust, nor lying. No swearing, nor alcoholism. No disease, no death, and most of all, no change. Perfection is unchanging, not changing. Therefore, heaven is a place of stagnation. As if a city made of everything precious. Gold, is it? What is the worth of gold when gold is of unlimited quantity? When it's as common as the stones we see every day? Sapphire? What value does sapphire have, when it's everywhere and anyone can pick up a piece?

If every stone is perfectly cut, what value does it have? If every human can sing perfectly, what is the value of beautiful music? If every human can paint perfectly, what is the value of art? What are the politics of heaven? God plays all powerful king, ruling over his domain with absolute authority. I thought most Christians were against totalitarianism. You don't get votes in heaven. You don't get to choose who you're going to be or what you're going to do. It's not the sort of paradise, you do anything you want. Well, it is but what you want is already decided. That is, since you're made like Christ, you're only going to want things he'd want. This means you're going to want to sing praises and do things which praise your tyrant for eternity.

I'm rather sure most people wouldn't want to do this in the real world. Appreciation for good done fades with time and the only way to ensure you comply, is to remove what makes you... you. You'd be a robot, simply put. You'd have no free will worth having. Why would anyone desire this? Simple. They desire it because it's idealism. Reason is suspended in favor of spiritual pipe dreams which if realized, are the absolute worst sort of hell we can imagine. However, you'd not know you were a slave in hell. You'd only know what you were told to know.

Let me put it to you this way: I have constant pain, so I try (fairly unsuccessfully) to alleviate it. But I can slightly conceive of a life (my life) where I can wake up in the morning and be mobile and strong and without pain, with things I enjoy to look forward to. Forever.

 

[Brian2]

The idea of paradise falls into the same bucket as utopia; it's not realistic. If you want to be happy forever, you have to define happiness. Is that a permanently sustainable state and is it even desirable to be permanently happy, without contrast? Would happiness not lose something were there no contrast? Furthermore, which sorts of alteration would it take to make humans eternally happy? The way I understand it, the concept is more horrifying than it is pleasing. How would everyone get along? They would have to desire the same thing and be the same way. They would also have to be free of sin.

From what I understand of sin, it's missing the mark of holy perfection. That which is sinful, can not exist along side god. This being said, we are made perfect in the eyes of god. That is, the things which make us human, no longer exist. There is no lust, nor lying. No swearing, nor alcoholism. No disease, no death, and most of all, no change. Perfection is unchanging, not changing. Therefore, heaven is a place of stagnation. As if a city made of everything precious. Gold, is it? What is the worth of gold when gold is of unlimited quantity? When it's as common as the stones we see every day? Sapphire? What value does sapphire have, when it's everywhere and anyone can pick up a piece?

If every stone is perfectly cut, what value does it have? If every human can sing perfectly, what is the value of beautiful music? If every human can paint perfectly, what is the value of art? What are the politics of heaven? God plays all powerful king, ruling over his domain with absolute authority. I thought most Christians were against totalitarianism. You don't get votes in heaven. You don't get to choose who you're going to be or what you're going to do. It's not the sort of paradise, you do anything you want. Well, it is but what you want is already decided. That is, since you're made like Christ, you're only going to want things he'd want. This means you're going to want to sing praises and do things which praise your tyrant for eternity.

I'm rather sure most people wouldn't want to do this in the real world. Appreciation for good done fades with time and the only way to ensure you comply, is to remove what makes you... you. You'd be a robot, simply put. You'd have no free will worth having. Why would anyone desire this? Simple. They desire it because it's idealism. Reason is suspended in favor of spiritual pipe dreams which if realized, are the absolute worst sort of hell we can imagine. However, you'd not know you were a slave in hell. You'd only know what you were told to know.

I think we would be able to see what is truly valuable and value those things.
But the Kingdom of God keeps expanding so who knows what awaits in the next life, and the challenges we might face with our new set of values and the old ones left behind.

 

[Balthazzar]

I think we would be able to see what is truly valuable and value those things.
But the Kingdom of God keeps expanding so who knows what awaits in the next life, and the challenges we might face with our new set of values and the old ones left behind.

Values change or maybe they evolve as we test the waters - Kingdom of God - Religious terms that seem to upset some types. I use them too. My root system demands it. Trees and roots - and branches, personal values on to societal. Navigation isn't always easy, but it can be interesting. You know, never really knowing what's next or how society might view or react to personal opinion and values.

 

[Reyn]

I think we would be able to see what is truly valuable and value those things.
But the Kingdom of God keeps expanding so who knows what awaits in the next life, and the challenges we might face with our new set of values and the old ones left behind.

Where in scripture does it state that the kingdom of god keeps expanding? Where does it say there are challenges in said kingdom?

 

[Brian2]

Values change or maybe they evolve as we test the waters - Kingdom of God - Religious terms that seem to upset some types. I use them too. My root system demands it. Trees and roots - and branches, personal values on to societal. Navigation isn't always easy, but it can be interesting. You know, never really knowing what's next or how society might view or react to personal opinion and values.

Society is changing so fast these days too.