If Jesus was God, Is the Christian God no more?

[Starsoul]

This is not a valid conclusion. The fact is that God could have defended Himself and no power on earth could have killed Him.

But since what you are saying applies to man, God has to be different from man in that aspect don't you think? Man can possess( by the will of God) a tiny fraction of God's quality ,for instance, the feeling of mercy that man feels is limited to his loved ones and his acquaintances, and does NOT extend to every creature on this planet which is an attribute of God, so how does a derived image of God IS god too, doesn't that make it 2 gods?

And why would God Not defend His Image if God is all powerful? Why would He risk being taken weak infront of man and consider it necessary to kill the image of Himself in such an 'ungodly' manner?

Why does God need to kill His image, when God already has the attribute of forgiving his people when forgiveness is asked for? That makes the whole crucifiction thing unnecessary, because God ,by definition has the power to forgive mankind without justifying to putting One man (Jesus) to torture ( and that too, the MOST PIOUS ONE) for the sins of the entire humanity?

How does christianity DEFEND such a cruel image of God( with apologies, only want this to be explained) Why would God be cruel to one of his favourite men to extend his mercy to the sinning majority?

This of course is due to the two natures that everyone has: physical body and spirit. The body dies and the spirit lives on.

That would mean all Humans are divine since all humans have a physical and spiritual element and they die too? While It could be accepted that Jesus ,as a man, or a Prophet of God was appointed as a human role model for the entire humanity, but he being One portion of God sounds a bit too Confusing , how could the greatness of God be ever replicated by man, man is unaware of the unseen God, isn't he?

 

[Renji]

How can a Christian be a "Christian" if we do not have faith in Christ?

 

[Starsoul]

How can a Christian be a "Christian" if we do not have faith in Christ?

Err I'm actually not a christian, But i do believe in Jesus ( Eesa' AS pbuh) and that belief contradicts with the belief of christianity and i wonder how christians do or do not struggle with the huge confusions surrounding his origin.

To me He was a MAn, mortal and he was one of the Best Men of God , a Messenger and his teachings are to be followed, but assigning him to be God, or an extension of God seems a bit too far fetched, esp when its not indicated in the Bible/gospels and the NT/OT that he ever defined himself as God.

 

[Renji]

Err I'm actually not a christian, But i do believe in Jesus ( Eesa' AS pbuh) and that belief contradicts with the belief of christianity and i wonder how christians do or do not struggle with the huge confusions surrounding his origin.

To me He was a MAn, mortal and he was one of the Best Men of God , a Messenger and his teachings are to be followed, but assigning him to be God, or an extension of God seems a bit too far fetched, esp when its not indicated in the Bible/gospels and the NT/OT that he ever defined himself as God.

I understand that and I respect your beliefs I would want to answer you now, but I have a date. I need to hurry

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Jesus himself said that he had come from Heaven.
John 3:13 "Moreover, no man has ascended into heaven but he that descended from heaven, the Son of man (Jesus)"

To live in heaven means that you must have a spirit body. Jesus could not have lived in heaven if he was not a spirit before he became a man.

fair,

please can you answer these questions :

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

in the other hand, did Jesus alone ascended to heaven? what about
Elijah and Enoch ?

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Elijah and Enoch did not descended form heaven, yet they ascended to heaven!

science proves that no human can ascend to heaven and still can breathe, because the the amount of oxygen is decreasing gradually as much as you ascending

please let me quote from Qura'an

Sūra 6:125. Those whom God (in His Plan)
Willeth to guide,—He openeth
Their breast to Islam;
Those whom He willeth
To leave straying,—He maketh
Their breast close and constricted,
As if they had to climb
Up to the skies: thus
Doth God (heap) the penalty
On those who refuse to believe.

Now, since Elijah and Enoch and Jesus ascended to heaven , we shall have one of the following conclusions:

1- God privileged them by a miracle,so that they can breathe normally

2- they have a divine nature, no need for miracles, they can do what ever they want to do.

3-thier soul ascended without thier body, and that what we call it "death".

return back to your claim:

I have some thoughts from other christians that man commit sins against God(the father) and those sins are considered to be infinite sins (unlimited); because God is "unlimited", so God to be "able" to forgive those sin there must be an unlimited sacrifice(Jesus) to forgive those sins.

Do you have such theological thoughts in your faith?

since Jesus is not God , just an angel of God, then the sins ,which are considered to be infinite, are not forgiven.

 

[Smoke]

If Jesus had a divine nature, he would've saved himself from the painful death of the (supposed cross).

Why?

.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

What makes you say that Jesus, according to the Trinity, is God? The way I’ve understood it, is that God is one of three aspects of Divinity and Jesus, another (the third is the Holy Ghost). I think, this is a rather common interpretation - amongst Catholics, at least - but I’m sure there are many others and, perhaps you’ve come across one in which Jesus is understood to be God? I cannot tell you why though, for I am not familiar with that particular view. Personally, I cannot see why father and son would be exactly the same…

On Jesus as God’s self-mage however; the explanation I prefer, sees God as an abstract self, with an idea/image of what it would be like to materialise into physicality and live there. Man, driven by the wants of his personal will, does not live up to this idea, but Jesus, who despite the wants of personal will, acts only in will to comprehend, does.

In God’s abstract state, the ego of man (man’s personal will), is not there to interfere with the will of God; yet, in manifested practice [the world], it interferes all the time. Through Jesus, God learns why this is and, accordingly, God alters/sacrifices Its idea/image of self.

To sacrifice one’s self-image, implies revising all that one thought about oneself, others and one’s place in the world. Perhaps you too have experienced having to do this at some point in your life? If so, you know how big a crisis it can be.
God’s sacrifice of Jesus (God’s ideal way of being), would have been quite a crisis too, I think and, it is thought of great significance to man, because it acknowledges that - as a materialised being - man, cannot in fact rid himself of his ego; he can only choose to live by it or learn to master it and try to follow God’s will instead.

the sentence in the parentheses is so expressive

(God’s ideal way of being)

So Jesus is somehow an Ideal model for humanity ; because it shows us the Ideal way of living .

God sent him to us to learn from him how to live , how to behave, how to give thanks,........,etc.

However, don't you think that this was the duty of any messenger was sent from GOd?

may I ask you the same question that I have asked "pegg" already

I have some thoughts from other christians that man commit sins against God(the father) and those sins are considered to be infinite sins (unlimited); because God is "unlimited", so God to be "able" to forgive those sin there must be an unlimited sacrifice(Jesus) to forgive those sins.

Do you have such theological thoughts in your faith?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

From the LDS perspective...

Jesus Christ is one of three persons in the Godhead. I say Godhead as opposed to Trinity because we don't believe in a three-in-one God. We believe in three physically distinct beings who are one in will and purpose, mind and heart. They are all three divine, and are equal in terms of the attributes that make them divine, but the Father is "The Almighty God." He is Jesus Christ's God, as Jesus himself clearly stated.

We believe that Jesus Christ, the Son of God, was sent to Earth to atone for the sins of mankind. God the Father was the literal Father of Jesus Christ. Mary was the literal mother of Christ. So Jesus Christ had the all of the attributes of an immortal Father and all of the attributes of a mortal mother. From His mother, He inherited the ability to experience all of the things mortals experience, including disease, injury and death. From His Father, He inherited the ability to take up His own body again after death, to live eternally as an immortal, incorruptible resurrected Being.

I realize that may be a slightly different take on the subject than you'd get from a trinitarian Christian, but I hope it helps.

three divines ?!

may I ask ?, are you monotheist ?

it seems confusing!

let me quote from Bible

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

can you explain how they are equal according to this verse.​

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Jesus died on the cross.

1. human

Both the Qu'ran and the Bible attest to this. The Spirit of God did not go through death. The Spirit left before the body died. However from a human perspective the result is the same. It is not always so. Some people do spirit walking and return to their bodies before the body dies but in the case of Jesus the body needed the Spirit to go on livinig because of its precarious position on the cross.

but human is limited , so accordingly the sacrifice is limited.

sins that have to be forgiven is unlimited beacuse it is against God (the unlimited)

What do you think?

Both the Qu'ran and the Bible attest to this

No, Qura'an deny Jesus's crucifixion.

 

[Hermit Philosopher]

However, don't you think that this was the duty of any messenger was sent from GOd?

I am not sure I understand this question. If you have time, could you re-phrase it for me? I've got some things to attend to today, but I will gladly pop in afterwards and see if I can answer.

On the idea of man's sin and God's sacrifice being unlimited, do you mean "unlimited" as in eternal and infinite? I don't know; I'll reflect upon it during day and get back to you!

Regards,
Hermit

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I am not sure I understand this question. If you have time, could you re-phrase it for me? I've got some things to attend to today, but I will gladly pop in afterwards and see if I can answer.

On the idea of man's sin and God's sacrifice being unlimited, do you mean "unlimited" as in eternal and infinite? I don't know; I'll reflect upon it during day and get back to you!

Regards,
Hermit

there were messengers like abraham,moses,david,...,etc, they were sent by God to teach people what God want from them to do .

can't we consider Jesus the same as them?
I mean acording to you dfinition (God’s ideal way of being)?

"unlimited" as in eternal and infinite?

yes as infinite .

 

[Pegg]

fair,

please can you answer these questions :

Proverbs 30:4 Who hath ascended up into heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in his fists? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is his name, and what is his son's name, if thou canst tell?

in the other hand, did Jesus alone ascended to heaven? what about
Elijah and Enoch ?

Genesis 5:24 And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him

2 Kings 2:11 And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven.

Elijah and Enoch did not descended form heaven, yet they ascended to heaven!

Hi Mohammed, thankyou for your reply.
Ok, firstly the proverb is asking imperfect humans to think deeply about our creator and his greatness. Its saying no human can be omniscient and go wherever they wish, they cannot control nature, the seas or winds....only God can do these things so we can rule out that Enoch or Elijah went to heaven.

The Apostle Paul speaks about Enoch. He says that Enoch’s life was cut short during a vision at Hebrews 11:5 “By faith Enoch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.”
Now consider that this was at the beginning of mankinds history around 3000 years ago... it was 3,000 years later that Jesus made the comment that 'no man had ascended to heaven'
So Enoch could not have been taken to heaven. Jude also speaks of Enoch and about why there may have been a need for God to 'transfer' his body so as to not see death.
Jude 14-15 "Yes, the seventh one [in line] from Adam, E′noch, prophesied also regarding them, when he said: “Look! Jehovah came with his holy myriads, 15 to execute judgment against all, and to convict all the ungodly concerning all their ungodly deeds that they did in an ungodly way, and concerning all the shocking things that ungodly sinners spoke against him."
Like many prophets after Enoch, those who he spoke against would likely have wanted to kill Enoch for speaking against them. So it would be reasonable that God 'took him' by cutting his life short and disposing of his body so that his religious enemies could not harm him or desecrate his body.

As regard to Elijah, yes he was swept up into the windstorm, but he did not die on that occasion. Several years later Elijah was still alive and active as a prophet for he sent a letter to Jehoram, king of Judah foretelling him of his death.
If you look at the account in 2 Kings 2 when Elijah was swept away, the account in chpt 3 tells of Jehoram thereafter taking the throne of Judah. After a few years of his rule, 2 Chronicals 21:12 gives us the account of Elijah sending Jehoram a letter.

I have some thoughts from other christians that man commit sins against God(the father) and those sins are considered to be infinite sins (unlimited); because God is "unlimited", so God to be "able" to forgive those sin there must be an unlimited sacrifice(Jesus) to forgive those sins.

Do you have such theological thoughts in your faith?

God certainly does make the promise that if a person is truly repentant (this means they are sincerely sorry for their actions and they are willing to stop practicing the sin) he can be forgiven in the name of Jesus Christ.
But there is one sin which is said to be unforgivable...it is sinning against Gods holy spirit. Satan the Devil would be one such person who has sinned against the holy spirit. Jesus said this:
Matthew 12:31 “On this account I say to YOU, Every sort of sin and blasphemy will be forgiven men, but the blasphemy against the spirit will not be forgiven. 32 For example, whoever speaks a word against the Son of man, it will be forgiven him; but whoever speaks against the holy spirit, it will not be forgiven him, no, not in this system of things nor in that to come"

since Jesus is not God , just an angel of God, then the sins ,which are considered to be infinite, are not forgiven.

Jesus is not the one who forgives us... but it is by our faith in his sacrifice, which was provided by God for that very purpose, that we can ask for God to forgive us.

does that make any sense?

 

[Pegg]

but human is limited , so accordingly the sacrifice is limited.

sins that have to be forgiven is unlimited beacuse it is against God (the unlimited)

Ah, i dont think i fully understood your question in my previous post. I think this is clearer so I can answer here.

We die because we sin. Once we have died, all our sins are forgiven because 'death' is how we repay to God for our sins.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death,
Vs 7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin"

But our problem is that we are 'born into sin' rather then 'chose' to be sinners. The scales were tipped into sin by Adam. So God had to do something to tip the scales back into perfection...he had to provide a new Adam... a new perfect man who could take our place and pay our 'wages' for us.

There were no perfect men on the earth because we are all Adams children and we are all imperfect sit on the wrong side of the scale.
Only a perfect human could tip the scales back to perfection...that perfect man was Jesus. He was not born from Adam...he is not a son of Adam, he is a perfect son of God. His life was transferred into the womb of Mary by Gods holy spirit and he was born into this world as a perfect sinless man.

He gave up his perfect life to pay for our sins in our behalf. he offered his perfect life to God in exchange for our imperfect lives. This is why he becomes the 'father' of all those having faith in his name.

Adam was our physical father and if we follow adams course of disobedience we will die in our imperfection.
But if we accept Jesus as our 'Spiritual' father, we can gain everlasting life and regain our perfection under Gods guidance.

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Hi Mohammed, thankyou for your reply.
Ok, firstly the proverb is asking imperfect humans to think deeply about our creator and his greatness. Its saying no human can be omniscient and go wherever they wish, they cannot control nature, the seas or winds....only God can do these things so we can rule out that Enoch or Elijah went to heaven.

ok, I agree with you that only God is the almighty, but do you think the proverb 30:4 is a prophecy for Jesus?

The Apostle Paul speaks about Enoch. He says that Enoch’s life was cut short during a vision at Hebrews 11:5 “By faith Enoch was transferred so as not to see death, and he was nowhere to be found because God had transferred him; for before his transference he had the witness that he had pleased God well.”
Now consider that this was at the beginning of mankinds history around 3000 years ago... it was 3,000 years later that Jesus made the comment that 'no man had ascended to heaven'

so "God took him" means that he has tranfered his dead body ?

this what I have understood from you!


anyway, Elijah -according to your explinantion- was still alive then and he did not
ascend to heaven because he sent a message to Jehoram,

do you mean that he hadn't ascended to heaven ? regardless he was alive or dead , did he ? or he did not ?

I will continue ....

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

Ah, i dont think i fully understood your question in my previous post. I think this is clearer so I can answer here.

We die because we sin. Once we have died, all our sins are forgiven because 'death' is how we repay to God for our sins.
Romans 6:23 "For the wages sin pays is death,
Vs 7 "For he who has died has been acquitted from [his] sin"

But our problem is that we are 'born into sin' rather then 'chose' to be sinners. The scales were tipped into sin by Adam. So God had to do something to tip the scales back into perfection...he had to provide a new Adam... a new perfect man who could take our place and pay our 'wages' for us.

There were no perfect men on the earth because we are all Adams children and we are all imperfect sit on the wrong side of the scale.
Only a perfect human could tip the scales back to perfection...that perfect man was Jesus. He was not born from Adam...he is not a son of Adam, he is a perfect son of God. His life was transferred into the womb of Mary by Gods holy spirit and he was born into this world as a perfect sinless man.

He gave up his perfect life to pay for our sins in our behalf. he offered his perfect life to God in exchange for our imperfect lives. This is why he becomes the 'father' of all those having faith in his name.

Adam was our physical father and if we follow adams course of disobedience we will die in our imperfection.
But if we accept Jesus as our 'Spiritual' father, we can gain everlasting life and regain our perfection under Gods guidance.

ok, why in your opinion , we shall consider this as sacrifice from God?

how did God sacrifice?

God had let a weak innocent human to die and feel pain, how can we understand that God has sacrificed?

please explain...

 

[Pegg]

ok, I agree with you that only God is the almighty, but do you think the proverb 30:4 is a prophecy for Jesus?

no, its not a prophecy about Jesus. The writer is simply asking his readers to question themselves if they know any man capable of doing such amazing things.

Its like me saying to you... "tell me, have you ever known anyone who can defy gravity...is there any family on this earth who can do that?"

so "God took him" means that he has transferred his dead body ?
this what I have understood from you!

Yes, although the bible doesnt say it, 'transferred' could mean that he transferred it from flesh to dust in the same way that he disposed of Jesus body. After Jesus death, the body disappeared from the tomb and nobody knew where it was. There is a prophecy that says that 'God would not allow the flesh of his loyal one (Jesus) to see 'corruption'" This corruption is the rotting away of the flesh....so rather then let Jesus fleshly body rot in the grave/hell, God turned it to dust to protect it from an undignified end.
Psalm 15:10 “Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell [Latin, infernus]; nor wilt thou give thy holy one to see corruption.”

With Moses, God took him up to a high mountain and then the bible says at Deut 34:5 "After that Moses the servant of Jehovah died there in the land of Mo′ab at the order of Jehovah. 6 And he proceeded to bury him in the valley in the land of Mo′ab in front of Beth-pe′or, and nobody has come to know his grave down to this day '"
So the account shows that God buried Moses body and it wasnt taken to heaven. He likely buried it himself so that the people would not turn his grave into a monument for worship the way they have done with the bodies of the 'so-called' saints of christendom for instance.

anyway, Elijah -according to your explinantion- was still alive then and he did not
ascend to heaven because he sent a message to Jehoram,

do you mean that he hadn't ascended to heaven ? regardless he was alive or dead , did he ? or he did not ?

Thats correct, Elijah was not taken to heaven by the windstorm. A windstorm could not exist where spirits exist. It could only exist in the physical world within our own atmosphere. So the heaven being spoken of is the same 'heaven' spoken of in Genesis 1:6-8 which is the 'expanse of the heavens' where birds fly. If you look at the whole account, both Elijah and Elisha were being carried miraculously around by the windstorm to various locations in Judah where they were giving messages from God.
2Kings 2:1-6 2 And it came about that when Jehovah was to take E‧li′jah in a windstorm up to the heavens, E‧li′jah and E‧li′sha proceeded to go from Gil′gal. 2 And E‧li′jah began to say to E‧li′sha: “Sit here, please, because Jehovah himself has sent me clear to Beth′el.” But E‧li′sha said: “As Jehovah is living and as your soul is living, I will not leave you.” So they went down to Beth′el. ...4 E‧li′jah now said to him: “E‧li′sha, sit here, please, because Jehovah himself has sent me to Jer′i‧cho.” But he said: “As Jehovah is living and as your soul is living, I will not leave you.” So they came on to Jer′i‧cho. ...Jehovah himself has sent me to the Jordan.” But he said: “As Jehovah is living and as your soul is living, I will not leave you.” So both of them went on."
Here are these two prophets of God being given a pretty cool ride to get around to see the people they had to see...the account isnt about dieing and being taken to heaven...its about riding in a miraculous windstorm to deliver Gods messages all over Palestine. Vs 11 "And it came about that as they were walking along, speaking as they walked, why, look! a fiery war chariot and fiery horses, and they proceeded to make a separation between them both; and E‧li′jah went ascending in the windstorm to the heavens. 12 All the while E‧li′sha was seeing it, and he was crying out: “My father, my father, the war chariot of Israel and his horsemen!” And he did not see him anymore."
This is the point where Elijah goes on alone and does not take Elisha with him anymore.

 

[Katzpur]

three divines ?!

Yes.

may I ask ?, are you monotheist ?

I would say that I am. You may disagree. It doesn't really matter, though, because God knows who I worship.

it seems confusing!

Well, let me put it this way... The only real difference between Trinitarians and myself is that I know how to count and they don't. They will tell you that the Father is God, that the Son is God, and that the Holy Ghost is God. Then, in the very next sentence, they will contradict themselves and say that there is only one God. I can at least explain the way in which the three are "one." If you can get a logical explanation from a Trinitarian, you're way ahead of me.

let me quote from Bible

John 14:28 Ye have heard how I said unto you, I go away, and come again unto you. If ye loved me, ye would rejoice, because I said, I go unto the Father: for my Father is greater than I.​

can you explain how they are equal according to this verse.​

The Father is greater in rank, or greater within the relationship than the Son. He is no more divine than the Son. If I implied that they are equal in terms of their relationship to one another, I'm sorry. I didn't mean to. We Latter-day Saints acknowledge the Father as the "Almighty God," the supreme one among the three. In other words, the Son prays to the Father, never the other way around. The Son acknowledged the Father as His God, never the other way around. And so on and so forth.

 

[Pegg]

ok, why in your opinion , we shall consider this as sacrifice from God?

how did God sacrifice? God had let a weak innocent human to die and feel pain, how can we understand that God has sacrificed?

please explain...

I know that muslims do not consider Jesus anything more then simply a man like other men, but the fact is that jesus was more then any other man. He had a prehuman existence. He lived as a powerful angel in heaven before he became a man. That is why Jesus said that he had come from heaven.
It is also why Jesus is called the 'firstborn of all creation'
Jesus was the very first of Gods creations and he spent eons of time with God as a powerful spirit. The book of proverbs speaks of his life with God in heaven and its because of how well he knew that Father that he could perfectly reflect his fathers qualities, thus be the 'image' of God.

Proverbs 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth....27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; ...30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

The Apostles of Christ came to understand his relationship to God and wrote about it
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,


Im sure you know the account about Abraham when he was asked by God to make a sacrifice of his only son Isaac. That account was given to us to help us understand the great sacrifice that God made for mankind. Can you imagine if you had an only son and you had to sacrifice him to save others how difficult that would be?
Genesis 22:22 Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. Accordingly he said to him: “Abraham!” to which he said: “Here I am!” 2 And he went on to say: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo‧ri′ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.

God could have sent any of his other faithful angels to do the job of redeeming mankind, but instead he chose the one who was most precious to him...the one who he was 'especially fond of' his firstborn son.
John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

This is why it was such a huge sacrifice for God to make. He had to allow his most beloved son to be tested and abused by imperfect humans. He had to sit back and watch as his son was being tortured by his enemies. He had to listen as Jesus cried out to his father in pain and say nothing because the role that Jesus had volunteered to do was to sacrifice himself to the death.

We can undestand then why the sky turned dark when jesus was impaled and ridiculed and taunted by his religious enemies.

Luke 23:44 Well, by now it was about the sixth hour, and yet a darkness fell over all the earth until the ninth hour, 45 because the sunlight failed; then the curtain of the sanctuary was rent down the middle.46 And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” When he had said this, he expired. 47 Because of seeing what occurred the army officer began to glorify God, saying: “Really this man was righteous.” 48 And all the crowds that were gathered together there for this spectacle, when they beheld the things that occurred, began to return, beating their breasts

 

[Starsoul]

Why?

.

Because being God or a son of God would mean,that God would only give birth to a God, according to the laws of nature, if i simplify, here's how i see it.

> Man give births to a man
> frog gives birth to a frog
> Elephant gives birth to an elephant

Now a Man is ONLY capable of Giving birth to another man, and man's tongue cannot stretch out as far as the frog's nor can his nose drop down to pick peanuts like the elephant's, in order add to man's functions or impart super powers to his already defined limited set of powers.

Religions, specifically Islam only believes in gaining power through spirituality which is only achievable by the acceptance of One God and the practice of good deeds (sounds sensible enough i guess).

If God wanted to create his son and assign him special powers, and this was the only ONE person who got to be the son of God, isn't it a lot ungodly of that person to die of injustice when infact God prevails justice and is all powerful? Doesn't All this just hints more at Jesus being the Man, with limited powers like all humans beings, but yes better, Virtuous and inspirational is another thing.

Why then all humanity can not be the son of God as well? And why would the son of God look like man? If he was God he should've stood apart as God or His son, differently than the sinning humans, to at least just REGISTER that difference to humans visually, if nothing else.

And regarding another person's post,which said' we all are the sons of god' then how come we have no divine powers and immortality? cuz in order to be from God you have to have the attributes of God to be identified as one. Thats the absolute rule of Nature as we see.

Religions however explain that if the first man Adam can be created by God without a parent, then its No big deal for God to create a man with a single parent only, i.e Mary (Maryam AS) giving birth to Jesus.

WHy does christianity Not call Adam the son of God ?Prejuidice or something else?

In other words, doesn't Darwinism seem to support Christianity more than anything else cuz if Jesus is believed to be the Son of God, its only this unproved theory of evolution which can support one entirely different form of species to be theoretically coming from another different species without any intermediary forms ever being identified or evolution ever being experienced, IMO though its as much a faith based theory as much as religion is accused of.

If Darwin is indeed correct, what were the intermediary forms of God and man ? Can his theory really explain the origin of species? and why are christians against this theory when it could actually support them ?

 

[mohammed_beiruti]

I know that muslims do not consider Jesus anything more then simply a man like other men, but the fact is that jesus was more then any other man. He had a prehuman existence. He lived as a powerful angel in heaven before he became a man. That is why Jesus said that he had come from heaven.
It is also why Jesus is called the 'firstborn of all creation'
Jesus was the very first of Gods creations and he spent eons of time with God as a powerful spirit. The book of proverbs speaks of his life with God in heaven and its because of how well he knew that Father that he could perfectly reflect his fathers qualities, thus be the 'image' of God.

Proverbs 8:22 “Jehovah himself produced me as the beginning of his way, the earliest of his achievements of long ago. 23 From time indefinite I was installed, from the start, from times earlier than the earth....27 When he prepared the heavens I was there; ...30 then I came to be beside him as a master worker, and I came to be the one he was specially fond of day by day, I being glad before him all the time, 31 being glad at the productive land of his earth, and the things I was fond of were with the sons of men."

The Apostles of Christ came to understand his relationship to God and wrote about it
Colossians 1:15 He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation; 16 because by means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon the earth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they are thrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things have been created through him and for him. 17 Also, he is before all [other] things and by means of him all [other] things were made to exist,


Im sure you know the account about Abraham when he was asked by God to make a sacrifice of his only son Isaac. That account was given to us to help us understand the great sacrifice that God made for mankind. Can you imagine if you had an only son and you had to sacrifice him to save others how difficult that would be?
Genesis 22:22 Now after these things it came about that the [true] God put Abraham to the test. Accordingly he said to him: “Abraham!” to which he said: “Here I am!” 2 And he went on to say: “Take, please, your son, your only son whom you so love, Isaac, and make a trip to the land of Mo‧ri′ah and there offer him up as a burnt offering on one of the mountains that I shall designate to you.

God could have sent any of his other faithful angels to do the job of redeeming mankind, but instead he chose the one who was most precious to him...the one who he was 'especially fond of' his firstborn son.
John 3:16 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life

This is why it was such a huge sacrifice for God to make. He had to allow his most beloved son to be tested and abused by imperfect humans. He had to sit back and watch as his son was being tortured by his enemies. He had to listen as Jesus cried out to his father in pain and say nothing because the role that Jesus had volunteered to do was to sacrifice himself to the death.

We can undestand then why the sky turned dark when jesus was impaled and ridiculed and taunted by his religious enemies.

Luke 23:44 Well, by now it was about the sixth hour, and yet a darkness fell over all the earth until the ninth hour, 45 because the sunlight failed; then the curtain of the sanctuary was rent down the middle.46 And Jesus called with a loud voice and said: “Father, into your hands I entrust my spirit.” When he had said this, he expired. 47 Because of seeing what occurred the army officer began to glorify God, saying: “Really this man was righteous.” 48 And all the crowds that were gathered together there for this spectacle, when they beheld the things that occurred, began to return, beating their breasts

do you consider angels to be a "spiritual" being?

does spirit die ?

If not, God know well that his "angel" wouldn't die, it is a matter of human body disposal!

does God feel pain for losing something!

God the almighty does not feel pain, neither does feel regret; because he does not make mistakes.

He had to listen as Jesus cried out to his father in pain and say nothing because the role that Jesus had volunteered to do was to sacrifice himself to the death

did he realy know his role?

then why did he cried saying "why hast thou forsaken me"?

Mat 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?