If Jesus was God, Is the Christian God no more?

[Starsoul]

I'm having a hard time understanding this, how do christians explain this to themselves and others, that Jesus was God, or was one form of God, and yet he died without any defense from God?

How can God be perceived to have died with human interposition? That would mean ,that man is more powerful than God, which cant be true If God was more powerful. And if jesus has died, how could he be God, because God is forever, immortal, untouchable.

Anyone?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I'm having a hard time understanding this, how do christians explain this to themselves and others, that Jesus was God, or was one form of God, and yet he died without any defense from God?

How can God be perceived to have died with human interposition? That would mean ,that man is more powerful than God, which cant be true If God was more powerful. And if jesus has died, how could he be God, because God is forever, immortal, untouchable.

Anyone?

thank you for giving such a question

may I Ask another ?

who did really die on the cross ?

since Jesus has two natures, human nature and divine nature, the one who died on the cross is :
1) human
2) divine(God)
3)both

please answer using 1 or 2 or 3 and explain the salvation to us ?

 

[Starsoul]

who did really die on the cross ?

since Jesus has teo natures, human nature and divine nature, the one who died on the cross is :
1) human
2) divine(God)
3)both

please answer using 1 or 2 or 3 and explain the salvation to us ?

4. All of them?

What salvation? If Jesus had a divine nature, he would've saved himself from the painful death of the (supposed cross).

If he could not save himself , how did he, could he, or can he save the humanity?

And If he was indeed God, how could he let himself die on the cross with his people STILL carrying on the "Jesus is God" statement, when according to the scriptures , he's no more and hence God is no more? Is christianity Athiestic?

 

[Pegg]

Jesus is an angel of God. That is the true answer.

 

[Youtellme]

4. All of them?

What salvation? If Jesus had a divine nature, he would've saved himself from the painful death of the (supposed cross).

If he could not save himself , how did he, could he, or can he save the humanity?

And If he was indeed God, how could he let himself die on the cross with his people STILL carrying on the "Jesus is God" statement, when according to the scriptures , he's no more and hence God is no more? Is christianity Athiestic?

Hi, sorry to wade in on this discussion but perhaps I can help. First I have to agree with you. It does not make sense. The trinity teaching is riddled with contradictinons and inconsistencies.

Secondly, Jesus did die. However, he was not God and the bible actually says that God raised him from the dead on the third day.
Acts 2:24: But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
This should make it clear that Jesus is not God.

Jesus was of a divine background and had an existance in heaven as God's master worker, before coming to earth as a perfect man.
John 17:5: And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
So when Jesus was dead, God still existed, as he is seperate from Jesus. The whole point of Jesus coming to earth was to offer his life as a sacrifice equal to Adam.
1 Corintians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Adam was perfect but sinned so in order to restore man to an acceptable condition to God, and equal "Ransom Sacrifce" had to be made. This is what Jesus did. He was also perfect.

So it should be quite clear that Jesus is not God.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

4. All of them?

What salvation? If Jesus had a divine nature, he would've saved himself from the painful death of the (supposed cross).

If he could not save himself , how did he, could he, or can he save the humanity?

And If he was indeed God, how could he let himself die on the cross with his people STILL carrying on the "Jesus is God" statement, when according to the scriptures , he's no more and hence God is no more? Is christianity Athiestic?

is it sensible to you that God may be dead ?

how come? , God is dead !:sorry1:


those verses contradicting such a claim:

Deuteronomy 32:40 For I lift up my hand to heaven, and say, I live for ever.

Jeremiah 10:10 But the LORD is the true God, he is the living God, and an everlasting king: at his wrath the earth shall tremble, and the nations shall not be able to abide his indignation.

[FONT=arial, helvetica]Habakkuk[/FONT] 1:12 Art thou not from everlasting, O LORD my God, mine Holy One? we shall not die. O LORD, thou hast ordained them for judgment; and, O mighty God, thou hast established them for correction.

1 Timothy 6:16 Who only hath immortality, dwelling in the light which no man can approach unto; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honour and power everlasting. Amen.

Now according does it make any sense to claim that God had died?

or claiming Jesus is a God is somthing related to sonship?
such as these verses of Psalms

Psalms : 82
82:6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.

82:7 But ye shall die like men, and fall like one of the princes.

can we extract the answer from these verses ?

they claimed that Jesus to be God , but he died like a man .

comparing Jesus with children of the most High(sons of God) , what is the differnce?​

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Jesus is an angel of God. That is the true answer.

so the one who died on the cross is just an angel.

so according to this answer please explain the salvation for us

I maen an angel died to save the humanity!

 

[Pegg]

so the one who died on the cross is just an angel.

so according to this answer please explain the salvation for us

I maen an angel died to save the humanity!

in you're view, what is an angel?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Hi, sorry to wade in on this discussion but perhaps I can help. First I have to agree with you. It does not make sense. The trinity teaching is riddled with contradictinons and inconsistencies.

Secondly, Jesus did die. However, he was not God and the bible actually says that God raised him from the dead on the third day.
Acts 2:24: But God raised him from the dead, freeing him from the agony of death, because it was impossible for death to keep its hold on him.
This should make it clear that Jesus is not God.

Jesus was of a divine background and had an existance in heaven as God's master worker, before coming to earth as a perfect man.
John 17:5: And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.
So when Jesus was dead, God still existed, as he is seperate from Jesus. The whole point of Jesus coming to earth was to offer his life as a sacrifice equal to Adam.
1 Corintians 15:22 For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
Adam was perfect but sinned so in order to restore man to an acceptable condition to God, and equal "Ransom Sacrifce" had to be made. This is what Jesus did. He was also perfect.

So it should be quite clear that Jesus is not God.

I completely agree that Jesus is no a God , that will make it sensible.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

in you're view, what is an angel?

a Creature different from Human.

Human and Angels are different , aren't they?

 

[Pegg]

a Creature different from Human.

Human and Angels are different , aren't they?

yes they certainly are different. One is a physical intelligent creature and the other is a spiritual intelligent creature.

The word in Hebrew that we translate as 'angel' is Mal`aka... it literally means 'messenger'
So we might say that Mohammad was an angel too.

But when we speak of 'angels' we are pretty much always referring to those angels who live in heaven with God...they have bodies like God, spiritual bodies. Jesus had a spiritual body before he was a man on earth... he lived in heaven with God as an intelligent spirit creature along with all the other intelligent spirits who lived with God.

Jesus was unique though because he was the very first of the spirit creatures (angels) that God created. And after he died on earth, he returned to heaven in a spirit body just like all other spirits who live in heaven with God.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

yes they certainly are different. One is a physical intelligent creature and the other is a spiritual intelligent creature.

The word in Hebrew that we translate as 'angel' is Mal`aka... it literally means 'messenger'
So we might say that Mohammad was an angel too.

But when we speak of 'angels' we are pretty much always referring to those angels who live in heaven with God...they have bodies like God, spiritual bodies. Jesus had a spiritual body before he was a man on earth... he lived in heaven with God as an intelligent spirit creature along with all the other intelligent spirits who lived with God.

Jesus was unique though because he was the very first of the spirit creatures (angels) that God created. And after he died on earth, he returned to heaven in a spirit body just like all other spirits who live in heaven with God.

The word in Hebrew that we translate as 'angel' is Mal`aka... it literally means 'messenger'

I a gree that Jesus was a messenger who was sent from God.

An angel might be a messenger , but not every messenger to be an angel.

please give me an evidence from a sacred scripture claim that Jesus was an angel.

So we might say that Mohammad was an angel too.

we might not.

Jesus was Supported by an angel called Gabriel but he is not an angel.


the story that Jesus was an angel living in heaven is a suggestion or there is evidence beyond this claim?

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

please from any source did you extract your description of God?​

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

thank you for giving such a question

may I Ask another ?

who did really die on the cross ?

since Jesus has teo natures, human nature and divine nature, the one who died on the cross is :
1) human
2) divine(God)
3)both

please answer using 1 or 2 or 3 and explain the salvation to us ?

If we think of God as reflexive and driven purely by a will to comprehend [manifest] an otherwise abstract state of being; and then, view man's sense of self [his Ego and personal will], as an effect of his physical being*; I’d be prepared to answer your question with no. 3.

*Born with censorial awareness, man develops - through experiencing existence from a particular cognitive perspective - a sense of personal self. This "self" acquires a certain relation to the world, which becomes more and more specific during the course of an individual's life. In time, the original force behind reflection; the will to comprehend, is distracted by an individual will for other things. Man’s personal will, now determines his attitudes and his courses of actions.

I was recently given what I feel - with above distinctions in mind - is a really good explanation of the Catholic Trinity; perhaps you'll like it too:

Jesus [the Son] is man, in that he has a body and therefore an ego; and so, he must develop personal will. Through this, he comes to know what it means in regards to thought and conduct and understands why man sins.

Jesus is Divine (I do not think Catholics say that Jesus is God [the Father]), in that he, despite developing personal will, lives life by the will of God [the will to comprehend] alone.

To God then, Jesus is a self-image (what God would be like, manifested as man); to man, Jesus is a role-model on how to live as God intended him to.

The Holy Ghost [the Spirit], enables man to experience the wonder of God and God’s will, during physical life, so that he may find the desire to follow Jesus’ example. By doing this, man is saved from the sins of his Ego (his personal will).

Finally, there is the interpretation of God, sacrificing Jesus on the Cross. I think it possible to say, that God here, pardons man for his sins thanks to Jesus’ understanding of what it is like to carry an Ego. Perhaps God’s own self-image is somewhat altered after the crucifixion, so that man is given another chance? I do not know…

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

If we think of God as reflexive and driven purely by a will to comprehend [manifest] an otherwise abstract state of being; and then, view man's sense of self [his Ego and personal will], as an effect of his physical being*; I’d be prepared to answer your question with no. 3.

*Born with censorial awareness, man develops - through experiencing existence from a particular cognitive perspective - a sense of personal self. This "self" acquires a certain relation to the world, which becomes more and more specific during the course of an individual's life. In time, the original force behind reflection; the will to comprehend, is distracted by an individual will for other things. Man’s personal will, now determines his attitudes and his courses of actions.

I was recently given what I feel - with above distinctions in mind - is a really good explanation of the Catholic Trinity; perhaps you'll like it too:

Jesus [the Son] is man, in that he has a body and therefore an ego; and so, he must develop personal will. Through this, he comes to know what it means in regards to thought and conduct and understands why man sins.

Jesus is Divine (I do not think Catholics say that Jesus is God [the Father]), in that he, despite developing personal will, lives life by the will of God [the will to comprehend] alone.

To God then, Jesus is a self-image (what God would be like, manifested as man); to man, Jesus is a role-model on how to live as God intended him to.

The Holy Ghost [the Spirit], enables man to experience the wonder of God and God’s will, during physical life, so that he may find the desire to follow Jesus’ example. By doing this, man is saved from the sins of his Ego (his personal will).

Finally, there is the interpretation of God, sacrificing Jesus on the Cross. I think it possible to say, that God here, pardons man for his sins thanks to Jesus’ understanding of what it is like to carry an Ego. Perhaps God’s own self-image is somewhat altered after the crucifixion, so that man is given another chance? I do not know…

please confirm, Are you saying that Jesus is not God ?

rather, he is self-image of God

please explain more about this part.

what do you mean by self-image ?

and please explain God's role in sacrifice ?

Did God (the father) had any role in that sacrifice? and why?

 

[Pegg]

I a gree that Jesus was a messenger who was sent from God.
An angel might be a messenger , but not every messenger to be an angel.
please give me an evidence from a sacred scripture claim that Jesus was an angel.

there is only 1 Archangel. 'Arch' means 'chief' and in the bible the Archangel is the first and most authoritive angel. The apostle Paul says that Jesus will descend from heaven with an 'Archangels' voice. There is only 1 archangel mentioned in scripture and his name is Micheal.
1 Thessalonians 4:16 "because the Lord (Jesus) himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet"

The prophet Daniel names this Micheal as 'the Prince of heaven'
Daniel 12:1  “And during that time Mi′cha‧el will stand up, the great prince who is standing in behalf of the sons of your people

Jesus is called the Prince of Peace by the Prophet Isaiah
Isaiah 9:6 "For there has been a child born to us, there has been a son given to us; and the princely rule will come to be upon his shoulder. And his name will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Eternal Father, Prince of Peace"

In Revelation it is Micheal who battles with the devil and hurls him down to earth
Rev 12:7 "And war broke out in heaven: Mi′cha‧el and his angels battled with the dragon, and the dragon and its angels battled ..."

The Archangel who takes the lead in fight Satan is also the same one who Moses identified as the 'Seed of the Woman' who would bruise Satan in the head
Genesis 3:15 "And I shall put enmity between you and the woman and between your seed and her seed. He will bruise you in the head and you will bruise him in the heel.”

The Woman is the heavenly Kingdom of God and her child is Jesus.
Revelation 12:1-5 "And a great sign was seen in heaven, a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon was beneath her feet, and on her head was a crown of twelve stars,..5 And she gave birth to a son, a male, who is to shepherd all the nations with an iron rod. And her child was caught away to God and to his throne.

the story that Jesus was an angel living in heaven is a suggestion or there is evidence beyond this claim?

Yes there is.

Jesus himself said that he had come from Heaven.
John 3:13 "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man (Jesus)"

To live in heaven means that you must have a spirit body. Jesus could not have lived in heaven if he was not a spirit before he became a man.

John 5:37 And the Father himself, which hath sent me, hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

please from any source did you extract your description of God?​

God is a spirit. This means he has no physical form. He is like the wind. John 3:8 shows this to be the case:
8 "The wind blows where it wants to, and you hear the sound of it, but you do not know where it comes from and where it is going. So is everyone that has been born from the spirit.”

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

please confirm, Are you saying that Jesus is not God ?

rather, he is self-image of God

please explain more about this part.

what do you mean by self-image ?

and please explain God's role in sacrifice ?

Did God (the father) had any role in that sacrifice? and why?

What makes you say that Jesus, according to the Trinity, is God? The way I’ve understood it, is that God is one of three aspects of Divinity and Jesus, another (the third is the Holy Ghost). I think, this is a rather common interpretation - amongst Catholics, at least - but I’m sure there are many others and, perhaps you’ve come across one in which Jesus is understood to be God? I cannot tell you why though, for I am not familiar with that particular view. Personally, I cannot see why father and son would be exactly the same…

On Jesus as God’s self-mage however; the explanation I prefer, sees God as an abstract self, with an idea/image of what it would be like to materialise into physicality and live there. Man, driven by the wants of his personal will, does not live up to this idea, but Jesus, who despite the wants of personal will, acts only in will to comprehend, does.

In God’s abstract state, the ego of man (man’s personal will), is not there to interfere with the will of God; yet, in manifested practice [the world], it interferes all the time. Through Jesus, God learns why this is and, accordingly, God alters/sacrifices Its idea/image of self.

To sacrifice one’s self-image, implies revising all that one thought about oneself, others and one’s place in the world. Perhaps you too have experienced having to do this at some point in your life? If so, you know how big a crisis it can be.
God’s sacrifice of Jesus (God’s ideal way of being), would have been quite a crisis too, I think and, it is thought of great significance to man, because it acknowledges that - as a materialised being - man, cannot in fact rid himself of his ego; he can only choose to live by it or learn to master it and try to follow God’s will instead.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm having a hard time understanding this, how do christians explain this to themselves and others, that Jesus was God, or was one form of God, and yet he died without any defense from God?

How can God be perceived to have died with human interposition? That would mean ,that man is more powerful than God, which cant be true If God was more powerful. And if jesus has died, how could he be God, because God is forever, immortal, untouchable.

Anyone?

From the LDS perspective...

Jesus Christ is one of three persons in the Godhead. I say Godhead as opposed to Trinity because we don't believe in a three-in-one God. We believe in three physically distinct beings who are one in will and purpose, mind and heart. They are all three divine, and are equal in terms of the attributes that make them divine, but the Father is "The Almighty God." He is Jesus Christ's God, as Jesus himself clearly stated.

We believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was sent to Earth to atone for the sins of mankind. God the Father was the literal Father of Jesus Christ. Mary was the literal mother of Christ. So Jesus Christ had the all of the attributes of an immortal Father and all of the attributes of a mortal mother. From His mother, He inherited the ability to experience all of the things mortals experience, including disease, injury and death. From His Father, He inherited the ability to take up His own body again after death, to live eternally as an immortal, incorruptible resurrected Being.

I realize that may be a slightly different take on the subject than you'd get from a trinitarian Christian, but I hope it helps.

 

[Muffled]

I'm having a hard time understanding this, how do christians explain this to themselves and others, that Jesus was God, or was one form of God, and yet he died without any defense from God?

How can God be perceived to have died with human interposition? That would mean ,that man is more powerful than God, which cant be true If God was more powerful. And if jesus has died, how could he be God, because God is forever, immortal, untouchable.

Anyone?

This is not a valid conclusion. The fact is that God could have defended Himself and no power on earth could have killed Him.

This of course is due to the two natures that everyone has: physical body and spirit. The body dies and the spirit lives on.

 

[Muffled]

thank you for giving such a question

may I Ask another ?

who did really die on the cross ?

since Jesus has two natures, human nature and divine nature, the one who died on the cross is :
1) human
2) divine(God)
3)both

please answer using 1 or 2 or 3 and explain the salvation to us ?

Jesus died on the cross.

1. human

Both the Qu'ran and the Bible attest to this. The Spirit of God did not go through death. The Spirit left before the body died. However from a human perspective the result is the same. It is not always so. Some people do spirit walking and return to their bodies before the body dies but in the case of Jesus the body needed the Spirit to go on livinig because of its precarious position on the cross.

 

[Muffled]

4. All of them?

What salvation? If Jesus had a divine nature, he would've saved himself from the painful death of the (supposed cross).

If he could not save himself , how did he, could he, or can he save the humanity?

And If he was indeed God, how could he let himself die on the cross with his people STILL carrying on the "Jesus is God" statement, when according to the scriptures , he's no more and hence God is no more? Is christianity Athiestic?

Salvation from sin.

It is because of His divine nature that He died on the cross. A sinful human person with power would have escaped because a sinful person wouldn't care if people were saved from their sins.

Your premise is incorrect so your conclusion is not correct. The Biblical evidence contrdicts your conclusion as well. Daniel was saved from the Lion's in their den and Shadrack, Mishrak and Abednego were saved from a fiery furnace. Elijah was saved from an attacking troop of soldiers. The apostle Peter was saved from execution when an angel escorted him out of prison. Paul was saved from death from the bite of a deadly viper.

You must be misinterpeting something. God always exists.

Is the Pope Protestant? Of course Christians are not atheists or even agnostic.