PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Maybe but what lesson is left? Doesn't it loose its effect?
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If religion is a placebo...
- Thread starter PearlSeeker
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PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Tell me how can you read the Bible as the Word of God, pray, worship God... without believing it?
I see it is the "Divine Elixer". This personal acceptance of the elixir comes from this passage.
"The Book of God is wide open, and His Word is summoning mankind unto Him. No more than a mere handful, however, hath been found willing to cleave to His Cause, or to become the instruments for its promotion. These few have been endued with the Divine Elixir that can, alone, transmute into purest gold the dross of the world, and have been empowered to administer the infallible remedy for all the ills that afflict the children of men." – Baha’u’llah, Gleanings from the Writings of Baha’u’llah, p. 183.
So I see the Divine Elixer is the Word of God.
Regards Tony
I wouldn't think so.
To bring back the example of Rama, much of the lesson the Ramayana teaches is to follow one's dharma. Even if Rama never existed, that lesson is still valuable.
You'd have to ask a Christian, Jew, or Muslim. I'm a Pagan, Druid, and Witch. I don't read the Bible or worship their god.
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
Sorry, I haven't seen your post before...
I agree. These things work also without any belief or magical thinking. I would add also some things to the list.
Social relationships: family, friendship, community, club... Having someone who you care for each other, trust, rely on, belong...
Humor can be helpful. Remember Patch Adams?
Music (my favorite), art, books...
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
But the question was: what if religion is not true?
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
This is important but I'm not sure if this is enough to fill the existential void. For example a mother whose son committed suicide and she sees life not worth living anymore would find no consolation in moral lessons.
No, she wouldn't.
I can't think of anything comforting that kind of pain.
For some things, there are no medicine.
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Everything you described was a system of religious belief that doesn't hold up to rational scrutiny very well. At least with Buddhism as a system of religious belief, which you claim to ascribe to, it side-steps these theistic problems when God as a personal "other" is laden with anthropomorphic projections, such as questions that 'if God is all powerful, all loving, and all knowledgeable, then why does he allow suffering?', to plague our thoughts and cause distress to our beliefs.
I don't see modifying, side-stepping, or dropping mythic-literal, or pre-rational quandaries like this to be the same thing as abandoning "religion". Buddhism for instance most certainly is a system of religious belief. It's just set up differently than theisitic systems. But at its heart is the same "belief" in something greater than the simple bleak, deconstructionist, materialistic, atheistic worldview. They seek Buddhahood. Buddhamind. Enlightenment. Emptiness. Etc.
All of that is motivated by the same impulses that the theist is, ultimately speaking that is, to "find God". To "flee samsara", to see beyond the veil into the holy of holies, to break free from the world of maya or illusion. And so forth.
So I will argue that even atheism that seeks some positive hopeful view of life, beyond some bleak nihilism, is itself engaging that same "faith", that impulse for 'truth, beauty, and goodness' that all religions seek. And that "belief", that "hope" is what brings about that "placebo effect". So if it's not nihilism, it's belief, it's faith. The only difference is finding a belief system that is compatible with their rational minds, that's all.
Most all of what you say I recognize, but I think there is this element above that may be being overlooked.
How so?
True in what regard? But here's the dilemma I believe is expressed in the OP. If someone has a religious belief that, let's say this one person is supposed to the prophet of the age, and they discover through rational inquiry that a lot of that is just smoke and mirrors to inspire people to believe in them, what then happens?
If the religion isn't actually "true" in the sense of the way they were told to believe in it, then how can the placebo effect work for them? How can they still believe, without being asked to sacrifice their rational minds in order to do so for the benefit of faith?
I can tell you this is the same thing for anyone who has deconstructed the Christian religion, such as I have. No longer do I believe in a literal 6 day creation. No longer do I believe that the Bible is the literal word of God without error. I see the construction of it as a human work, full of both faith, and flaws.
So the question is, once you see that the Great Wizard of Oz, is a religious production, and the faith you had that Oz was that image projected on the screen, now has the knowledge of the person behind that image controlling the levers, what happens? How do you rescue the baby of faith or belief, the benefit from that placebo effect, once you realize Oz is a created mythology, and not literally a reality in the ways in which the mind imagined is as?
What happens to faith, once belief is so confronted?
That's the true quandary. Do we just go into denial and try to defend the beliefs? Try to prove science is wrong and the earth is 6000 years old? Do we try to support the idea that our chosen prophet is the true prophet? Do we become defensive and build up our apologetics to protect that image of Oz and deny that there is a man behind the curtain?
How long can that be maintained? What happens when we can no longer be dishonest with ourselves about that? That is exactly the place I found myself. But how can faith be held, when the structures of belief are not longer strong enough to support the mind? How could I still have faith, without being asked to commit intellectual suicide for its gains?
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It has negative effect on people.
Bible tells people should love others, treat them well and it gives hope. Atheism tells, don't believe in God, it takes away hope and doesn't offer anything constructive.
Do you believe that atheists don't love other people?
If it is a placebo, then it is not much of a religion. Personally, I don't think it is very proper, clarifying nor useful to treat belief in the supernatural or in deities as having much to do with religiosity.
Religion is an actual activity, which real people engage in. It is supposed to make some real difference and to be course-corrected when necessary, so that this difference is made positive at least in the overall balance.
(Yes, I know that many people use entirely different understandings. I don't see the point, so I am not following their lead.)
Therefore, the OP is effectively asking what, in my terminology, would characterize a proper, legit, functional, well-cared religious practice.
There may be (and probably are) entirely different yet legit answers. Mine is that religion is supposed to be about language, personal development and a conscious effort at nurturing some form of desirable qualities, circunstances and/or virtues. Often but not always in some sort of social environment.
There are those who claim that the desirable qualities have a lot to do with some form of acceptance or submission to some form of all-creator and/or its avatars or prophets.
Again, I just don't see the point. It is truly weird to call those attitudes "religious".
PearlSeeker
Well-Known Member
For some people it's the other way around.
Not at all, dear @paarsurrey .
Atheism isn't in opposition to religion, but rather to theism. If anything, we are a boon - quite possibly an urgent and badly needed boon - for true religiosity to blosson. We are the main force protecting religion from the harm inflicted on it from blind, destructive belief.
Quite right.