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If Not Science...

Ella S.

Well-Known Member
Ok, how would you determine the facts used in logic?

I would say logic without science has no necessary basis in reality.

Sure you can use logic to determine the "truth" in whatever fantasy world you create but, is it really truth?

Yes. Truth is relative to the premises. Mathematical truths are true in reference to the axioms of math.

Reality is unknowable. All we have are our subjective experiences. If we could know reality itself, then we wouldn't need science or logic, because we would already be omniscient.

We can judge what is true relative to empirical evidence, but that doesn't mean that this truth we discover is an accurate reflection of reality. Our understanding of what is true and what is false is constantly changing in light of new information. "Truth" is a formal abstraction that we use to rationally analyze premises; it is not a fixed ontological status.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Do you think sociology is a science? How about psychoanalysis?

Before you answer, consider that Karl Popper's principle of falsification was in response to what he considered the erroneous labelling of these disciplines as sciences..
They are limited attempts at science. Though I suspect it is through science we will eventually have answers. We need much more research and testing of theories before that.

So, not the best answers but they may have a better than average chance of being workable in the mean time.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
Yes. Truth is relative to the premises. Mathematical truths are true in reference to the axioms of math.

Reality is unknowable. All we have are our subjective experiences. If we could know reality itself, then we wouldn't need science or logic, because we would already be omniscient.

We can judge what is true relative to empirical evidence, but that doesn't mean that this truth we discover is an accurate reflection of reality. Our understanding of what is true and what is false is constantly changing in light of new information. "Truth" is a formal abstraction that we use to rationally analyze premises; it is not a fixed ontological status.
Sure, science is not perfect. However with our limited knowledge/understanding, it is imo the best way to keep the error count down.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
What is the question? If it's about the objective world, then science. If it's about the meaning and purpose of life, then it's the spiritual realm.
So what is the better method when it comes to determing the purpose of life or the answer to spiritual questions?
The most reliable method in your opinion?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
That rather depends on the question. If it's "Who was the greater musician, Franz Schubert or Miles Davis?" science won't be a lot of help there.
What is the correct answer to that question and how did you arrive at it?
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
I'd change the word from science to empiricism, and there is no other way to learn anything. Empiricism is the interpretation of evidence in an effort to make decisions that effect desired outcomes. This is what scientists do, but it's also what every creature able to sense his world, generalize on experience (induction), and make decisions accordingly (deduction) does, and can be called informal science. By this method, I can discover what foods give me pleasure (personal knowledge), and also where and how to get them (public knowledge). This is empiricism, whether done in an observatory or laboratory, or daily life. If a question can't be answered empirically, it can't be answered at all, answers being useful propositions as described above.



Sure it can, just not all of it. That's the chief value of empiricism - to predict outcomes. The value of knowledge is to inform decisions and drive actions. Those actions then influence events in the external world, and those effects lead to objective consequences that modify experience in predictable ways if we do it correctly. We should expect similar decisions made under similar circumstances to lead to similar outcomes. It is in this way that we predict the future continually.

In fact, it is this ability of an idea to be useful for predicting outcomes that justifies us calling it correct, truth, knowledge, or an answer. The ultimate measure of a true proposition is the capacity to inform decisions under the expectation of desirable consequences. And this describes both formal science and the empiricism of dld say the problem aily life, like looking both ways before crossing a street to effect the desired outcome of crossing safely.
I'd say the problem with empiricism is that it can and has led to false beliefs. Then we can use science to test/ verify those beliefs.

One could have a religious experience which leads to a belief of some kind. IMO, then it would be best to test it. To try and falsify the belief so its reliability would be higher.
 
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Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
If the question is finding a more eco-friendly fuel then science is the best method.

If the question is how to find internal peace, contentment and love then spirituality is the best method.
I'd say using spirituality to achieve inner peace is a bit hit and miss. Currently you have to listen to spiritual advice from someone else, hope they are not trying to scam you and hope it works for you as well.

Certainly there exists devices with can monitor your state of mind provide real-time feedback so one can more reliably enter the desired state of mind. Lots of studies on the desired brainwaves and how they can be achieved for example.
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
How would you define scientific process?
Testing your beliefs/truths by every means you can conceive of until you've exhausted your creative process.

Experimentation, attempts of falsification, open peer review. The more this is done the more reliable the hypothesis.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
As an example; 'medicine' as a human endeavor is not strictly speaking "science", even though it employs and depends on the scientific process heavily for it's methods and treatments. The same is true of psychology and sociology. Just because they sometimes rely on scientific methods and observations does not make them "science".
I don't find a semantic debate over the meaning of the word "science" to be productive.

For chemistry, we have the science of chemistry and chemical engineering, the application of chemistry. For medicine, psychology and sociology we have only one umbrella word covering both the science and the application aspects. There is valid scientific research being done in medicine, psychology and sociology.
 

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
I'd say using spirituality to achieve inner peace is a bit hit and miss. Currently you have to listen to spiritual advice from someone else, hope they are not trying to scam you and hope it works for you as well.
You learn the spiritual teachings that work for you and you can judge their success.
Att
Certainly there exists devices with can monitor your state of mind provide real-time feedback so one can more reliably enter the desired state of mind. Lots of studies on the desired brainwaves and how they can be achieved for example.
I'm not opposed to technology that works but I suspect it would train you in ways of thinking already taught by spirituality.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Do you like the color blue? The taste of pizza? Are you sleepy? Use the method of science to answer these.

Actually, science can very much tell us if a third person likes the color blue, likes pizza or is sleepy.


We can put said third person under specific observation and analyze his / her response to stimuli and alike.
 

sun rise

The world is on fire
Premium Member
So what is the better method when it comes to determing the purpose of life or the answer to spiritual questions?
The most reliable method in your opinion?

To answer spiritual questions, following a spiritual "path" has to be done. This is analogous to the methods of science You formulate some ideas and carry out spiritual experiments or using another word "practices". These are often labeled as various meditation techniques, forms of yoga (bhakti/karma) and so forth. But the practice can also be to approach all the events and challenges of daily life as a witness observing one's automatic tendencies and trying to make other choices (such as being more loving).

There are well known problems that people can run into. In zen, the word makyo is used to indicate issues. This is where the role of a teacher comes in for many. The teacher needs to be able to determine what is really going on.
 

SalixIncendium

अहं ब्रह्मास्मि
Staff member
Premium Member
Actually, science can very much tell us if a third person likes the color blue, likes pizza or is sleepy.


We can put said third person under specific observation and analyze his / her response to stimuli and alike.

I never said it even implied that it couldn’t. But that wasn’t the question, was it?

The question asked if there was a better way. Would you say the way you describe above is the optimal way to answer the question. Do you need to place yourself under observation or analysis by another to determine if you like blue, pizza, or are sleepy? Or can you pretty much come to these conclusions by assessing your own experiences with these?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Sure, science is not perfect. However with our limited knowledge/understanding, it is imo the best way to keep the error count down.
As long as it is applied to the proper areas. And those areas can be pretty large, but it is still easy to find exceptions. Feelings of love may be able to be explained by science, but I still will not use it to determine if I love someone or if someone loves me.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
I never said it even implied that it couldn’t. But that wasn’t the question, was it?

The question asked if there was a better way. Would you say the way you describe above is the optimal way to answer the question. Do you need to place yourself under observation or analysis by another to determine if you like blue, pizza, or are sleepy? Or can you pretty much come to these conclusions by experiencing these?
I hate blue pizza. I found one that had been in the back of the refrigerator for a couple of months. You DO NOT want to know the details. Green pizza may be borderline, but blue pizza, forget it!!
 

Nakosis

Non-Binary Physicalist
Premium Member
As long as it is applied to the proper areas. And those areas can be pretty large, but it is still easy to find exceptions. Feelings of love may be able to be explained by science, but I still will not use it to determine if I love someone or if someone loves me.
Is that a question that you would need answered for you?

I'd think not. So sure, science can't answer questions for which you already know the answer for.
 

cladking

Well-Known Member
S

Science never claimed to answer questions outside its purview: purpose, value, morality, &c.

Of course it does.

Now day all you need is consensus to raise a computer model to scientific truth. In the soft sciences all you need is a schtick.

Statistics is a branch of mathematics. It is not science but this is what passes for science today.
 
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