IF NO WORDS, WOULD HUMANS SIN?

[Repox]

One argument for freewill is without it we have no opportunity to demonstrate perfection. Without symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species; humans would be similar to apes or gorillas in the jungle. Do other species have freewill? No, unless theologians have changed their minds, they rely on instincts. Language usage enables humans to make choices, and, therefore, to sin.

 

[dust1n]

One argument for freewill is without it we have no opportunity to demonstrate perfection.

Humans can demonstrate perfection?

Without symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species; humans would be similar to apes or gorillas in the jungle.

I'd guess that's probably true. Symbolic language is probably a big stepping stone in the whole cognitive thinking game; although we still share some traits.

Do other species have freewill?

Well... ignoring the "free" part, I'm sure they have some degree of awareness, albeit not close to ours.

No, unless theologians have changed their minds, they rely on instincts. Language usage enables humans to make choices, and, therefore, to sin.

If there was no words, then how could two people get married? Everyone would be an unwed parent.

I mean... animals exhibit behaviors that would for all intents and purposes be considered a sin if humans were doing them. They are just, presumably not willing them in the same way you or I will things... well sometimes it is. I'm not sure it's also clear that having words is a necessary prediction for someone to make a choice.

I mean, if throw a ball for a dog... is it exercising some sort of choice to pursue the ball or not?

 

[RESOLUTION]

One argument for freewill is without it we have no opportunity to demonstrate perfection. Without symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species; humans would be similar to apes or gorillas in the jungle. Do other species have freewill? No, unless theologians have changed their minds, they rely on instincts. Language usage enables humans to make choices, and, therefore, to sin.

Were humans created/born with the power of speech?

Could a race simply come into existence from babies?

Were they born able to think and speak and so communicate?
How did they survive without clothes and someone to feed them?

Lions three of them chasing a herd of Buffalo. Hunting looking for the weak link, After a while the buffaloes chase at them.
The Lions retreat and then give up. Did the lions communicate or agree? Did they decide as a team and communicate or did they literally all understand the same thing at the same time?

Animals like humans can adapt to their conditions. But do animals understand their own mortality as humans do?
Do they ever progress from their way of life over the centuries as humans have done?


I would say with or without communication abilities the human being is very different from other species/animals.

 

[Stevicus]

One argument for freewill is without it we have no opportunity to demonstrate perfection. Without symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species; humans would be similar to apes or gorillas in the jungle. Do other species have freewill? No, unless theologians have changed their minds, they rely on instincts. Language usage enables humans to make choices, and, therefore, to sin.

Without language, there's no list of rules or commandments, and therefore no way for humans to know what is a sin and what isn't.

 

[Quintessence]

Which theologians are you talking about that presume our non-human relations rely "only" on instincts and humans somehow do not?

 

[Repox]

Were humans created/born with the power of speech?

Could a race simply come into existence from babies?

Were they born able to think and speak and so communicate?
How did they survive without clothes and someone to feed them?

Lions three of them chasing a herd of Buffalo. Hunting looking for the weak link, After a while the buffaloes chase at them.
The Lions retreat and then give up. Did the lions communicate or agree? Did they decide as a team and communicate or did they literally all understand the same thing at the same time?

Animals like humans can adapt to their conditions. But do animals understand their own mortality as humans do?
Do they ever progress from their way of life over the centuries as humans have done?


I would say with or without communication abilities the human being is very different from other species/animals.

Yes, I agree, it seems to be related to how humans have evolved. If you trace the evolutionary process for Homo Sapiens you find a gradual symbolic progression. Fist words to communicate meaning for basic hunting and gathering functions, then words to communicate emotion, and finally ability to communicate with written words. The key for differentiated species is when humans were able to separate themselves from nature and form into tribes or societies, and finally civilized communities. In the world today, there are human groups at various levels of social development reflecting the diversity of symbolic communication abilities. Based on historical and archeological records, the progression of symbolic communication abilities is the key for understand human diversity and advances. It did just happen, it evolved. Then, if you study morality, you find it has evolved with the progression of civilization. If you study social groups, you'll find them developing normative structures whereby values and norms become ruling functions for the society or group. Thus, we have normal and deviate groups and subgroups. Later, as social groups evolved, leaders established organizations to enforce and administer laws to maintain stability and to sanction or punished those who commit deviant acts.

Due to symbolic communication abilities, humans have become the dominate species on the planet. As for morality, it also evolved with societies. Is morality God given or is it a product of evolution?

 

[Repox]

One reason why I started this thread is to explore the human condition in relationship to paradise. I had a dream and a vision about paradise happening during the dinosaur era. Back then, there were no humans, just creatures without symbolic communication abilities. Well, what was it like without talking creatures and "civilized" groups? I imagine creatures communicated, each in their own way, their love and admiration for God. At the time, God was in paradise enjoying His creatures. I had a vision about paradise. I was in a cave with a display of dinosaur bones on a wall in a cave in Utah. Suddenly, in my mind, I saw the whole planet aglow with God's holy light. Evidently, the whole planet was paradise. As evidence, dinosaur bones have been found underground on every continent on earth.

Therefore, symbolic communication abilities are not necessary to have a relationship with God. Those abilities may even be a handicap in a relationship with God. Human ability to think allows cognitive skills for having an adversary relationship with God.

If earthly paradise had been similar to heaven, all creatures would have been in a state of blissful grace, they would be immortal. God had allowed his creatures to evolve into an ideal state. Then, God would have frozen time to create paradise on earth. In essence, earth would have become heaven inasmuch as heaven equals the eternal presence of God and His angels. God, accompanied by His angels, would have interacted with earthly creatures. God would be in the air above creatures on earth; they would be below making joyful sounds in the presence of God. If Satan had not come from the universe to disrupt paradise, heaven would have continued on earth. Again, without God, there is no paradise or heaven.

 

[RESOLUTION]

Yes, I agree, it seems to be related to how humans have evolved. If you trace the evolutionary process for Homo Sapiens you find a gradual symbolic progression. Fist words to communicate meaning for basic hunting and gathering functions, then words to communicate emotion, and finally ability to communicate with written words. The key for differentiated species is when humans were able to separate themselves from nature and form into tribes or societies, and finally civilized communities. In the world today, there are human groups at various levels of social development reflecting the diversity of symbolic communication abilities. Based on historical and archeological records, the progression of symbolic communication abilities is the key for understand human diversity and advances. It did just happen, it evolved. Then, if you study morality, you find it has evolved with the progression of civilization. If you study social groups, you'll find them developing normative structures whereby values and norms become ruling functions for the society or group. Thus, we have normal and deviate groups and subgroups. Later, as social groups evolved, leaders established organizations to enforce and administer laws to maintain stability and to sanction or punished those who commit deviant acts.

Due to symbolic communication abilities, humans have become the dominate species on the planet. As for morality, it also evolved with societies. Is morality God given or is it a product of evolution?

Humans have never evolved and are not evolving now.
Do you realise what it would take, even with the evolution belief of the age of the earth.
The earth even by their reckoning it too young for man to have evolved according to evolutionist.

 

[Repox]

Humans have never evolved and are not evolving now.
Do you realise what it would take, even with the evolution belief of the age of the earth.
The earth even by their reckoning it too young for man to have evolved according to evolutionist.

If humans haven't evolved, where did they come from? Science has traced back humans to primitive societies, as I described. We have historical and archeological record for early humans. Scientific evidences has found humans evolved from primitive life for

Humans have never evolved and are not evolving now.
Do you realise what it would take, even with the evolution belief of the age of the earth.
The earth even by their reckoning it too young for man to have evolved according to evolutionist.

There is scientific evidence for the evolution of humans.

Human evolution - Wikipedia

 

[RESOLUTION]

If humans haven't evolved, where did they come from? Science has traced back humans to primitive societies, as I described.



We have historical and archeological record for early humans. Scientific evidences has found humans evolved from primitive life forms.

There is scientific evidence for the evolution of humans.

Human evolution - Wikipedia

Wikipedia...are you being serious? Forget all you think you know above. The fact is the EARTH is not old enough according to evolution for man to have progressed to where he is today through the means of science.

You read books but theories are called theories

If humans haven't evolved, where did they come from? Science has traced back humans to primitive societies, as I described. We have historical and archeological record for early humans. Scientific evidences has found humans evolved from primitive life for

There is scientific evidence for the evolution of humans.

Human evolution - Wikipedia

There isn't and never has been. Hence the reason the scientist now claim that man is not evolving. Why do you think that is? We can see nothing changed in the last 2,000 years.
You see what was once assumed is not longer viable. Man can see from his own history we are not evolving.

 

[Repox]

Wikipedia...are you being serious? Forget all you think you know above. The fact is the EARTH is not old enough according to evolution for man to have progressed to where he is today through the means of science.

You read books but theories are called theories


There isn't and never has been. Hence the reason the scientist now claim that man is not evolving. Why do you think that is? We can see nothing changed in the last 2,000 years.
You see what was once assumed is not longer viable. Man can see from his own history we are not evolving.

There is evidence (facts) for human evolution. If you ignore science and history what do you have? Myths and other fantasy beliefs. If you don't like Wikipedia go to your nearest library and look for a book on human evolution. The earth is about 4.5 billion years old, dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago. During the dinosaur era homo sapiens, or humans, didn't exist, they evolved from that period.

Here is another reference for human evolution.

human evolution

 

[RESOLUTION]

You need to study. It requires more faith to believe in Evolution than it does Christianity.

There is evidence (facts) for human evolution

Since man has been able to check his own facts there is absolutely nothing to support that man has evolved he has always been what he has always been. We may have found that eating better helps you live longer and helps fight disease but in all we are not evolving and never have. Of course you could show evidence... by that I mean evidence the eye can see and not theories presented by scientist based on the other elements.

 

[Pudding]

One argument for freewill is without it we have no opportunity to demonstrate perfection. Without symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species; humans would be similar to apes or gorillas in the jungle. Do other species have freewill? No, unless theologians have changed their minds, they rely on instincts. Language usage enables humans to make choices, and, therefore, to sin.

How do we know non-human animals don't talk to their own kind with the language only they themselves understand, and is not understandable by humans?

 

[Repox]

How do we know non-human animals don't talk to their own kind with the language only they themselves understand, and is not understandable by humans?

It is well known by animal behaviorist that species communicate within groups, but they don't have what has been called symbolic communication abilities. Usage of words and symbols is found primarily with humans.

 

[arthra]

One argument for freewill is without it we have no opportunity to demonstrate perfection. Without symbolic communication abilities, humans are not much different from other species; humans would be similar to apes or gorillas in the jungle. Do other species have freewill? No, unless theologians have changed their minds, they rely on instincts. Language usage enables humans to make choices, and, therefore, to sin.

I think there may be something to the first verse of the Gospel of John... "In the beginning was the Word..."... For human beings. The Word is like a creative generating force that shapes things...and the Greek word "Logos" is significant here... "..the Word of God, or principle of divine reason and creative order..." and further "Greek word meaning "ground", "plea", "opinion", "expectation", "word", "speech", "account", "reason", "proportion", "discourse". The philosophical use of the Word (Logos) goes back to the sixth century BCE

Human beings also have the innate right to turn away from that Word.

 

[Pudding]

It is well known by animal behaviorist that species communicate within groups, but they don't have what has been called symbolic communication abilities. Usage of words and symbols is found primarily with humans.

What is symbolic communication abilities?

Could the voice of non-human animal be their language to communicate between themselves?
I cannot understand what they're talking about, like how i cannot understand many other human languages?

 

[Pudding]

Do other species have freewill? No, unless theologians have changed their minds, they rely on instincts.

Theologians say animal rely on instincts?
Animal have no freewill, because they rely on instincts?

Language usage enables humans to make choices, and, therefore, to sin.

Please define sin.

 

[Repox]

What is symbolic communication abilities?

Could the voice of non-human animal be their language to communicate between themselves?
I cannot understand what they're talking about, like how i cannot understand many other human languages?

Humans don't regard animals as having free will. I am proposing it is because they don't have sym. com. abilities. Otherwise, why not use moral standards to evaluate animal behavior? It all relates to how species communicate. If they can't talk or use symbols, they have no free will. Isn't that the implication for the difference?

If, as a human, I loose my ability to use symbols (idiot or worse), do I loose my freewill?

 

[Repox]

A

Theologians say animal rely on instincts?
Animal have no freewill, because they rely on instincts?


Please define sin.

A creature can disobey God by willfully opposing God's commandments, or God's will. Symbolic interaction abilities are not required. If you exclude creatures without symbolic communication abilities there would be no animals in paradise. Actually, God preferred animals in paradise to humans in civilized societies. Paradise happened before humans evolved.

I had a dream about dinosaurs. In this dream, I was shoveling garbage in a deep, filthy pit. As I shoveled, I looked around and could see dinosaur bones underground throughout the world. A voice said, "Humans have defiled my sacred grave." My interpretation is God is not pleased with humans polluting and disturbing earth. Apparently, God wanted nature to remain unmolested. That is, of course, contrary to Christian ideology about God creating the world for humans, and creating other species for humans' pleasure. Sacred grave refers to the fall of paradise which happened 65 million years ago. Since then creatures have evolved. I know, there is the Adam and Eve story. It is a myth.

 

[Pudding]

Humans don't regard animals as having free will. I am proposing it is because they don't have sym. com. abilities. Otherwise, why not use moral standards to evaluate animal behavior? It all relates to how species communicate. If they can't talk or use symbols, they have no free will. Isn't that the implication for the difference?

If, as a human, I loose my ability to use symbols (idiot or worse), do I loose my freewill?

I have to do some research about symbolic communication abilities before i can get back to you.

If it's okay, i would also like to know how do you define free will.

A

A creature can disobey God by willfully opposing God's commandments, or God's will. Symbolic interaction abilities are not required. If you exclude creatures without symbolic communication abilities there would be no animals in paradise. Actually, God preferred animals in paradise to humans in civilized societies. Paradise happened before humans evolved.

I had a dream about dinosaurs. In this dream, I was shoveling garbage in a deep, filthy pit. As I shoveled, I looked around and could see dinosaur bones underground throughout the world. A voice said, "Humans have defiled my sacred grave." My interpretation is God is not pleased with humans polluting and disturbing earth. Apparently, God wanted nature to remain unmolested. That is, of course, contrary to Christian ideology about God creating the world for humans, and creating other species for humans' pleasure. Sacred grave refers to the fall of paradise which happened 65 million years ago. Since then creatures have evolved. I know, there is the Adam and Eve story. It is a myth.

I'm not sure how to respond to your post, i have to think about it.