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If Peter saw Miracles, why denied Jesus 3 times?

Betho_br

Active Member
24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

My comment: Here "Ship" has a figurative meaning. It means the Faith of God. It is the Ark. Whoever enters the Ark of God, is saved from corruption in the world.
so, the corruption forces were against the Ship of God, and the Wind was contrary, denotes that, people of the time were acting contrary and against the Faith of Christ, and fighting against it.


25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.



My comment: Here Jesus showed them, with Faith, they can remain above corruptions.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?


My comment: these passages denote that, peter did not have strong Faith, thus, when He saw the threats as well as all those worldly desires, He was not able to follow Jesus and be a faithful believer, thus He was scared when he saw threats from the opposition, and thus was about to get sink in the sea of corruption and sin. But, He asked Jesus to help him stay firm. Jesus told him, it is because his faith in God is weak....

I am not against this type of interpretation as long as it does not 'overrun' the reasonableness of the text. Origen is not the greatest Greek Apostolic Father, and did he not also do this?
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
24 But the ship was now in the midst of the sea, tossed with waves: for the wind was contrary.

My comment: Here "Ship" has a figurative meaning. It means the Faith of God. It is the Ark. Whoever enters the Ark of God, is saved from corruption in the world.
so, the corruption forces were against the Ship of God, and the Wind was contrary, denotes that, people of the time were acting contrary and against the Faith of Christ, and fighting against it.


25 And in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went unto them, walking on the sea.

26 And when the disciples saw him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, It is a spirit; and they cried out for fear.

27 But straightway Jesus spake unto them, saying, Be of good cheer; it is I; be not afraid.



My comment: Here Jesus showed them, with Faith, they can remain above corruptions.

28 And Peter answered him and said, Lord, if it be thou, bid me come unto thee on the water.

29 And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.

30 But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.

31 And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?


My comment: these passages denote that, peter did not have strong Faith, thus, when He saw the threats as well as all those worldly desires, He was not able to follow Jesus and be a faithful believer, thus He was scared when he saw threats from the opposition, and thus was about to get sink in the sea of corruption and sin. But, He asked Jesus to help him stay firm. Jesus told him, it is because his faith in God is weak....

I like your reading. And I probably agree with it for the most part.

What I would say in opposition to your parable is that the parabolic meaning can't dispense with the literal meaning. It can augment it. It can even be more important than the literal. But it can't displace it. . . . Jesus walked on water. If a theology can't swallow that it will drown . . . if you can forgive the mixed metaphor.



John
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Bible does not say those things happned physically. Many Christians have interpreted them as physical Miracles.
They can be parables in fact. The only ones that, Jesus privately explained all details without Parables were disciples.

Mark 4:33-34 is very interesting:

"With many similar parables Jesus spoke the word to them, as much as they could understand. He did not say anything to them without using a parable. But when he was alone with his own disciples, he explained everything."

The Bible does not give the details about what Jesus explained to the disciples when He was alone with them. But it only says, that happened.
Do you really have to twist logic to try to prove your point? The miracles that are described cannot be parables; they are statements of fact by the authors. There is a clear distinction in the Bible between parables -- a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, that illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles -- and the reporting of occurrences.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But this method of interpreting it literally unless style or context dictates otherwise, is a man-made idea. It is also subject to one's own judgment. Since human beings are fallible, their judgment can be faulty and take what is Parable, or Allegorical as literal.





Any of those Miracles can be very well understood as parables and metaphor.

For example Jesus cured they blind, can mean He opened His spiritual insight.
He resurrected the dead, can mean, He awakened the misguide people, and revived them spiritually.
His own Resurrection can very well mean, the Rise of Christianity after His crucifixion, as Bible says:

"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." 1 Corinthians 12:27

Now, for example, here is one of the reasons why Resurrection of Christ could not have been physical:


"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you" John 20:26

If Jesus had a physical body, He could not have come inside when the doors were locked. So, as you say, the context makes it known it couldn't be a physical event. It is a metaphorical story, that has a spiritual meaning. That does not make Jesus any less than who He was.
Remember the Father, does not have a physical body either.

"But this method of interpreting it literally unless style or context dictates otherwise, is a man-made idea. It is also subject to one's own judgment. Since human beings are fallible, their judgment can be faulty and take what is Parable, or Allegorical as literal." The underlined clearly applies to you. You are simply creating arguments to justify your predetermined opinion rather than looking at the evidence.

The miracles are not parables or metaphors, they are evidence of what actually happened. Your disbelief doesn't alter that fact.

When Jesus cured the blind, He cured the blind. When He resurrected the dead, He resurrected the dead. His own resurrection describes His own resurrection.

Your example of Christ's resurrection just shows your unbelief. As a resurrected man, He was not confined by physical limitations; He passed through the locked door. It is NOT a metaphorical story.

Why not try accepting what the Bible clearly says? Your unbelief is clouding your mind.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I like your reading. And I probably agree with it for the most part.

What I would say in opposition to your parable is that the parabolic meaning can't dispense with the literal meaning. It can augment it. It can even be more important than the literal. But it can't displace it. . . . Jesus walked on water. If a theology can't swallow that it will drown . . . if you can forgive the mixed metaphor.



John

I would understand it, that, everyone else beside Christ, have to ride the Ark of Faith, to be saved from sinking in the sea of corruption, while the Christ, Himself can walk on the water without sinking, naturally, as He has divine nature.
I see the stories in Bible, containing hidden and spiritual meanings to discover.
I don't see any importance if Jesus literally walkes on water or not.
Physically speaking, Jesus was a human like everyone else. He had to eat, sleep and breath to stay alive He could get sick. Just like anyone else. This is why He died on the cross.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Do you really have to twist logic to try to prove your point? The miracles that are described cannot be parables; they are statements of fact by the authors. There is a clear distinction in the Bible between parables -- a succinct, didactic story, in prose or verse, that illustrates one or more instructive lessons or principles -- and the reporting of occurrences.
I believe, the Bible intentionally was written to be difficult to recognize its Parables. It is because a major part of the Faith, is to test the believers.

Now, consider, Jesus rejected their request to perform any miracles.

He said, no miraculous signs shall be given to this generation. This is now clear, no miracles ever was performed in a physical and literal sense.

But, it is not like, Christ only rebuked the people of His time for asking to see Miracles. It is obvious that all people would be treated the same by Christ.
Thus, in order to separate people from people, the Bible is written in a way to appear that Christ did miracles. If we are not careful, we would think, these are miracles, and then we fail the test. We will be counted among the same type of people who were asking Jesus to show miracles. The same ones, who could not believe Jesus was Messiah unless He did miracles. The same ones who were called "adulterer generation" by Jesus. Then, our fate would be the same as those who Christ rejected in His time.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
I would understand it, that, everyone else beside Christ, have to ride the Ark of Faith, to be saved from sinking in the sea of corruption, while the Christ, Himself can walk on the water without sinking, naturally, as He has divine nature.
I see the stories in Bible, containing hidden and spiritual meanings to discover.
I don't see any importance if Jesus literally walkes on water or not.
Physically speaking, Jesus was a human like everyone else. He had to eat, sleep and breath to stay alive He could get sick. Just like anyone else. This is why He died on the cross.

From my perspective, many people, likely to include Baháʼu'lláh, have what we might call a divine nature. In Judaism, the Chachamin and Chazal, i.e., the Tsaddikim, have a divine nature. But that's different than Jesus Christ who's divine nature was true deity incarnate in his physical body. He is the Living God required for everything, literally everything, in the universe, to include the wisdom and divine insight of Baháʼu'lláh, the Tsaddikm, and to a lesser degree, you and me.




John
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
From my perspective, many people, likely to include Baháʼu'lláh, have what we might call a divine nature. In Judaism, the Chachamin and Chazal, i.e., the Tsaddikim, have a divine nature. But that's different than Jesus Christ who's divine nature was true deity incarnate in his physical body. He is the Living God required for everything, literally everything, in the universe, to include the wisdom and divine insight of Baháʼu'lláh, the Tsaddikm, and to a lesser degree, you and me.




John

Ok, these are the beliefs though.

The truth of Jesus as Messiah can only be established through the Scriptures.
In our time, there is absolutely nothing else, that can be used to prove Jesus was the Messiah.
Likewise, through the Scriptures I can see, Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgment, the Lord of the Host promised in the Bible.
 

Betho_br

Active Member
Ok, these are the beliefs though.

The truth of Jesus as Messiah can only be established through the Scriptures.
In our time, there is absolutely nothing else, that can be used to prove Jesus was the Messiah.
Likewise, through the Scriptures I can see, Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgment, the Lord of the Host promised in the Bible.


1) Deuteronomy 32:46-47 King James Version
And he said unto them, Set your hearts unto all the words which I testify among you this day, which ye shall command your children to observe to do, all the words of this law. For it is not a vain thing for you; because it is your life: and through this thing ye shall prolong your days in the land, whither ye go over Jordan to possess it.

2) Isaiah 45:21-25 LXX
Proclaim, and draw near, and take counsel together; Who made this heard from ancient times? Who has since announced it? Is it not me, O Lord? For there is no God but I; There is no just God and Savior besides me. Look to me, and you will be saved, all the ends of the earth; for I am God, and there is no other. By myself I have sworn, the logos of justice has gone out of my mouth, and I will not turn back; that every knee will bow before me, and every tongue will swear by me. Of me it will be said: Truly in the Lord there is justice and strength; They will come to him, but all those who are angry with him will be put to shame. But in the Lord he will be justified, and all the descendants of Israel will boast.

a) How old is it?

b) Who can be looked at and therefore saved?
.
c) What does “all the terms of the earth” mean?

d) Who is the "logos of justice"?
.
e) How will the justification be given?

3) Luke 24:44 King James Version
And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and in the prophets, and in the psalms, concerning me.

4) Golden_Gate_(Jerusalem) I generally don't cite Wikipedia, I'll make an exception.

5) What is true. Prophet (messenger of God) is one of the titles of Jesus in the Christian Bible. The philosophical development of the Trinity is a dogma pertinent only to Catholics, although it can be proven by a partial interpretation by Sola Scriptura in John 14:10,20 according to Basil the Great, that is, if Jesus' relationship within the Father is timeless and eternal, it is evident that Muslims will say that it is a temporal and missiological relationship. Both interpretations are possible in the context. The Doctrine of the Trinity has partial proof in Scripture, albeit fragile, in addition to the philosophical development of the so-called Trinitarian formulas.

6) “Word” of God

The Quran refers to Jesus as a “Word” of God in three places. No other prophet was described with this title.

“O Mary! Surely God gives you His Word, whose name will be the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary...” (Quran 3:45)

“The Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only a messenger of God and His Word, with which He bestowed upon Mary...” (Quran 4:171)

“...God gives you the birth of John, who will confirm the Word of God...” (Quran 3:39)

The truth is that when the Messiah comes, all the prophecies will be fulfilled, both for Jews, Christians and Muslims as well as for the rest of the world.
 
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jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
I believe, the Bible intentionally was written to be difficult to recognize its Parables. It is because a major part of the Faith, is to test the believers.

Now, consider, Jesus rejected their request to perform any miracles.

He said, no miraculous signs shall be given to this generation. This is now clear, no miracles ever was performed in a physical and literal sense.

But, it is not like, Christ only rebuked the people of His time for asking to see Miracles. It is obvious that all people would be treated the same by Christ.
Thus, in order to separate people from people, the Bible is written in a way to appear that Christ did miracles. If we are not careful, we would think, these are miracles, and then we fail the test. We will be counted among the same type of people who were asking Jesus to show miracles. The same ones, who could not believe Jesus was Messiah unless He did miracles. The same ones who were called "adulterer generation" by Jesus. Then, our fate would be the same as those who Christ rejected in His time.
THAT is your interpretation of Scripture?

a) The Bible was not written to be difficult to understand. It was written by various authors thousands of years ago to cultures that bear no resemblance to ours. If anyone asks for wisdom and understanding and reads a translation in their normal language, the message is clear. It was not written to test believers.

b) If you think that Jesus didn't perform miracles, you clearly need to read the Bible more carefully (and don't take the words out of context).

c) Here is a verse that you clearly overlooked: "When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen.

d) You are in denial of what the New Testament clearly says.
 

jimb

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Ok, these are the beliefs though.

The truth of Jesus as Messiah can only be established through the Scriptures.
In our time, there is absolutely nothing else, that can be used to prove Jesus was the Messiah.
Likewise, through the Scriptures I can see, Baha'u'llah is the Lord of the Day of Judgment, the Lord of the Host promised in the Bible.
Baha'u'llah is not mentioned in the Bible!

And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims. 2 Samuel 6:2 KJV

There is only one God who dwells between the cherubim, and it's not Baha'u'llah.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
THAT is your interpretation of Scripture?

a) The Bible was not written to be difficult to understand. It was written by various authors thousands of years ago to cultures that bear no resemblance to ours. If anyone asks for wisdom and understanding and reads a translation in their normal language, the message is clear. It was not written to test believers.

b) If you think that Jesus didn't perform miracles, you clearly need to read the Bible more carefully (and don't take the words out of context).

c) Here is a verse that you clearly overlooked: "When he came near the place where the road goes down the Mount of Olives, the whole crowd of disciples began joyfully to praise God in loud voices for all the miracles they had seen.

d) You are in denial of what the New Testament clearly says.

You are reading the Scriptures too literally and thinking it is all simple.

Whereas the Scriptures says:


"But you, Daniel, roll up and seal the words of the scroll until the time of the end. Many will go here and there to increase knowledge.”

.
.
.

"Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand." Daniel 12:8-10


These verses in old Testament say that the Book of God is sealed. It is not possible to read and understand its mysteries untill the Time of End.

In Revelation, it makes it more clear that, only when Christ comes at the End, He will open the Seven seals of the Book of God, the Bible and tells us, its hidden meanings:

"And I saw in the right hand of Him that sat on the throne a book written within and on the backside, sealed with seven seals. And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon. And one of the elders said to me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof” (Revelation 5:1–5).

Which this Prophecy is fulfilled by Manifestation of Baha'u'llah.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
Baha'u'llah is not mentioned in the Bible!

And David arose, and went with all the people that were with him from Baale of Judah, to bring up from thence the ark of God, whose name is called by the name the Lord of hosts that dwelleth between the cherubims. 2 Samuel 6:2 KJV

There is only one God who dwells between the cherubim, and it's not Baha'u'llah.

Baha'u'llah is mentioned in the Bible many times, and in fact the exact time, and year and place He will appear also mentioned in the Bible.
 

Sir Joseph

Member
But this method of interpreting it literally unless style or context dictates otherwise, is a man-made idea. It is also subject to one's own judgment. Since human beings are fallible, their judgment can be faulty and take what is Parable, or Allegorical as literal.





Any of those Miracles can be very well understood as parables and metaphor.

For example Jesus cured they blind, can mean He opened His spiritual insight.
He resurrected the dead, can mean, He awakened the misguide people, and revived them spiritually.
His own Resurrection can very well mean, the Rise of Christianity after His crucifixion, as Bible says:

"Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it." 1 Corinthians 12:27

Now, for example, here is one of the reasons why Resurrection of Christ could not have been physical:


"A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you" John 20:26

If Jesus had a physical body, He could not have come inside when the doors were locked. So, as you say, the context makes it known it couldn't be a physical event. It is a metaphorical story, that has a spiritual meaning. That does not make Jesus any less than who He was.
Remember the Father, does not have a physical body either.

I really don't want to waste time arguing against anyone, but for those here capable of influence on this issue, I'll counter your views once. Sorry, but I think your reasoning is completely backwards concerning the interpretation of Bible scripture literally or allegorically. My explanation depends not on well researched studies and references but upon common sense and some basic Bible reasoning.

Concerning man-made interpretative judgements of written or spoken information, I am quite confident that rational people go through life taking most such information literally, not allegorically - unless the context or style suggests otherwise. Whether its someone calling you to dinner, an ad listing something on sale, or an article telling you so and so got arrested last night, we are bombarded with hundreds of statements each day. Life would be a madhouse if we allegorized these statements or events by default. I'd go so far to say that we couldn't function or live rationally under such premises. No one could believe, understand, or interpret anything because there would be no objective reality.

To suggest that a literal interpretation of information is subject to more man-made subjectivity than an allegorical one is equally irrational. Why? Because a simple, literal interpretation has a "most likely" intended meaning, whereas allegorizing opens up opportunity for all kinds of theories. This could be done with nearly any sentence or idea no matter how simple and obvious the intent is, but here's one Biblical example. The Genesis creation account is pretty simple if you interpret it literally. Even a child can read and understand what it says about the occurence and timing of events. In other words, if you take it literally, there's one general account option. For those (many) that reject the clearly written words, at least four major alternative theories have been developed which allegorize (or otherwise dismiss) the clearly written account. You mustn't even choose sides to see that a literal reading of the text offers less opportunity for man made, subjective error than a multitude of alternative theories based upon allegorization.

As you've suggested, you can allegorize away any miracle that Jesus did, giving countless theories of what really happened. That's what skeptics do with every supernatural or disliked event in the Bible. But, they don't do that with other historical documents. It's telling that the standards used by skeptics for interpreting (or believing) the Bible are not consistent with their determination of other historical works. There's no justification for this other than a predetermined bias against anything supernatural.

Concerning Jesus' post-resurrected supernatural body, the Bible shows us how He was both body and spirit, not just one or the other. Luke 24:36-43 makes this clear with convincing specificity:

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.

There is no contextual, structural, or grammatical reason to allegorize this account of Jesus' first meeting with the apostles. Those who do, do so merely to dehumanize Jesus or to dismiss the supernatural event altogether. I'd suggest that such tactics warrant no respect since they go against the evidence - that being a historical document based upon eye witness accounts.

Although I think it's tragic to reject God and His written word in the Bible, I accept it as one's choice and will of the heart. But justifying one's unbelief by dismissing or misinterpreting what the Bible says? I'd call that foolishness - believing what you want the Bible to say rather than what it actually says.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I really don't want to waste time arguing against anyone, but for those here capable of influence on this issue, I'll counter your views once. Sorry, but I think your reasoning is completely backwards concerning the interpretation of Bible scripture literally or allegorically. My explanation depends not on well researched studies and references but upon common sense and some basic Bible reasoning.

Concerning man-made interpretative judgements of written or spoken information, I am quite confident that rational people go through life taking most such information literally, not allegorically - unless the context or style suggests otherwise. Whether its someone calling you to dinner, an ad listing something on sale, or an article telling you so and so got arrested last night, we are bombarded with hundreds of statements each day. Life would be a madhouse if we allegorized these statements or events by default. I'd go so far to say that we couldn't function or live rationally under such premises. No one could believe, understand, or interpret anything because there would be no objective reality.

To suggest that a literal interpretation of information is subject to more man-made subjectivity than an allegorical one is equally irrational. Why? Because a simple, literal interpretation has a "most likely" intended meaning, whereas allegorizing opens up opportunity for all kinds of theories. This could be done with nearly any sentence or idea no matter how simple and obvious the intent is, but here's one Biblical example. The Genesis creation account is pretty simple if you interpret it literally. Even a child can read and understand what it says about the occurence and timing of events. In other words, if you take it literally, there's one general account option. For those (many) that reject the clearly written words, at least four major alternative theories have been developed which allegorize (or otherwise dismiss) the clearly written account. You mustn't even choose sides to see that a literal reading of the text offers less opportunity for man made, subjective error than a multitude of alternative theories based upon allegorization.

As you've suggested, you can allegorize away any miracle that Jesus did, giving countless theories of what really happened. That's what skeptics do with every supernatural or disliked event in the Bible. But, they don't do that with other historical documents. It's telling that the standards used by skeptics for interpreting (or believing) the Bible are not consistent with their determination of other historical works. There's no justification for this other than a predetermined bias against anything supernatural.

Concerning Jesus' post-resurrected supernatural body, the Bible shows us how He was both body and spirit, not just one or the other. Luke 24:36-43 makes this clear with convincing specificity:

While they were still talking about this, Jesus himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.” They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at my hands and my feet. It is I myself! Touch me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.” When he had said this, he showed them his hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, he asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave him a piece of broiled fish, and he took it and ate it in their presence.

There is no contextual, structural, or grammatical reason to allegorize this account of Jesus' first meeting with the apostles. Those who do, do so merely to dehumanize Jesus or to dismiss the supernatural event altogether. I'd suggest that such tactics warrant no respect since they go against the evidence - that being a historical document based upon eye witness accounts.

Although I think it's tragic to reject God and His written word in the Bible, I accept it as one's choice and will of the heart. But justifying one's unbelief by dismissing or misinterpreting what the Bible says? I'd call that foolishness - believing what you want the Bible to say rather than what it actually says.


Please explain how Jesus came in, when according to Bible, the doors were locked.
 

Sir Joseph

Member
After reading more of your posts InvestigateTruthsaid, I don't want to discount your beliefs in God and some things in the Bible, but you demonstratedly do not have a proper understanding of the Bible or Christian faith at all. You have some other religion but seem reasonable and receptive to many points here. I can only guess you've got some non-Christian sources influencing your views of the Bible. If you like your religion, I'm not one to force change upon you, but if you want a religion based upon the whole Bible, you might seek truth from Bible believing teachers and preachers. I'll reco a few good sources only if you want.
 

Sir Joseph

Member
Please explain how Jesus came in, when according to Bible, the doors were locked.
I gotta go, but one more quick answer to your short question. He either came through the wall in some supernatural way or appeared suddenly, being outside time and space. Seriously, none of us can understand how our resurrected supernatural bodies will operate in the new world, but they will be both physical and spiritual. Jesus gave us a good clue with his resurrected body and multiple appearances.
 

InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
I gotta go, but one more quick answer to your short question.

Ok. Maybe when you have more time, we can discuss more.
He either came through the wall in some supernatural way

That is not what scriptures say though.
you are making a theology here, that is not explicitly supported by Scriptures.
Scriptures does not say He came through the wall in a supernatural way.


or appeared suddenly, being outside time and space.

the same here. Scriptures does not say, a physically resurrected body, can traverse outside time and space. You came up with a new idea which is not supported by scriptures.
interpretations must be supported by other verses, so, you can claim, it is the true Christianity.

Seriously, none of us can understand how our resurrected supernatural bodies will operate in the new world, but they will be both physical and spiritual. Jesus gave us a good clue with his resurrected body and multiple appearances.

But, with any false religion, we can say, it is truth, but we just cannot understand it. If that was the way to justify our beliefs then, anyone could invent a Religion, and whichever part of it was illogical, he could justify it, by saying "we don't understand", or it happened Miraculously, but we don't really know how God did it.
If Bible is true, it must explain itself. It must back up itself.

Now let me propose an explanation and see if it can be backed up by Bible itself.

It could be that, nothing physically actually happend. What the Author of Gospel is writing is, a vision that was given to him by God. So, this story of resurrected Jesus, could have been an inspiration by God, in a dream or vision.
And to back this up by Bible, we say, the Bible itself claims, it is inspired by God. "All Scriptures are inspired by God...."
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
If Peter had indeed seen so many Miracles and had recognized Him as the Messiah, does it really make sense he denied Jesus 3 times?

If you were instead of Peter, do you think that you would have denied Him also, if you had seen all those Miracles?
  • how do you know?

Matthew 26:34​


ESVJesus said to him, "Truly, I tell you, this very night, before the rooster crows, you will deny me three times."




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Peter knew that Jesus of Nazareth was more than a mere man, for he saw Him give sight to the blind, cleanse the leper, cause the lame to walk, and raise the dead (see Matthew 11:4–5; see also John 2:11; 10:25; 20:30–31).


Now, not only Peter had seen so many Miracles of Jesus, but also:

Peter witnessed the appearance of Moses and Elijah during the event known as the Transfiguration of Jesus. This event is described in the Synoptic Gospels (Matthew 17:1-9, Mark 9:2-8, and Luke 9:28-36).


How could possibly someone who had witnessed so many extraordinary events, did not have enough faith in God or Christ?
I was long gone after He said I had to drink His blood.

I believe Peter saw that Jesus was not saving Himself so why would he think Jesus would keep him from harm also.
 
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