If I am not a sinner, do I need a savior?

[McBell]

I thought we were talking about the blanket concept of "sin," not what may or may not constitute a specific example of sin...

What difference does it make?
I mean, really?
What difference does it make if we are talking a specific sin or the umbrella term sin?

 

[sojourner]

What difference does it make?
I mean, really?
What difference does it make if we are talking a specific sin or the umbrella term sin?

Because, for those who deal with sin, it's an inherent part of the human condition, not some random happenstance. It makes a difference because the way in which it is conceptualized changes the paradigm drastically.

 

[McBell]

Because, for those who deal with sin, it's an inherent part of the human condition, not some random happenstance. It makes a difference because the way in which it is conceptualized changes the paradigm drastically.

Really?
How?
I am not trying to be a pain in the arse, I honestly do not see any difference.

 

[sojourner]

Because the example you gave of a certain circumstance being sin for one, but sin for another is not what I'm talking about. At all. If I eat pork, that's not a sin. If a Jew eats pork, that's a sin. So what? What I'm saying is that where a general belief in the human disposition to sin is concerned, God is a given, because one can only sin against God. Therefore, if one doesn't believe in God, one cannot, by definition, believe in sin. It has nothing to do with the varying shades of grey where sin is concerned. It has everything to do with a belief in sin at all.

 

[waitasec]

Because the example you gave of a certain circumstance being sin for one, but sin for another is not what I'm talking about. At all. If I eat pork, that's not a sin. If a Jew eats pork, that's a sin. So what? What I'm saying is that where a general belief in the human disposition to sin is concerned, God is a given, because one can only sin against God. Therefore, if one doesn't believe in God, one cannot, by definition, believe in sin. It has nothing to do with the varying shades of grey where sin is concerned. It has everything to do with a belief in sin at all.

i wish more christians thought like this...

my only concern is the sin police, those who judge others by the standards that they adhere to....

therefore because i am not a sinner i do not need a saviour...

if one doesn't believe in God, one cannot, by definition, believe in sin.

 

[McBell]

Because the example you gave of a certain circumstance being sin for one, but sin for another is not what I'm talking about. At all. If I eat pork, that's not a sin. If a Jew eats pork, that's a sin. So what? What I'm saying is that where a general belief in the human disposition to sin is concerned, God is a given, because one can only sin against God. Therefore, if one doesn't believe in God, one cannot, by definition, believe in sin. It has nothing to do with the varying shades of grey where sin is concerned. It has everything to do with a belief in sin at all.

Ah.
That makes sense.
Thank you for spelling it out for me.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

That person would be equivalent to Jesus, and would have satisfied the requirements to avoid death. You could then be a stand in for those if you wanted, or just continue to live forever.
The wages of sin is death, if you don't sin, you don't die.

 

[Katzpur]

That person would be equivalent to Jesus, and would have satisfied the requirements to avoid death. You could then be a stand in for those if you wanted, or just continue to live forever.
The wages of sin is death, if you don't sin, you don't die.

Mike, would you mind elaborating on the kinds a sins a 3-hour-old baby who died might have committed.

 

[Just_me_Mike]

Mike, would you mind elaborating on the kinds a sins a 3-hour-old baby who died might have committed.

It is a good question. People approach this differently, and I believe whole religious doctrines have been developed because of this very question.
If we use the bible and the bible only, there can only be one person who has no sin. Jesus. Yet this leaves a valid question about infants that die.
I might be OK with the idea that they are born sinners, but are saved just as anyone else is saved, via what Jesus did. I am not so quick to say they will simply cease to exist.

At the same time I find it unbiblical to create whole doctrines about the topic, when I don't believe we have the latitude biblically speaking to do such a thing.

Since we, I have no idea who is saved or not, I would not begin to say who ceases to exist, and who doesn't. Best to just leave that with God.

Does that make sense at all?

 

[sojourner]

i wish more christians thought like this...

my only concern is the sin police, those who judge others by the standards that they adhere to....

therefore because i am not a sinner i do not need a saviour...

And I wish they'd stop trying to foist that belief on you. I don't know why these people can't seem to meet folks where they are and discuss human wholeness from any number of perspectives...

 

[waitasec]

And I wish they'd stop trying to foist that belief on you. I don't know why these people can't seem to meet folks where they are and discuss human wholeness from any number of perspectives...

:rainbow1:

i'm not sure if you understand how deep the sin police have dug their hole...

it's an interesting thing to experience when the parents of your child's friends shun you when they are aware of your atheism... as if all of a sudden you're not trustworthy because you have no moral compass.
:sad:

 

[sojourner]

:rainbow1:

i'm not sure if you understand how deep the sin police have dug their hole...

it's an interesting thing to experience when the parents of your child's friends shun you when they are aware of your atheism... as if all of a sudden you're not trustworthy because you have no moral compass.
:sad:

I live in Missouri. Of course I know. One of my dearest friends is gay. Another of my dearest friends is an atheist. I cannot imagine not being with them for eternity. Look: The way I see it, we're all zipping around on this big ball in space, and we all make sense of it the best we can. My concern is not for rightness of belief, but for the truth of wholeness. For me, Xy does that. Doesn't work for others. So what? In the end, it really doesn't matter all that much, so long as one is whole.

 

[waitasec]

I live in Missouri. Of course I know. One of my dearest friends is gay. Another of my dearest friends is an atheist. I cannot imagine not being with them for eternity. Look: The way I see it, we're all zipping around on this big ball in space, and we all make sense of it the best we can. My concern is not for rightness of belief, but for the truth of wholeness. For me, Xy does that. Doesn't work for others. So what? In the end, it really doesn't matter all that much, so long as one is whole.

:candle:

 

[newhope101]

I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk Cameronisms here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

Yes, by the way I see things biblically. The reason being one MUST accept the ransom sacrifice of Jesus Christ. This is pivotal. Why? Because mankind has been condemned as a result of the sin of Adam and Eve.

It is hard to explain what this sin is about. I'll try. After Adam and Eve sinned one of their first realizations was that they were naked. This simply means without clothes so not a big deal as such, and it was true. The thing is to speak to a concept of nakedness there is an underlying presumption that nakedness is not a natural form. What changed that these two decided to cover their private parts. Many tribes are naked and this is natural now a days. There is no shame as people are used to it. That is how it is like for any other animal. If no one ever murdered because this was a sinnless world would there be no such a word as murderer, theif, liar. Sin entered the world and such words became required. If Adam and Eve remained perfect such words would be meaningless. The word and implication of 'sin' would be meaningless. That is the perfect state and none are there spiritually as it is impossible now.

I believe it makes no difference what you believe or do. You will suffer the recompenses of this world but because Jesus died for us you will be excused from being mislead, forgiven and not forgotten. Most people will be resurrected, maybe every single person, including Adam and Eve. However if you accept Jesus as saviour you will have everlasting life and be resurrected immediately on your last day in your physical body. It is a condition of the heart thing and God can read hearts. Jesus will do his fathers will. So it is hard to say where the line is. However, Jesus said to a murderer on the cross next to him that today he will be with Jesus in paradise. At the last minute this guy put faith in Jesus by defending him and requesting that Jesus remember him when he gets into His kingdom. This was a true change of heart. If this murderer had of lived he would have repented, so it's about what is going on in your head and heart as it relates to Jesus's sacrifice, that will determine if you get to heaven straight away or have to wait untill a resurrection at the end of days. At that time there will be no need for faith. You will know the truth and have a choice. Many still will choose the final death.

Those that died before Jesus did not get the benefit of the sacrifice. They knew God, but not Jesus. These went to sleep and will awake at the resurrection. Although I question a few may have been raised by God and special favour. A few such as Enoch appear to have seen Jesus with deep understanding of the things to come. That's another topic.

So YES you need to be saved regardless of being perfectly behaved. If you can imagine the concept of sin, you remain in an imperfect state. You require an attonement for this state which Jesus has provided for everyone.

That's what I reckon anyway. I do not think my beliefs align with any particular faith. more a mix!!!

 

[Nisou Kitsune]

No, you dont need to be saved, because you have done nothing wrong.

 

[opuntia]

Alceste[/left];2382960]I asked this on another thread and it seems to have stumped the "theologian". I wondered if any other Christian would like to have a go.

So, do I? I don't want to hear any tedious, irrelevant Kirk

Cameronisms​

here ("have you ever been a speeder, have you ever littered, have you ever burned ants with a magnifying glass, have you ever masturbated", etc). If you think it is impossible for me to be free from sin, just treat the question as a hypothetical. Imagine a person who has never done any of the things you think are "sins" and tell me if they need saving. Yes or no, and why.

A man without sin is perfect. Are you telling us you are perfect? If you are, we should come to you for answers just like the people came to Jesus for answers. You must be like Jesus? Shall we call you Jesus? Can you answer any and all questions that will be posed to you, Perfect Man without sin?

To sin is to break the law (1 John 3:4). When God established His laws to Moses, He expected them to obey them. And whenever anyone broke a law, they sinned. In order to be sinless, you have to know all the laws that exist in Heaven and follow them. If you have succeed, you are certainly like unto Jesus.

Of course, to follow such laws God will have to endow you with special powers in order to abide such heavenly laws--a mere mortal man could not keep such laws. What laws God has given are those we can keep as mortals. It would be unreasonable to expect our children to abide by our adult laws, so it would be unreasonable for God to give us laws we cannot follow.

 

[waitasec]

A man without sin is perfect. Are you telling us you are perfect? If you are, we should come to you for answers just like the people came to Jesus for answers. You must be like Jesus? Shall we call you Jesus? Can you answer any and all questions that will be posed to you, Perfect Man without sin?

To sin is to break the law (1 John 3:4). When God established His laws to Moses, He expected them to obey them. And whenever anyone broke a law, they sinned. In order to be sinless, you have to know all the laws that exist in Heaven and follow them. If you have succeed, you are certainly like unto Jesus.

Of course, to follow such laws God will have to endow you with special powers in order to abide such heavenly laws--a mere mortal man could not keep such laws. What laws God has given are those we can keep as mortals. It would be unreasonable to expect our children to abide by our adult laws, so it would be unreasonable for God to give us laws we cannot follow.

sin is the standard YOU adhere to...
so don't go applying your standard of imperfection on me captain...
i guess common sense isn't so common... especially to those that don't want to figure it out for themselves and would rather be told what to think.

 

[McBell]

A man without sin is perfect. Are you telling us you are perfect? If you are, we should come to you for answers just like the people came to Jesus for answers. You must be like Jesus? Shall we call you Jesus? Can you answer any and all questions that will be posed to you, Perfect Man without sin?

To sin is to break the law (1 John 3:4). When God established His laws to Moses, He expected them to obey them. And whenever anyone broke a law, they sinned. In order to be sinless, you have to know all the laws that exist in Heaven and follow them. If you have succeed, you are certainly like unto Jesus.

Of course, to follow such laws God will have to endow you with special powers in order to abide such heavenly laws--a mere mortal man could not keep such laws. What laws God has given are those we can keep as mortals. It would be unreasonable to expect our children to abide by our adult laws, so it would be unreasonable for God to give us laws we cannot follow.

Except the fact that your god is not the only god people worship.

Interesting how some people tend to forget this little fact when ranting and raving about sin.