If Jesus spoke, ''father, why have you forsaken me'', then why would Xians worship the father?

[Desert Snake]

If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

As for myself, I don't think Jesus stated that, at all.
Although consequently, we are then faced with the reality that Jesus sacrificed Himself.
/for His followers.

 

[Orbit]

If Jesus said, literally, father, why have you forsaken me, then why would Xians worship the deity that forsook the one they follow/

Also:
If Jesus did state that on the cross, why would xians worship Jesus, or even follow Jesus, when He was forsaken by the deity they claim to worship as well?

As for myself, I don't think Jesus stated that, at all.
Although consequently, we are then faced with the reality that Jesus sacrificed Himself.
/for His followers.

That quote has always disturbed me. He clearly says God had forsaken him. No one ever talks about what that means.

 

[Rival]

It's a reference to Psalm 22. Read the Psalm.

 

[Tumah]

It's a reference to Psalm 22. Read the Psalm.

This doesn't change the question.

 

[Rival]

This doesn't change the question.

No, but I was just putting it out there for folks who didn't know

 

[BSM1]

It's a reference to Psalm 22. Read the Psalm.

It was explained to me a Rabbi that Jews of the period would quote the beginning of a Psalm rather than the whole thing. As Rival M pointed out the 22nd Psalms starts with "My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me?" Not only is this the "title" of the Psalm but the rest of the Psalm eloquently lays out the human condition in relation to suffering. Rather than recite the entire passage, Yeshua was using scriptural shorthand.

 

[CMike]

That quote has always disturbed me. He clearly says God had forsaken him. No one ever talks about what that means.

Kind of kills the whole he sacrificed himself theory too.

 

[rosends]

It was explained to me a Rabbi that Jews of the period would quote the beginning of a Psalm rather than the whole thing. As Rival M pointed out the 22nd Psalms starts with "My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me?" Not only is this the "title" of the Psalm but the rest of the Psalm eloquently lays out the human condition in relation to suffering. Rather than recite the entire passage, Yeshua was using scriptural shorthand.

Is there any other place where you can show this practice? I know that when authorities of the time had textual debates they would refer to psalms by a short hand, but it wasn't always the first line and it was in an effort to make a case about a point of law or tradition. Jesus was not doing that at the time, was he?

 

[Deidre]

When I was a Christian, I didn't take it that way, at all actually. I interpreted it more like how a human being would feel a sense of despair, or defeat. Jesus was human, so the story goes. If he felt human anguish, then he would cry out as he did. Doesn't mean God actually had forsaken him, but it felt that way to Jesus, at a grave time of despair.

 

[CMike]

It's a reference to Psalm 22. Read the Psalm.

How about referencing Deuterenomy as Jewish martrys have done by proclaiming "Hear O Israel, the Lord is our G-D, the Lord is One".

He picked what to reference.

 

[CMike]

It was explained to me a Rabbi that Jews of the period would quote the beginning of a Psalm rather than the whole thing. As Rival M pointed out the 22nd Psalms starts with "My God, My God. Why has thou forsaken me?" Not only is this the "title" of the Psalm but the rest of the Psalm eloquently lays out the human condition in relation to suffering. Rather than recite the entire passage, Yeshua was using scriptural shorthand.

You have an example of this? I never heard of it.

 

[CMike]

When I was a Christian, I didn't take it that way, at all actually. I interpreted it more like how a human being would feel a sense of despair, or defeat. Jesus was human, so the story goes. If he felt human anguish, then he would cry out as he did. Doesn't mean God actually had forsaken him, but it felt that way to Jesus, at a grave time of despair.

Great Jews proclaimed G-D's greatness when they were in crises upon death.

 

[BSM1]

Is there any other place where you can show this practice? I know that when authorities of the time had textual debates they would refer to psalms by a short hand, but it wasn't always the first line and it was in an effort to make a case about a point of law or tradition. Jesus was not doing that at the time, was he?

You have an example of this? I never heard of it.

Not being Jewish I can't substantiate this. I had a Rabbi as an instructor in a philosophy class back in my college days forty years ago that told me this (it was the same Rabbi who's synagogue was dynamited in Meridian, Mississippi during the civil rights troubles in the '60s). But reading the Psalms I can see where the writing would be applicable to Yeshua's situation.

 

[rosends]

Not being Jewish I can't substantiate this. I had a Rabbi as an instructor in a philosophy class back in my college days forty years ago that told me this (it was the same Rabbi who's synagogue was dynamited in Meridian, Mississippi during the civil rights troubles in the '60s). But reading the Psalms I can see where the writing would be applicable to Yeshua's situation.

Not to cast aspersions, but the unnamed leader of a reform congregation in 1968 as a source is not one which proves a point to me.

 

[Deidre]

Great Jews proclaimed G-D's greatness when they were in crises upon death.

So?

 

[CMike]

Not being Jewish I can't substantiate this. I had a Rabbi as an instructor in a philosophy class back in my college days forty years ago that told me this (it was the same Rabbi who's synagogue was dynamited in Meridian, Mississippi during the civil rights troubles in the '60s). But reading the Psalms I can see where the writing would be applicable to Yeshua's situation.

I don't. If he claims that he claimed that he was sacrificing himself.

Here is a much better one he could have referred to.

Psalms 91

1He who dwells in the covert of the Most High will lodge in the shadow of the Almighty. איֹשֵׁב בְּסֵתֶר עֶלְיוֹן בְּצֵל שַׁדַּי יִתְלוֹנָן:
2I shall say of the Lord [that He is] my shelter and my fortress, my God in Whom I trust. באֹמַר לַיהֹוָה מַחְסִּי וּמְצוּדָתִי אֱלֹהַי אֶבְטַח בּוֹ:
3For He will save you from the snare that traps from the devastating pestilence. גכִּי הוּא יַצִּילְךָ מִפַּח יָקוּשׁ מִדֶּבֶר הַוּוֹת:
4With His wing He will cover you, and under His wings you will take refuge; His truth is an encompassing shield. דבְּאֶבְרָתוֹ | יָסֶךְ לָךְ וְתַחַת כְּנָפָיו תֶּחְסֶּה צִנָּה וְסֹחֵרָה אֲמִתּוֹ:
5You will not fear the fright of night, the arrow that flies by day; הלֹא תִירָא מִפַּחַד לָיְלָה מֵחֵץ יָעוּף יוֹמָם:
6Pestilence that prowls in darkness, destruction that ravages at noon. ומִדֶּבֶר בָּאֹפֶל יַהֲלֹךְ מִקֶּטֶב יָשׁוּד צָהֳרָיִם:
7A thousand will be stationed at your side, and ten thousand at your right hand; but it will not approach you. זיִפֹּל מִצִּדְּךָ | אֶלֶף וּרְבָבָה מִימִינֶךָ אֵלֶיךָ לֹא יִגָּשׁ:
8You will but gaze with your eyes, and you will see the annihilation of the wicked. חרַק בְּעֵינֶיךָ תַבִּיט וְשִׁלֻּמַת רְשָׁעִים תִּרְאֶה:
9For you [said], "The Lord is my refuge"; the Most High you made your dwelling. טכִּי אַתָּה יְהֹוָה מַחְסִּי עֶלְיוֹן שַׂמְתָּ מְעוֹנֶךָ:
10No harm will befall you, nor will a plague draw near to your tent. ילֹא תְאֻנֶּה אֵלֶיךָ רָעָה וְנֶגַע לֹא יִקְרַב בְּאָהֳלֶךָ:
11For He will command His angels on your behalf to guard you in all your ways. יאכִּי מַלְאָכָיו יְצַוֶּה לָּךְ לִשְׁמָרְךָ בְּכָל דְּרָכֶיךָ:
12On [their] hands they will bear you, lest your foot stumble on a stone. יבעַל כַּפַּיִם יִשָּׂאוּנְךָ פֶּן תִּגֹּף בָּאֶבֶן רַגְלֶךָ:
13On a young lion and a cobra you will tread; you will trample the young lion and the serpent. יגעַל שַׁחַל וָפֶתֶן תִּדְרֹךְ תִּרְמֹס כְּפִיר וְתַנִּין:
14For he yearns for Me, and I shall rescue him; I shall fortify him because he knows My name. ידכִּי בִי חָשַׁק וַאֲפַלְּטֵהוּ אֲשַׂגְּבֵהוּ כִּי יָדַע שְׁמִי:
15He will call Me and I shall answer him; I am with him in distress; I shall rescue him and I shall honor him. טויִקְרָאֵנִי | וְאֶעֱנֵהוּ עִמּוֹ אָנֹכִי בְצָרָה אֲחַלְּצֵהוּ וַאֲכַבְּדֵהוּ:
16With length of days I shall satiate him, and I shall show him My salvation.

 

[CMike]

So?

So it was a very wussy way to meet your death.

 

[BSM1]

Not to cast aspersions, but the unnamed leader of a reform congregation in 1968 as a source is not one which proves a point to me.

I'm afraid I don't follow you.

 

[rosends]

I'm afraid I don't follow you.

Well, I don't know the Rabbi's name or his educational background or have any source which substantiates his claim, so I can't really be persuaded from my position and what I have learned textually by a third hand account of a completely different approach.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I understand it as being because He was experiencing the weight of sin. Christ was undergoing a mystical experience of experiencing the depths of human estrangement from God, while still remaining sinless Himself, in order to rectify human fallenness and put it to death.