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If Muhammad wasn't an actual prophet, then where did the Qur'an come from?

Storm

ThrUU the Looking Glass
I believe he's beyond comprehension too, but I don't believe that we can actually ever "see" God.
I think we can. I don't think we understand, but we can occasionally "pull back the veil."

But your statement confuses me. If we can't "see" God, then how can we have Prophets in the first place?

The difference is that theophanies must come from God though. He can't have chosen to have those visions or revelations placed upon him but they did anyway because of God's choice.
I think we're saying the same thing in different theological terminology. :)

IOW, if I were a theist, I'd agree with you. As a panentheist, I think you've got the mechanics wrong, but that's not terribly important.

The preconceptions of God at that time were very diverse; you had the Christian God who was and still is essentially thought to be Jesus; you had pre-Islamic Arabs and tribes who worshipped the moon and different idols. Muhammad's (PBUH) idea of God was very different than what was prevalent at the time. That's why so many people turned against him and waged war on him when he reported his first revelation and sighting of an angel (Gabriel).
And all of those ideas informed his interpretation. :)

Sure are. ;)
OK. We agree that Muhammad experienced theophany. That's my answer to your question.

Let the debate ensue! :angel2:
 

madnessinmysoul

New Member
This is my first actual post on this forum, so pardon me for being very...straightforward.

We all know that Muhammad (PBUH) was an unlettered man. If he wasn't actually a prophet, then where did the Qur'an come from?

Well, unlettered doesn't mean linguistically vacant. Muhammad knew a language and dictated the Qur'an, which is pretty easy to come up with when you spend all of two seconds thinking about it.

It's not even that great of a book, so it's not that crazy to think that some guy in the desert came up with it over the course of part of his life.



It would be better if you have actually read the Qur'an in Arabic beforehand as it cannot be fully appreciated any other way.

Eh...I'm not learning a third language that may not have even been the original language the Qur'an was written until I see some reason to bother.

As for your later points on the eloquence of the Arabic version of the text...so? There is a distinct lack of texts written in Arabic when compared to many, many other languages. Few books are even translated into Arabic. Even so, poetic or other aesthetic achievement does nothing to support divine inspiration. Plato in the original Greek is supposed to be one of the most sublime things ever written, but it doesn't stop Plato from being wrong on so many points.
 

Archer

Well-Known Member
This is my first actual post on this forum, so pardon me for being very...straightforward.



Well, unlettered doesn't mean linguistically vacant. Muhammad knew a language and dictated the Qur'an, which is pretty easy to come up with when you spend all of two seconds thinking about it.

It's not even that great of a book, so it's not that crazy to think that some guy in the desert came up with it over the course of part of his life.





Eh...I'm not learning a third language that may not have even been the original language the Qur'an was written until I see some reason to bother.

As for your later points on the eloquence of the Arabic version of the text...so? There is a distinct lack of texts written in Arabic when compared to many, many other languages. Few books are even translated into Arabic. Even so, poetic or other aesthetic achievement does nothing to support divine inspiration. Plato in the original Greek is supposed to be one of the most sublime things ever written, but it doesn't stop Plato from being wrong on so many points.

The OP has not had an adversarial stance so why be insulting about it? You could have said everything you did without the insulting demeanor.

Negative frubals.
 

beenie

Veteran Member
Staff member
Premium Member
This is my first actual post on this forum, so pardon me for being very...straightforward.

Well, unlettered doesn't mean linguistically vacant. Muhammad knew a language and dictated the Qur'an, which is pretty easy to come up with when you spend all of two seconds thinking about it.

It's not even that great of a book, so it's not that crazy to think that some guy in the desert came up with it over the course of part of his life.

Eh...I'm not learning a third language that may not have even been the original language the Qur'an was written until I see some reason to bother.

As for your later points on the eloquence of the Arabic version of the text...so? There is a distinct lack of texts written in Arabic when compared to many, many other languages. Few books are even translated into Arabic. Even so, poetic or other aesthetic achievement does nothing to support divine inspiration. Plato in the original Greek is supposed to be one of the most sublime things ever written, but it doesn't stop Plato from being wrong on so many points.

What, exactly, is your point? What you've posted is completely irrelevant.
 

Father Heathen

Veteran Member
We all know that Muhammad (PBUH) was an unlettered man. If he wasn't actually a prophet, then where did the Qur'an come from?
It would be better if you have actually read the Qur'an in Arabic beforehand as it cannot be fully appreciated any other way.

If Joseph Smith wasn't a prophet, where did the book or Mormon come from?

If L. Ron Hubbard wasn't a prophet, where did Dianetics come from?
 

no-body

Well-Known Member
Didn't Muhammed grow up around and was a merchant for most of his life? Coupled with his fascination for the mystical/spiritual in his free time it's not hard to see how a very socially charming personality could come up with what he did, unlettered or not.

The "but they are just an uncultured peasant!" thing is used a lot in cases where people say they are supposed psychics and mediums. 100% they are always found out to be frauds by the way and use the fact that people think they are dumb to con "smarter" people. Not that I am comparing these cases to Muhammed necessarily but it's what immediately comes to mind.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
We all know that Muhammad (PBUH) was an unlettered man. If he wasn't actually a prophet, then where did the Qur'an come from?
It would be better if you have actually read the Qur'an in Arabic beforehand as it cannot be fully appreciated any other way.
The Qur'an came from the Arab culture of the 7th century, it discusses the turmoil and affairs of Arab culture before the arrival of the Qur'an and under the notorious pre Islamic Arabic culture.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
We all know that Muhammad was an unlettered man. If he wasn't actually a prophet, then where did the Qur'an come from?
As others have pointed out "unlettered" does not equal linguistically challenged. One also has to bear in mind that the Qur'an "came down" in fits and starts over a 23 year period, so it's not like this very clever man did not have a long time to get his story straight and perfect his oration style. Heck, the current version isn't in the same order as it was originally transmitted. (It is ordered from the longest to the shortest verses.) If you read the Qur'an in its transmission order it loses a lot of its poetic appeal and is more akin to rambling. (Try it, you'll see what I mean.)

Unlike others on RF, I simply do not consider Muhammad to be a prophet or a mystic of any particular note. I will grant that he was a natural politician and military genius. The man certainly learned how to "work" a crowd. :)

It would be better if you have actually read the Qur'an in Arabic beforehand as it cannot be fully appreciated any other way.
In my opinion, this is perhaps the most negative aspect to the myth of the Qur'an's divine origin. One idea is that because of the revered status of the Qur'an, that exalted perspective could possibly stop far better writers from writing their tales in Arabic, because if they were able to outdo the Qur'an in eloquence and beauty they would be guilty of the greatest treason. That probably wouldn't go down to well with the true believers. In this regard, the literary supremacy of the Qur'an is its own self fulfilling myth, as no Arabic writer in their right mind would even try to do it one better. This is a great way to hobble subsequent creativity.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I believe he was a genius-level mystic. The kind of natural ability that Mozart had.

The Qur'an was his interpretation of his theophanies.

Thanks. I was thinking how I would word that. I agree.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that he was literally right in my opinion.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Thanks. I was thinking how I would word that. I agree.

Mind you, that doesn't mean that he was literally right in my opinion.
I am not sure why you imply that another man is a genius.
This was an Arab man who was involved in the politics and society of Arabia.
the qur'an is a text of a major religion. the history books tell us of a man who was heavily involved in the treaties between the state of Medina and the Meccan tribe.
 

Matthew78

aspiring biblical scholar
Again, the way the Qur'an is written and composed cannot possibly come from a regular human, much less an unlettered one. Even if he was a genius-level mystic, how could he convey his visions and theophanies in words?

I'm curious as to how you determined this. How did you determine which style type can be produced by mere humans and which have to be divine in origin? What do you mean by "unlettered"? Based on the replies that I have read so far, I'm asuming that you mean that he was illiterate. But I think the other replies that I have read answer your question the exact way I would if this was a conversation between us two. I don't know that Mohammed was illiterate. Even so, I don't think that he was linguistically impaired. He may have been illiterate but my impression was that he was something of a polymath and a gifted speaker.

I have read of this argument before and I get the impression that Muslims who use this argument are very much bothered that people are not Muslims like them. The way this argument gets used gives me the impression that Muslims who are fond of this argument and use it as a weapon against unbelievers tend to think that unbelievers owe them an explanation and if an unbeliever has none, well, then that unbeliever has a moral obligation to convert.

I want to make something clear: I will never convert to any of the Abrahamic religions or "faiths". I don't owe anyone an explanation. If someone is disappointed with my reponse, well, tough.
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
I am not sure why you imply that another man is a genius.
This was an Arab man who was involved in the politics and society of Arabia.
the qur'an is a text of a major religion. the history books tell us of a man who was heavily involved in the treaties between the state of Medina and the Meccan tribe.

From all available evidence, he must have been very remarkable at least by the standards of his own culture (although I must say that YmirGF has a very good point about the self-fulfilling prophecy of his stature).

Not sure why your statements put that in doubt, myself. I see no contradiction. Was his political activity relevant evidence that he was not a genius?
 
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LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
But is that really saying much?

Actually, no, it is not.

Islam, like most succesfull religions, is (almost by definition) far greater than their own origins and scripture, because they are improved by the good will and works of their best adherents.

I find Abrahamic faiths rather exotic due to their strong tendency to define themselves by their prophets and scriptures. It is just so unnatural to me.
 

Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
From all available evidence, he must have been very remarkable at least by the standards of his own culture (although I must say that YmirGF has a very good point about the self-fulfilling prophecy of his stature).

Not sure why your statements put that in doubt, myself. I see no contradiction. Was his political activity relevant evidence that he was not a genius?
You seem to be talking about a genius of 'mystical' proportions.
would you consider Napoleon as such? or other figures of contermporary society?
at the end of the day most of these man are and were ordinary men who faced the ordinary social challenges of their times and life.
for some reason, when we discuss these men who are part of the history books which go beyond the last couple of centuries and into what you might consider the vague past, you give them an enigmatic aura.
I find it much more constructive to learn of the history of their regional locations, and of their culture, as these men were part of it. the fact that their personal campaign was successful is what gives you and other men the need to treat them as mystically gifted. while, if we look at their harsh reality on the ground, these men faced the dirt of social affairs, political affairs, ending blood feuds between tribes, and the exhausting task of forging treaties in order to stabilize the administration of two important cities, Mecca and Medina. it is not an enigmatic period wich is painted by mystical colors. it is the history of western Saudi Arabia during the 7th century.
 
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Caladan

Agnostic Pantheist
Actually, no, it is not.

Islam, like most succesfull religions, is (almost by definition) far greater than their own origins and scripture, because they are improved by the good will and works of their best adherents.

I find Abrahamic faiths rather exotic due to their strong tendency to define themselves by their prophets and scriptures. It is just so unnatural to me.
I think you are completely misunderstanding what you refer to as Abrahamic religions.
these are ordinary social segements of the public and these are ordinary countries in what we consider historical regions. the people of these societies follow ordinary routine. they have ordinary careers, and ordinary families, they most commonly also have an ordinary secular daily habits of routine.
the prophets of these cultures deal with the contemporary internationl relations of their day, whether if its the Iron Age society of the Levant, or Saudi Arabia during the 7th century. their scriptures deal with these dilemmas and with political questions extensively. the mystical portion, is a tiny dose of dry herbs added to the social discussion of Israelite society, or Arabian society.
 
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England my lionheart

Rockerjahili Rebel
Premium Member
We all know that Muhammad (PBUH) was an unlettered man. If he wasn't actually a prophet, then where did the Qur'an come from?

Iliterate doesn't mean he was an idiot,we know that poetry was a part of Arab life in that period and much was transmitted orally so its no great shakes that the Qur'an is poetic so IMO the Qur'an like any other scripture was authored by a Human being.

It would be better if you have actually read the Qur'an in Arabic beforehand as it cannot be fully appreciated any other way.

IMO it was a religion created for the Arabs,i don't think it was meant to be universal,i have read the Qur'an in English,i can only think that the beauty i hear talked about comes from the Arabic speech because it is hard work to read IMO.
 
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YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
if we look at their harsh reality on the ground, these men faced the dirt of social affairs, political affairs, ending blood feuds between tribes, and the exhausting task of forging treaties in order to stabilize the administration of two important cities, Mecca and Medina. it is not an enigmatic period wich is painted by mystical colors. it is the history of western Saudi Arabia during the 7th century.
That is certainly the way I see him. A natural diplomat, leader and general. On the mystical side, I'd rate him as an rank amateur. :)
 
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