If Jesus could heal blind men, why didn't he just heal blindness?

[InvestigateTruth]

Actually as soon as I had hit send I remembered what the Baha'i doctrine on the after life is. You do not believe in Heaven and Hell as the big three do. We believe they are spiritual conditions and distinct locations. You guys believe they are qualities of proximity. Let me ask it differently. We all do things in our life that cause harm to others. Sometimes they cause serious harm to people innocent of the sin we committed. On what basis can a just God forgive this in Baha'i? Does not great wrong demand great payment? Also if God is omnipresent how can I be in a place that has less God in it? God is absolute perfection, how can he exist with imperfection in heaven or for eternity? I am asking more for clarification than argument. Thought I would give you a break at least until you have been debating a day or two. Is Hitler in heaven but in the cheapest of seats or something given your views? Also it seems that it is compulsory heaven for all in your view even though many do not want to go to any version of it and hate God, how does that work?

Hi 1robin, I put these paragraphs together in a way you need to read the whole thing, to get Baha'i view:

When a wrongdoer treats others unfairly, punishing the wrongdoer has no benefit for the wronged ones. So, let's say if a person wrongfully stole 1000$ from another person, and never returned it in this world, and was never identified, punishing the thief has no benefit for the one who lost his money. But instead God compensates the one who was treated unfairly with the things of the next world, for the things of this world such as money does not exist in the next world, but the spiritual life after death is another world. Hence God compensates whoever was treated unfairly with the things of the next world which are spiritual (Such as spiritual food, as Jesus called Heavenly bread)
As for the ones who are wrongdoers, there will be a punishment according to what they did, but this punishment is not everlasting, and God may eventually forgive them.
Jesus said if they slap you, show the other side. He taught forgiveness, and we know if anyone is treated unfairly here and is not compensated for it in this life, in the next life God would.
You also mentioned regarding Baha'i Belief about Hell and Heaven. We believe some of the scriptures of the past were written with symbolic language to make them comprehensible for the people of the older ages. In our view, spirit is free from the limitations of space. For example it is said, Love is in the Heart, but if we happen to open the Heart, love is not there. It is no where yet exists. Spirit is similarly a non-materialistic existence, and the term 'space' does not apply to it in our view. Likewise the Spiritual Worlds of God are not physical existence.
Baha'i Scriptures explains the process of going from this world to the next, is analogues to the process of coming from womb of mother to this world. When we were in the womb we would not know anything about outside, likewise (and by far more) we do not know about the next life. It’s not possible to know it while we are here. When we were in the womb, we were developing the things we need for living here such as eyes, ears, hands and feet, but when we are here, we are developing the things we need in the next life. These are spiritual qualities. The mission of Christ and any other Manifestations of God has always been to enable us to acquire the things that we need in the next life, for obtaining those things is equal to being saved. But a person who has not developed spiritual qualities, is like a person that when he was in the womb did not develop his hands, eyes or ears. So in the next life he would be as paralyzed, as blind and deaf in a spiritual sense. The mission of Jesus was to cure these spiritual defectiveness, to cure the blind, and paralyzed spirits, so when after the physical body dies, then the spirit can live with happiness in the life to come, otherwise life in there will be like hell!, and this is that puishement that their own selves have given themselves!

 

[1robin]

Hi 1robin, I put these paragraphs together in a way you need to read the whole thing, to get Baha'i view:

When a wrongdoer treats others unfairly, punishing the wrongdoer has no benefit for the wronged ones. So, let's say if a person wrongfully stole 1000$ from another person, and never returned it in this world, and was never identified, punishing the thief has no benefit for the one who lost his money. But instead God compensates the one who was treated unfairly with the things of the next world, for the things of this world such as money does not exist in the next world, but the spiritual life after death is another world. Hence God compensates whoever was treated unfairly with the things of the next world which are spiritual (Such as spiritual food, as Jesus called Heavenly bread)
As for the ones who are wrongdoers, there will be a punishment according to what they did, but this punishment is not everlasting, and God may eventually forgive them.
Jesus said if they slap you, show the other side. He taught forgiveness, and we know if anyone is treated unfairly here and is not compensated for it in this life, in the next life God would.
You also mentioned regarding Baha'i Belief about Hell and Heaven. We believe some of the scriptures of the past were written with symbolic language to make them comprehensible for the people of the older ages. In our view, spirit is free from the limitations of space. For example it is said, Love is in the Heart, but if we happen to open the Heart, love is not there. It is no where yet exists. Spirit is similarly a non-materialistic existence, and the term 'space' does not apply to it in our view. Likewise the Spiritual Worlds of God are not physical existence.
Baha'i Scriptures explains the process of going from this world to the next, is analogues to the process of coming from womb of mother to this world. When we were in the womb we would not know anything about outside, likewise (and by far more) we do not know about the next life. It’s not possible to know it while we are here. When we were in the womb, we were developing the things we need for living here such as eyes, ears, hands and feet, but when we are here, we are developing the things we need in the next life. These are spiritual qualities. The mission of Christ and any other Manifestations of God has always been to enable us to acquire the things that we need in the next life, for obtaining those things is equal to being saved. But a person who has not developed spiritual qualities, is like a person that when he was in the womb did not develop his hands, eyes or ears. So in the next life he would be as paralyzed, as blind and deaf in a spiritual sense. The mission of Jesus was to cure these spiritual defectiveness, to cure the blind, and paralyzed spirits, so when after the physical body dies, then the spirit can live with happiness in the life to come, otherwise life in there will be like hell!, and this is that puishement that their own selves have given themselves!

Thanks for the info. I am not at this time going to critique your faith's claims here beyond asking questions that occurred to me as I read this.


1. If I will be given spiritual gifts in the after life for material loss while on this Earth, then as I will have those spiritual gifts for eternity and my possessions for only a short time should I not make my stuff easy to take, should I not look for opportunities to be wronged so I may gain eternal recompense? That might seem a little sacrilegious but the logic is sound I believe.

2. When a wrongdoer treats others unfairly, punishing the wrongdoer has no benefit for the wronged ones. In many cases punishing those who have wronged us would be helpful to those wronged. People naturally feel like at least in the extremes of life some transcendent force should force things to reach a just conclusion. For example families who have had loved ones murdered have suffered life ling depression and mental problems, even suicide. If no one was ever punished. I would hope I would not be that way but it is easy to see the cathartic effect of those who truly wronged others receive justice as well as those wronged. Without it, it leads people to think there can be no just God governing anything.

3. As for the ones who are wrongdoers, there will be a punishment according to what they did, but this punishment is not everlasting. That is not true if it is speaking about this life. Many of those that do the even the most diabolical things are never punished in accordance with their crimes. Hitler took his own life and was never punished by anyone. The owner of playboy magazine has lived a life of affluence and sexuality and so far has suffered little for it. Many of Rome's criminal tyrants lived a full life of excess and died peacefully.

4. I agree with your spirituality being non physical in general but the Bible records many times the Holy Spirit, God, and the spirit of the Lord is at least concentrated in a local area. How do you reconcile this? I would have said the spiritual world is not bounded by the physical.

5. I as you know am well aware of what Baha'i does with other religions scripture. In principle it is no problem. In application it mangles other religious texts into a meaningless entangled non functional mess. You do not have to address this.

6. You said we are to develop attributes to enable us in the next life and then you have Jesus doing it (in your interpretations) for us. Why? Is it my responsibility or his?

I will leave it here. Shalom,

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Thanks for the info. I am not at this time going to critique your faith's claims here beyond asking questions that occurred to me as I read this.

That’s great. Feel free to ask...

1. If I will be given spiritual gifts in the after life for material loss while on this Earth, then as I will have those spiritual gifts for eternity and my possessions for only a short time should I not make my stuff easy to take, should I not look for opportunities to be wronged so I may gain eternal recompense? That might seem a little sacrilegious but the logic is sound I believe.

Well, if a person is wronged, he should seek justice. But if it was not possible to get his right back, then in this case only, God will compensate Him with the things of the next world.
But It is said in Holy Books that, being detached from worldly things would open the door to heaven and that going to heaven for a worldly and extremely rich person is much difficult comparing to a poor person. So, in this sense, I think you are right.

2. When a wrongdoer treats others unfairly, punishing the wrongdoer has no benefit for the wronged ones. In many cases punishing those who have wronged us would be helpful to those wronged. People naturally feel like at least in the extremes of life some transcendent force should force things to reach a just conclusion. For example families who have had loved ones murdered have suffered life ling depression and mental problems, even suicide. If no one was ever punished. I would hope I would not be that way but it is easy to see the cathartic effect of those who truly wronged others receive justice as well as those wronged. Without it, it leads people to think there can be no just God governing anything.

In our view, there must be a punishment for the wrongdoers, and in fact Baha'u'llah in His Book of Laws, ordained laws of punishment. So, for example for a thief, depending on the situation, a certain term of prison can be given.
But these punishments are for two purposes. One is to bring order to the earth to safeguard people. If there was no punishment, many of the thieves had no fear to steal.
The other reason, is when we are punished for our sins in this world, God will not punish us in the world to come, for God is just and does not punish twice. Therefore it is said that, it's better to pay for our sins in this world, rather than the next life which is everlasting.
As regards to people who feel better, when they see the wrongdoer is punished, it is true. Many people by seeing a revenge, feel calmer or satisfied, but the Manifestations of God, do not teach revenge and retaliation as a way to make the victim feel good. A victim who has faith in God, and has learned forgiveness would not feel depressed, even if there was no possible way to punish the wrongdoer. Essentially feeling well by revenge is not the right way to feel better, just as using drugs and alcohol to feel happy or calm, is not the right way. But forgiveness and Faith is the way God teaches us.

3. As for the ones who are wrongdoers, there will be a punishment according to what they did, but this punishment is not everlasting.That is not true if it is speaking about this life. Many of those that do the even the most diabolical things are never punished in accordance with their crimes. Hitler took his own life and was never punished by anyone. The owner of playboy magazine has lived a life of affluence and sexuality and so far has suffered little for it. Many of Rome's criminal tyrants lived a full life of excess and died peacefully.

I was speaking about life to come.

4. I agree with your spirituality being non physical in general but the Bible records many times the Holy Spirit, God, and the spirit of the Lord is at least concentrated in a local area. How do you reconcile this? I would have said the spiritual world is not bounded by the physical.

In our view, the 'capacity to understand' that people have in our time is more than, the people who lived in previous ages at the time of Jesus or Moses. Baha'is believe that the revelations of God comes according with the measure of the intelligence and capacity of understanding of the people at the time of revelation. In old days, many of the things regarding the Father, Life after Death, Holy Spirit had to be explained with Symbolic and Figurative language so that the mind of people of that time could accept and understand. So, if in the Bible the Lord is said to be concentrated in a local area, this is expressed only in a symbolic language.
As Jesus said: "I have spoken of these matters in figures of speech, but soon I will stop speaking figuratively and will tell you plainly all about the Father."

In Our view, " soon I will stop speaking figuratively and will tell you plainly all about the Father", is related to the second coming of Christ.

"Whatever proceeded from the tongue of the Son was revealed in parables, whilst He Who proclaimeth the Truth in this Day speaketh without them. " Baha'u'llah

6. You said we are to develop attributes to enable us in the next life and then you have Jesus doing it (in your interpretations) for us. Why? Is it my responsibility or his?

In our view covenant of God is like a 'mutual' agreement and contract. there is two parties in it. On one side we have God, who has promised that will never leave humanity alone, and will always send us guidance to help us and save us, through His teachings He teaches us how to get what we need to be saved. On the other side of the contract, it is humanity, who on His part must be faithful to God, and follow His guidance through Love.

 

[1robin]

That’s great. Feel free to ask...
Well, if a person is wronged, he should seek justice. But if it was not possible to get his right back, then in this case only, God will compensate Him with the things of the next world.

I was pointing out that it would seem that instead of learning to act righteously it would be easier to instead invite theft of everything I own and court being killed so as to get tons of spiritual treasure instead of working for it. I may getting a little too extreme though.

I have another unrelated question. Are there any faiths that the Baha'i do not group in with those they think are valid?

But It is said in Holy Books that, being detached from worldly things would open the door to heaven and that going to heaven for a worldly and extremely rich person is much difficult comparing to a poor person. So, in this sense, I think you are right.

I will give you the Bible take on this to contrast with. The Bible says we must learn we are bankrupt of anything that will merit heaven, and even the best of us are loaded with the sins that merit Hell. That is a truth so hard for prideful man to swallow that he resists it. Only those in general that recognize a need for God would so great he would admit these two terrible truths. A rich man is not affected by the effects of sin and rebellion as most are, he is insulated from famine, even most health problems, and is occupied in maintaining the money he thinks provides security and so does not feel the need and has a pride in self sufficiency so great he will never recognize the need for God nor humble himself to admit his sinfulness. In short he lacks humility and recognition born of need.

In our view, there must be a punishment for the wrongdoers, and in fact Baha'u'llah in His Book of Laws, ordained laws of punishment. So, for example for a thief, depending on the situation, a certain term of prison can be given.
But these punishments are for two purposes. One is to bring order to the earth to safeguard people. If there was no punishment, many of the thieves had no fear to steal.
The other reason, is when we are punished for our sins in this world, God will not punish us in the world to come, for God is just and does not punish twice. Therefore it is said that, it's better to pay for our sins in this world, rather than the next life which is everlasting.
As regards to people who feel better, when they see the wrongdoer is punished, it is true. Many people by seeing a revenge, feel calmer or satisfied, but the Manifestations of God, do not teach revenge and retaliation as a way to make the victim feel good. A victim who has faith in God, and has learned forgiveness would not feel depressed, even if there was no possible way to punish the wrongdoer. Essentially feeling well by revenge is not the right way to feel better, just as using drugs and alcohol to feel happy or calm, is not the right way. But forgiveness and Faith is the way God teaches us.

I did not really mean the satisfaction revenge gives but the faith in God that some semblance of justice produces. It is a complex issue. I do not have too many objections with morality of Baha'i's beliefs in your latest post, I just have no idea if they are true.

I was speaking about life to come.

Ok

In our view, the 'capacity to understand' that people have in our time is more than, the people who lived in previous ages at the time of Jesus or Moses. Baha'is believe that the revelations of God comes according with the measure of the intelligence and capacity of understanding of the people at the time of revelation. In old days, many of the things regarding the Father, Life after Death, Holy Spirit had to be explained with Symbolic and Figurative language so that the mind of people of that time could accept and understand. So, if in the Bible the Lord is said to be concentrated in a local area, this is expressed only in a symbolic language.
As Jesus said: "I have spoken of these matters in figures of speech, but soon I will stop speaking figuratively and will tell you plainly all about the Father."

We will never resolve our differences here. There exists no standard by which you will allow the issue to be resolved by beyond Bahaullah's. Christ made that statement is a speech where he distinguished between parables (which are less numerous) and literal instructions (which are more) and was not speaking about all of his nor any other Biblical authors revelations.

In Our view, " soon I will stop speaking figuratively and will tell you plainly all about the Father", is related to the second coming of Christ.

"Whatever proceeded from the tongue of the Son was revealed in parables, whilst He Who proclaimeth the Truth in this Day speaketh without them. " Baha'u'llah

You are really tempting me with this stuff but I will let you be for now. I will simply say that if all the Biblical verse that apply to the second coming of Christ are actually read in context it is impossible in the slightest it was Bahaullah. By the way Christ's nail marks and spear wound were left for eternity in his flesh as a symbol of the price he paid. Did Bahaullah have them?

In our view covenant of God is like a 'mutual' agreement and contract. there is two parties in it. On one side we have God, who has promised that will never leave humanity alone, and will always send us guidance to help us and save us, through His teachings He teaches us how to get what we need to be saved. On the other side of the contract, it is humanity, who on His part must be faithful to God, and follow His guidance through Love.

If I type too many more lines I am going to go right back to the second coming and drive you nuts so I will not risk that by adding to what you stated here. One thing only. You mentioned "saved" which I have never heard another faith use. Saved from what, if there is not Hell?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

I was pointing out that it would seem that instead of learning to act righteously it would be easier to instead invite theft of everything I own and court being killed so as to get tons of spiritual treasure instead of working for it. I may getting a little too extreme though.

You are asking a valid question. I have to say If we invite theft of everything I own and court being killed, then we are promoting crimes, and encouraging thieves and Criminals, and that is against the Will of God. But if instead we give our property or money to buid schools or Hospitals, and other useful things are surely acceptable to God in Baha'i view.

I have another unrelated question. Are there any faiths that the Baha'i do not group in with those they think are valid?

Baha'u'llah said, there will not come another revelation from God until 1000 years from His revelation. So, if there is any religion that was established after Baha'u'llah, we do not believe it was devinely revealed. The previous Faiths before Baha'i Faith that are confirmed are: the Babi Faith, Zoroasterism, Hinduism, Jwish Faith, Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, and sabaism.
So, I suppose any other religion that exist today, in our view is not devinely ordained.

You are really tempting me with this stuff but I will let you be for now. I will simply say that if all the Biblical verse that apply to the second coming of Christ are actually read in context it is impossible in the slightest it was Bahaullah.

In our view all the signs that are given regarding the Return of Christ are fulfilled with coming of Baha'u'llah in a spiritual and symbolic way.

By the way Christ's nail marks and spear wound were left for eternity in his flesh as a symbol of the price he paid. Did Bahaullah have them?

The Baha'is do not believe return of Manifestation of God is physical. In another word, as you know, Baha'is do not believe in physical resurrection of Jesus in the first place. We believe these are symbolic and spiritual stories in Bible with figurative and hidden meaning. As reagrding to Baha'u'llah having " nail marks ", He also had suffered in Prison, and the marks on His Body remained all His earthly life.

Baha'u'llah wrote:

"The Ancient Beauty hath consented to be bound with chains that mankind may be released from its bondage, and hath accepted to be made a prisoner within this most mighty Stronghold that the whole world may attain unto true liberty. He hath drained to its dregs the cup of sorrow, that all the peoples of the earth may attain unto abiding joy, and be filled with gladness. This is of the mercy of your Lord, the Compassionate, the Most Merciful. We have accepted to be abased, O believers in the Unity of God, that ye may be exalted, and have suffered manifold afflictions, that ye might prosper and flourish. He Who hath come to build anew the whole world, behold, how they that have joined partners with God have forced Him to dwell within the most desolate of cities! "

-- Bahá'u'lláh, Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá'u'lláh, pp. 99-100

If I type too many more lines I am going to go right back to the second coming and drive you nuts so I will not risk that by adding to what you stated here.

Regarding the details of the signs regarding the second coming and how in Baha'i View those are fulfilled, I don't mind discussing them in the same form of 'Question' and 'answer' that we have right now, though I really think those details should be discussed in a related thread.

One thing only. You mentioned "saved" which I have never heard another faith use. Saved from what, if there is not Hell?

In our view, human has a Body and Spirit. Though our nature is essentially spiritual reality, and that is by far more important than the physical earthly nature.
Having said that, both our body and spirit requires 'food' to be alive and be saved from death. The food for body is obvious what it is. The food for Spirit is the Word and guidance of God. We cannot live only by natural food, but we also need the Heavenly food. The word of God, causes our spirit to grow, and thourgh His guidance we achieve the spirtual attributes. The sign for a dead spirit is the lack of spiritual quality, and if we leave this world in such a state, then our spirit will be dead, and thus it cannot be said it was saved. But if we achieve these spiritual perfections, that is the sign of a live spirit, and once we leave the world in that state, we are saved, as our spirit is saved.
An analogy might be, if you plant some seeds, some of these grow, and trun to trees, but some of them may be destroyed and do not grow. Those that grow are saved, and those that did not grow, are gone. Likewise when we come to this world, we are here to grow in spirit, otherwise once we die we are not saved. When a Manifestation of God appears, His mission is to save mankind from the sins and bondage of natural world. He identifies the things that cause us die spiritually. These are sins that cause spirutal death. He also establisesh a new way of life, which if it is followed would result in spiritual advancement. Likewise He ordains Laws, that will bring order and unity and peace to the earth, and in that sense also saves mankind from unjustice and unfairness. (This subject is really a long subjecy, but i gave a very brief and simplified explaination as I understand it)

 

[1robin]

You are asking a valid question. I have to say If we invite theft of everything I own and court being killed, then we are promoting crimes, and encouraging thieves and Criminals, and that is against the Will of God. But if instead we give our property or money to buid schools or Hospitals, and other useful things are surely acceptable to God in Baha'i view.

A passive non resistance to crime is not a direct encouragement. I just found that I had left you hanging in this thread. If you are still here respond and I will complete my reply.