If heaven is a place of perfection, and angels created in perfection, how was their rebellion possible?

[anna.]

The juxtaposition of a verse in Revelation against a verse in 1Peter causes a bit of confusion. If you include more verses from chapter 12 of revelation then it can be seen that Michael and his angels are redescribed in verse 10 and 11 as the brothers and sisters of Jesus who triumph through: the word of their testimony, not loving their own lives (even unto death), and "The blood of the lamb." The name 'Michael' could be a weird transliteration of 'Like God' since it sounds like 'Like el'.

Who is it that fights with these brothers and sisters? It is the world. The scepter is iron, because it is an unwavering standard and timeless.

Michael actually means "who is like God."
I understand the brethren, or brothers and sisters, as the church on earth being sung about by the church in heaven.

I'm not trying to connect any of the verses to each other, just presenting various references to Satan's ejection from Heaven.

A quote from 2 Peter about those who were dragged away by the Syrians and by the Babylonians to live in darkness. Few returned.

That verse says what it says; in context, if God didn't spare the angels, he won't spare false prophets either.

Verse 2 says "Son of Man say this to the ruler of Tyre." Tyre is a country, and its king is being described by Ezekiel. "You were the garden of God..." Could it be that its not actually about the king of Tyre? Maybe, depending upon when it is written. The king of Tyre could be a stand in for someone else such as any king, any country or any bad leader. Could be. A recurring theme is that the nations are like grass that withers away, impermanent rather than permanent. This stands in stark contrast to how people wish things to be: permanent, stable, consistent.

I agree this is about the King of Babylon, but follow along with this, more or less:

Translations such as the KJV follow the lead of Latin versions, though they render the word helēl' as the proper name "Lucifer." Those versions typically make a different choice when the same term is used in Latin translations of 1 Peter 1:19, where that word is applied to Jesus Christ. Over the centuries, commentators noticed similarities between this description and passages about the fall of Satan from heaven (Revelation12:7–9; Luke 10:18). Writers such as Dante Alighieri and John Milton applied this directly in their work. Over time, it became traditional wisdom to use "Lucifer" as a proper name for the Devil.​

​

Many scholars believe Isaiah was using the Canaanite myths of his time to mock the king of Babylon's ambitions. It is possible Isaiah is using this section of his song as a secondary reference to Satan. Yet that doesn't seem to be an important part of his message. The description of the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:12–19 is more directly related to the fall of Satan.​

 

[Brickjectivity]

Michael actually means "who is like God."
I understand the brethren, or brothers and sisters, as the church on earth being sung about by the church in heaven.

I'm not trying to connect any of the verses to each other, just presenting various references to Satan's ejection from Heaven.

Acknowledged!

That verse says what it says; in context, if God didn't spare the angels, he won't spare false prophets either.

I will file that.

I agree this is about the King of Babylon, but follow along with this, more or less:

Translations such as the KJV follow the lead of Latin versions, though they render the word helēl' as the proper name "Lucifer." Those versions typically make a different choice when the same term is used in Latin translations of 1 Peter 1:19, where that word is applied to Jesus Christ. Over the centuries, commentators noticed similarities between this description and passages about the fall of Satan from heaven (Revelation12:7–9; Luke 10:18). Writers such as Dante Alighieri and John Milton applied this directly in their work. Over time, it became traditional wisdom to use "Lucifer" as a proper name for the Devil.Many scholars believe Isaiah was using the Canaanite myths of his time to mock the king of Babylon's ambitions. It is possible Isaiah is using this section of his song as a secondary reference to Satan. Yet that doesn't seem to be an important part of his message. The description of the king of Tyre in Ezekiel 28:12–19 is more directly related to the fall of Satan.

The verse in question is:

[Luk 10:17-19 NIV] 17 The seventy-two returned with joy and said, "Lord, even the demons submit to us in your name." 18 He replied, "I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. 19 I have given you authority to trample on snakes and scorpions and to overcome all the power of the enemy; nothing will harm you.​

The implication to me is that Jesus here is talking about the actions of the seventy two. Milton is known to be a reverent person and politically active. He serves the kingdom as a censor at one time. I haven't read Paradise Lost, however on the internet the theme of it is Hierarchy, the consequences of disobedience, the possibility of redemption, and the hierarchical structure of the universe. Its not a treatise on interpreting Luke 10. So while Christians have had fun with his Paradise poems they are being misused when people say that Satan is an angel who falls. In a poem he is an angel who falls from heaven, however in scripture he is a force the serves God and does not fall from any position at all. Whether he is part of humans or is a provocative force is debatable, though I take the former position that he's that sin which desires to rule over Cain.

 

[McBell]

Biblical: eternal joy (Psalm 16:11), an everlasting kingdom (Daniel 7:14) without death, mourning, crying or pain (Rev. 21:4). Because that's what I've been taught from childhood. Everything made new, in the perfect presence of God.

Fair enough

But most of all that once you're there, it's forever.

I have heard this claim by many a theist.
I do note you did not present a verse for it...

And hell is forever too.

I have heard this claim by many a theist.
I do note you did not present a verse for it...

Which is what scares a lot of believers into believing.

The fear of punishment and hope for reward is strong motivation for blind obedience.

 

[anna.]

I have heard this claim by many a theist.
I do note you did not present a verse for it...


I have heard this claim by many a theist.
I do note you did not present a verse for it...

Not that there aren't any, I didn't realize you'd be waiting for them. I just googled bible verses about eternity, so...

What Does the Bible Say About Eternity?

Bible verses about Eternity

www.openbible.info

The fear of punishment and hope for reward is strong motivation for blind obedience.

I don't disagree at all.

 

[McBell]

1

Not that there aren't any, I didn't realize you'd be waiting for them. I just googled bible verses about eternity, so...

What Does the Bible Say About Eternity?

Bible verses about Eternity

www.openbible.info

I don't disagree at all.

Nice long list of verses with the word "eternity"
I did not see one that said anything about being in heaven for eternity...

 

[AdamjEdgar]

The juxtaposition of a verse in Revelation against a verse in 1Peter causes a bit of confusion. If you include more verses from chapter 12 of revelation then it can be seen that Michael and his angels are redescribed in verse 10 and 11 as the brothers and sisters of Jesus who triumph through: the word of their testimony, not loving their own lives (even unto death), and "The blood of the lamb." The name 'Michael' could be a weird transliteration of 'Like God' since it sounds like 'Like el'.

where in those verses does it say that?

 

[anna.]

1

Nice long list of verses with the word "eternity"
I did not see one that said anything about being in heaven for eternity...

Eternal life, eternal damnation. It's there. I don't know what you're getting at, really.

 

[Brickjectivity]

where in those verses does it say that?

chapter 12 of revelation then it can be seen that Michael and his angels are redescribed in verse 10 and 11 as the brothers and sisters of Jesus

I say it "can be seen" not "says." Its up to you to decide if its what God says, not for me to tell you what God says. I think its obvious though. Here is the extended passage with bold by me to point out instead of using my finger:

[Rev 12:7-11 NIV] 7 Then war broke out in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. 8 But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. 9 The great dragon was hurled down--that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. 10 Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Messiah. For the accuser of our brothers and sisters, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down. 11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.​

The major victory against the dragon is celebrated as the triumph of the brothers and sisters.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

11 They triumphed over him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.The major victory against the dragon is celebrated as the triumph of the brothers and sisters.

you misrepresent the text...it says that they triumphed over Satan by the blood of the lamb.

This means triump is only possible through the cross...as is described for thousands of years by the Old Testament Sanctuary Service (culminating in the Day of Atonement).

So humanity has not triumphed by itself...that's theologically impossible.

 

[Brickjectivity]

you misrepresent the text...it says that they triumphed over Satan by the blood of the lamb.

This means triump is only possible through the cross...as is described for thousands of years by the Old Testament Sanctuary Service (culminating in the Day of Atonement).

So humanity has not triumphed by itself...that's theologically impossible.

I did not misrepresent anything and explained exactly what I thought and why, carefully and with courtesy. Your ad hominem attack is worthless to me and shows that talking to you is a waste of time. I resent having given you any information are spared a thought to consider making my thoughts plain, since you were just waiting for an opportunity to backstab somebody.

 

[AdamjEdgar]

I did not misrepresent anything and explained exactly what I thought and why, carefully and with courtesy. Your ad hominem attack is worthless to me and shows that talking to you is a waste of time. I resent having given you any information are spared a thought to consider making my thoughts plain, since you were just waiting for an opportunity to backstab somebody.

My aim wasnt to backstab...

I have done nothing more than let the text explain itself and the meaning is clear if one simply uses a common understanding of language comprehension when reading it. That is the crux of understanding the bible, letting it explain itself. If one is unsure of meaning, then one can use the built in concordances to cross reference related texts to ensure correct interpretation.