If Jesus was God, explain this verse...

[djhwoodwerks]

Yes, God was his father, but also David and Abraham.

So Jesus had '3' fathers? David and Abraham were not Jesus' "fathers". Since God is Jesus' Father, you're claiming God can sin also? How can righteousness bare unrighteousness?

Matthew 7:18 (ESV Strong's) 18 A healthy tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a diseased tree bear good fruit.

If Jesus had sin nature, He was a diseased tree, right?

 

[djhwoodwerks]

So are you saying that in Rev when it talks about dragons and the beasts, it's real?

Nope! Do you believe an actual 'snake' spoke to eve?

I know of witnesses that believe satan used the snake like a ventriloquist dummy.

 

[Muffled]

You believe that Jesus gave the Apostles the authority to forgive the sins of the world, just as He and God can do? We sin against God, but a mere human can forgive that sin and God will accept it?

So they could have said, 'let's just forgive everyone so we all can go to heaven', or, 'let's not forgive anyone so we will be the only ones in heaven'?

I believe it is still God with that authority as the Paraclete which is God in us. So of course it is not man forgiving sin.

 

[Muffled]

Nope! Do you believe an actual 'snake' spoke to eve?

I know of witnesses that believe satan used the snake like a ventriloquist dummy.

I believe anyone can speculate but I believe it was most likely Hel who was a shape shifter but even with that ability I believe the serpent humanoid is Hel's natural racial identity.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

I believe anyone can speculate but I believe it was most likely Hel who was a shape shifter but even with that ability I believe the serpent humanoid is Hel's natural racial identity.

I see, you believe in shape shifters and humanoids, but not dragons, that's too much fantasy for you huh?

 

[Ingledsva]

Where do you get that angels don't sin?

Lucifer was an "angel" that wanted Gods throne. Lucifer became, the devil/accuser, satan/opposer.

Isaiah 42:12-15

There is no evil angel called Lucifer in Tanakh.

*

 

[Ingledsva]

I never said that the Tanakh was talking about Jesus, I said it was talking about YHVH. The writer of Hebrews says they were written about Jesus!

Hebrews 1:8-12 (ESV Strong's) 8 But of the Son he says,
“Your throne, O God, is forever and ever,
the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions.”
10 And,
“You, Lord, laid the foundation of the earth in the beginning,
and the heavens are the work of your hands;
11 they will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment,
12 like a robe you will roll them up,
like a garment they will be changed.
But you are the same,
and your years will have no end.”

Christians stealing a verse (out of context) from Psalms, - and adding Christian ideas to it, - does not in any way prove Jesus is God..

Later Christians adding "but of the son" - to a verse which I showed was about YHVH only, - obviously does not prove Jesus is God.

The verse below was about YHVH - and there is no other, - as they are Israelites and have ONE God, - no trinity.

Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

*

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

So they could have said, 'let's just forgive everyone so we all can go to heaven', or, 'let's not forgive anyone so we will be the only ones in heaven'?

Ah, but the beauty of THAT is that you are judged by the measure YOU judge, so if you forgive NO ONE, you won't be either.

Jesus did not have a "sin nature".

Except for all of the sins he did. Other than that ... total sinlessness.

If He had the sin nature, His nature would have been to sin, just like us!

Dishonoring parents (that one's in the Big Ten)
Theft/Vandalism
Assault
Bigotry
Hypocrisy (at the very least: "Hey, keep your ministry on the DL while I make all these gigantic photo ops of mine")
Not keeping Sabbath
Cursing

Why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin, with no human father, if He was, "like us in every way" anyway?

Because once you start with a bad translation, you're committed to it, besides, having a virgin birth allows you to sucker in more Greeks and Romans, who are used to Zeus/Jupiter doing that kind of nonsense all the time.

Can God bare a sinner?

He made us. He walked amongst us for a long time, even after the first "sins". Many of the biblical "heroes" are horrible sinners.

Jesus could have sinned if he wanted to, but he chose not to and to do the will of his Father.

Dishonoring parents (that one's in the Big Ten)
Theft/Vandalism
Assault
Bigotry
Hypocrisy (at the very least: "Hey, keep your ministry on the DL while I make all these gigantic photo ops of mine")
Not keeping Sabbath
Cursing

Since God is Jesus' Father, you're claiming God can sin also?

From Job 2

3 And the Lord said to Satan, “Have you considered my servant Job, that there is none like him on the earth, a blameless and upright man, who fears God and turns away from evil? He still holds fast his integrity, although you incited me against him to destroy him without reason.”

Here we see God smiting someone WITHOUT reason. Yes, according to this book, God can sin, being immoral to someone just because.

If Jesus had sin nature, He was a diseased tree, right?

Yup.

Where's the follow up to all the people he healed? What about anyone's soul going to heaven? Why do Jesus' miracles only happen around him? Why not cure someone in China from where he was in the Middle East? He can poof up food and yet were people still starving in the community?

Follow the Way if you find it to be the best, but do not idolize those who point you to it, for you'll just be disappointed.

 

[ukok102nak]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

~;> he is god in human form
thats why
being in human form he showed an example of how humans should battle bad spirits

unlike what happened in the past
when someone is being tempted by evil and been possessed by it
this is what they do
as it is written
:read:
Leviticus 20:27
A man also or a woman that divineth by a ghost or a familiar spirit, shall surely be put to death; they shall stone them with stones; their blood shall be upon them.

compared unto what christjesus did during his time being in human form
so as it is written
:read:
Luke 8:2
and certain women who had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities: Miriam who was called Magdalene, from whom seven demons had gone out;

christjesus the only begotten son of god our lord and saviour
when the time comes ... .
healed those people before
in his human form
and also
he made some of them as his disciples


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> you really been messed up by those triune leaders worshippers that you believe that christjesus is just a man
thats why
you've been misguided also by
a system of biblical interpretation taught by man

now
read again
so as it is written
:read:
Proverbs 30:4
Who hath ascended up into heaven, and descended? Who hath gathered the wind in his fists? Who hath bound the waters in his garment? Who hath established all the ends of the earth? What is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou knowest?
5 Every word of G-d is tried; He is a shield unto them that take refuge in Him.
6 Add thou not unto His words, lest He reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

do you know
who wrote the "Sayings of the Wise"

... . just askin
if we may say so . ...


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

Christians stealing a verse (out of context) from Psalms, - and adding Christian ideas to it, - does not in any way prove Jesus is God..

Later Christians adding "but of the son" - to a verse which I showed was about YHVH only, - obviously does not prove Jesus is God.

The verse below was about YHVH - and there is no other, - as they are Israelites and have ONE God, - no trinity.

Psa 102:25 Of old hast thou laid the foundation of the earth: and the heavens are the work of thy hands.

*

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Again, "devil" is written in different ways. It is not a "fallen angel". Angel's do not sin, they are immortal.

2 Peter 2:4 (ESV Strong's) 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jude 1:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

Ah, but the beauty of THAT is that you are judged by the measure YOU judge, so if you forgive NO ONE, you won't be either.

That's correct, if YOU forgive what someone has done to YOU, YOU will be forgiven, IF you ask God to forgive YOU, that doesn't mean the other persons sins are forgiven by Jesus. YOU forgive what they have done to YOU.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

Except for all of the sins he did. Other than that ... total sinlessness.

Hebrews 4:15 (ESV Strong's) 15 For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin.

Why not cure someone in China from where he was in the Middle East?

How do you know He didn't? Are you assuming, because it didn't mention it in a book you don't even accept?

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> as they say
when a dog has a son or daughter
it is still a dog whether anyone like it or not (what do people call about a male and female puppy)

but
if god the father has only begotten son
what they will call him even if he takes the form of a human
as it is written
:read:
Hebrews 2:14
Since then the children have shared in flesh and blood, he also himself in like manner partook of the same, that through death he might bring to nothing him who had the power of death, that is, the devil,

so as it is written
:read:
John 3:31
He who comes from above is above all. He who is from the Earth belongs to the Earth, and speaks of the Earth. He who comes from heaven is above all.


Philippians 2:6
who, existing in the form of God, did not consider equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied himself, taking the form of a servant, being made in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, yes, the death of the cross.
9 Therefore God also highly exalted him, and gave to him the name which is above every name;
10 that at the name of Yeshua every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,
11 and that every tongue should confess that Yeshua the Messiah is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
12 So then, my beloved, even as you have always obeyed, not only in my presence, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
13 For it is God who works in you both to will and to work, for his good pleasure.
14 Do all things without murmurings and disputes,
15 that you may become blameless and harmless, children of God without blemish in the midst of a crooked and perverse generation, among whom you are seen as lights in the world,

yeah every knee should bow, of those in heaven, those on earth, and those under the earth,
and that every tongue should confess that he is Lord
and this verse corroborate unto the given verses above
:read: (and learn the scripture first before saying anything that is against what is good and cannot lie)

Exodus 20:7
"You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes his name in vain.

indeed THE LORD YOUR GOD
MEANING THE LORD IS YOUR GOD ALSO AS SIMPLE AS THAT
WHAT A LOGIC


:ty:




godbless
unto always

 

[VioletVortex]

This is just another member of the long list of paradoxes in the bible...

 

[ukok102nak]

~;> another sentiment
as an intense sentiment of horror
which is
seemingly contradictory only unto someone who thought it cannot be explain


:ty:




godbless
unto all always

 

[moorea944]

2 Peter 2:4 (ESV Strong's) 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jude 1:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day




That's correct, if YOU forgive what someone has done to YOU, YOU will be forgiven, IF you ask God to forgive YOU, that doesn't mean the other persons sins are forgiven by Jesus. YOU forgive what they have done to YOU.

2 Peter 2:4 (ESV Strong's) 4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but cast them into hell and committed them to chains of gloomy darkness to be kept until the judgment;

Jude 1:6 (ESV Strong's) 6 And the angels who did not stay within their own position of authority, but left their proper dwelling, he has kept in eternal chains under gloomy darkness until the judgment of the great day

It is not talking about God's Holy elect. God's angels. In the org language, the word angel means messenger. In most cases, the translators have gotten it right. sometimes it's talking about a person or people, not an actual angel.

If you actually want to believe that God's angels can sin, that's up to you. I dont. I believe that God is in control of everything, esp, heaven.

Keep in mind that there are translation errors in the bible. Not by God but by man. Look at the word Lucifer. That's one right there. Not even suppose to be in there. Read another version of the bible. You wont see it at all.
Even the Satan. That is a untranslated Hebrew word. Some of the newer bibles dont even have the word "satan" in their bible. Just the correct meaning, adversary.

 

[djhwoodwerks]

If you actually want to believe that God's angels can sin, that's up to you. I dont.

I have given two examples from scripture that can be taken to mean angels do sin, please provide your scriptural examples that say angels can't sin. Not what you believe, not your opinion, but scripture that says angels can't sin.

 

[Oeste]

Jesus had to conquer sin or sin in the flesh. And he did with the help with his father. His father was working through his son every step of the way. Jesus is the perfect manifestation of his father.

Well, there you go, yoku've proven it to yourself. If Jesus is the perfect manifestation of his heavenly father then Jesus couldn't y possibly have a sinful nature.

The only way Jesus could have a "sinful nature" is if he was the imperfect manifestation of the Father, or if he was the perfect manifestation of a sinful Father.

Which scenario are you arguing, or is there a third that we should be aware of?

Jesus had to conquer sin or sin in the flesh. And he did with the help with his father. His father was working through his son every step of the way. Jesus is the perfect manifestation of his father. God was working through his son to reconcile the world back to him. (2 Cor 5) If Jesus was God that would make no sense at all. How can a God be tempted or try to conquer something... think about it.....

I have thought about it, and if Jesus is the perfect manifestation of his father, but still must overcome a sinful nature, then that means the Father has His own problems to deal with. In fact, there is no need for Him to bring mankind to Him because we're already there!

In a nutshell, there would be no hope because we would all be screwed.

But.... since he was like us, with the same nature, there was a need for him to come. He needed salvation too from his Father. He benefited from his own baptism and death.

IF Jesus is God (which totally degrades our Creator), he would be immortal like his father and couldnt die. Would need to and there would be no need for temptations.

He was flesh and bone, just like us, He didn't have our sin nature. If He had the sin nature, His nature would have been to sin, just like us! Why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin, with no human father, if He was, "like us in every way" anyway? Why didn't God just let Joseph and Mary have a son and use him?

You bring up an excellent point here djhwoodwerks…why did Jesus have to be born of a virgin? If he wanted a “sinner just like us” that he could "work through", he could have simply chosen a prophet, or let Joseph and Mary have a son.

Has this question been answered?

Why stop there? If Jesus is having a conversation with a "personification" why not convert his conversations with the Father, the apostles, the Pharisees, and Sadducee's into literary devices also?

The verses make sense as they are...I see no need to change them into symbolisms or metaphors.

Your not understanding what i'm saying. "Sometimes" it is personified. Sometimes it can be a real person, like a women or a man being called a devil for some bad reason or another. "Sometimes" it is personified, like with Paul calling sin the devil.

Look at the word "wisdom". It is personified as a woman in Proverbs

Look at the book of Daniel and Revelations. They use animals as the nations. Babylon, Greek and Rome. So simple......

You’re not understanding what I’m asking. If personification is “so simple….” and used sometimes as personification and sometimes as a real person, then you should be able to articulate which times are “sometimes” for the former, and which are “sometimes” for the latter.

For example, a simple rule of thumb might be “if the verse makes sense seek no other sense”. This verse makes perfect sense to me (and perhaps one billion others) without anyone dipping into their treasure trove of literary devices. Since you disagree, I wanted to know why, in this particular instance, do you feel compelled to “open a box”, pull out a personification tool, and apply it to this verse.

The verses make sense as they are...I see no need to change them into symbolisms or metaphors.

Actually they dont. So you believe in dragons with ten heads and ten eyes? Wow, good boy......

Nice try, but if you look at the context of my statement you'll see I was specifically referring to your conversation with djhwoodwerks regarding Satan, not a dragon with ten heads. Specifically, I wanted to know why you're personifying Satan.

Here's another verse I'd be interested in knowing how personification fits in:

"...if Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand?" Matthew 12:26

 

[Jonathan Ainsley Bain]

Matthew 4:1 Then was Jesus led up of the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil.

If Jesus was God, why was he tempted by the Devil? Can God be tempted by the Devil, his own creation?

Granted, he passed the test. But if he was God... Why was there a test in the first place? Does God need to test himself?

Are God and Jesus really one in the same? Please answer logically how this is possible given the verse above.

Jesus incarnates as God for our sake.
So he brings himself down to our level,
to help us by allowing himself to be tempted.

He suffered all the ills of being human to show us that
no amount of suffering need cause one to become cynical or evil.

Also called the 'baptism of fire'

 

[Oeste]

There is no evil angel called Lucifer in Tanakh.

I think it more accurate to say there is no evil angel called Lucifer in Orthodox Judaism.

Christians stealing a verse (out of context) from Psalms, - and adding Christian ideas to it, - does not in any way prove Jesus is God..

♫”You say ‘stealing’, I say ‘revealing’…let's not write the whole thing (Christianity) off.” ♬

Later Christians adding "but of the son" - to a verse which I showed was about YHVH only, - obviously does not prove Jesus is God.

The writer of Hebrews was just as inspired as the writers of Psalm. Any "additions" would have come from the Holy Spirit. I think you would have a difficult time arguing New Testament writings as uninspired on this forum. It would be just as difficult as a Buddhist arguing against the Tanakh.

The verse below was about YHVH - and there is no other, - as they are Israelites and have ONE God, - no trinity.

The Israelites have worshipped many Gods throughout their history, but like all of us, have only one true God. They appear to have completed a gradual shift from monolatrism to monotheism sometime during the 3rd century BC, but I’m sure many would argue the point. As to "...they are Israelites and have ONE God, - no trinity", theTriune God is one God, and I see no conflict for Christians there, but a lot of disagreement from Orthodox Jews.