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If scientists manage to create life then what?
- Thread starter frg001
- Start date
Opethian
Active Member
Answers In Genesis already prepared an article for the case that would happen. It's ridiculous 
.
http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/1122create_life.asp
I'm just posting this so you can all laugh at it.
.http://www.answersingenesis.org/docs2002/1122create_life.asp
I'm just posting this so you can all laugh at it.
Anastasios
Member
frg001 said:
No! Science and Quran support each other. It would absolutely made my faith stronger, actually. But I believe that the God's existence cannot be disproved. Even if they can create "the" life from raw materials, they would still need a creator who created the materials which would be used by scientist to construct that new "life". I think the most difficult for them is to create from none. And this happened only in the first creation of universe and maybe will probably be repeated in the second creation, I don't know. Whole universe is under a perfect sytem, which works continously and covers everything we can imagine. Everything has a detailed excellent order and everything is a part of this excellent order. And this excellency is the primary argument for god's unavoidable existence.
___
"At the time the Holy Quran was revealed, the human understanding of the nature of the cosmos and the movement or the stillness of the heavenly bodies was extremely primitive and obscure. This is no longer the case, as our knowledge of the universe has considerably advanced and expanded by the present age.
Some of the theories relating to the creation of the universe have been verified as facts, whereas some others are still being explored. The concept of the expanding universe belongs to the former category, and has been universally accepted by the scientific community as 'fact'. This discovery was first made by Edwin Hubble in the 1920s. Yet some thirteen centuries before this, it was clearly mentioned in the Quran:
And the heaven We built with Our own powers (aydin) and indeed We go on expanding it (musi'un). (51:48)
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were a closed-up mass (ratqan), then We clove them asunder (fataqna)? And We made from water every living thing. Will they not then believe? (21:31)
In this verse the words ratqan (closed-up mass), and fataqna (We clove them asunder), carry the basic message of the whole verse. Authentic Arabic lexicons give two meanings of ratqan, that have great relevance to the topic under discussion. One meaning is 'the coming together of something and the consequent infusion into a single entity' and the second meaning is 'total darkness'. Both these meanings are significantly applicable. Taken together, they offer an apt description of the singularity of a black hole.
A black hole is a gravitationally collapsed mass of colossal size. It begins with the collapse of such massive stars as are 15 or more times the size of the sun. The immensity of their inward gravitational pull causes the stars to collapse into a much smaller size. The gravitational pull is further concentrated and results in the further collapse of the entire mass into a supernova. At this stage the basic bricks of matter such as molecules, atoms etc. begin to be crushed into a nondescript mass of energy. Thus that moment in space-time is created which is called event horizon. The inward gravitational pull of that something becomes so powerful that all forms of radiation are pulled back so that even light cannot escape. A resultant total darkness ensues which earns it the name black hole, reminding one of the word ratqan used by the Quran indicating total darkness. This is called singularity which lies beyond the event horizon.
A black hole once created grows rapidly because even distant stars begin to be pulled in with the progressive concentration of gravitational energy. It is estimated that the mass of a black hole could grow as large as a hundred million times the mass of the sun. As its gravitational field widens, more material from space is drawn in at a speed close to that of light. In 1997 there was observational evidence suggesting that in our galaxy a black hole of 2,000,000 solar masses existed. But other calculations show that in our universe there could be many black holes as big as 3,000,000,000 solar masses.4 At that concentration of gravitational pull even distant stars would stagger and lose their mooring to be devoured by a glutton of such magnitude. Thus the process of ratqan is completed resulting into that singularity which is both completely closed as well as comprising total darkness. In answer to the question as to how the universe was initially created, the two most recent theories are both Big Bang theories. They claim that it was initiated from a singularity which suddenly erupted releasing the trapped mass leading yet again into the creation of a new universe through the event horizon. This dawn of light sprouting from the event horizon is called the white hole5,6. One of the two theories relating to the expansion predicts that the universe thus created will carry on expanding forever. The other claims that the expansion of the universe will, at some time, be reversed because the inward gravitational pull will ultimately prevail. Eventually, all matter will be pulled back again to form perhaps another gigantic black hole. This latter view appears to be supported by the Quran.
Whilst speaking of the first creation of the universe, the Quran clearly describes its ending into yet another black hole, connecting the end to the beginning, thus completing the full circle of the story of cosmos. The Quran declares:
Remember the day when We shall roll up the heavens like the rolling up of written scrolls ... (21:105)
A mass of accretion from space falling into a black hole, as described above, would be pressed into a sheet under the enormous pressure created by the gravitational and electromagnetic forces. As the centre of the black hole is constantly revolving around itself, this sheetas it approacheswill begin to be wrapped around it, before disappearing into the realm of the unknown at last.
The verse continues:
... As We began the first creation, so shall We repeat it; a promise binding on Us; that We shall certainly fulfil. (21:105)
Following the eventual collapse of the universe into a black hole, here we have the promise of a new beginning. God will recreate the universe, as He had done before. The collapsed universe will re-emerge from its darkness and the whole process of creation will start yet again (see plate 2). This wrapping up and unfolding of the universe appears to be an ongoing phenomenon, according to the Holy Quran.
This Quranic concept of the beginning and the end of the creation is undoubtedly extraordinary. It would not have been less amazing if it had been revealed to a highly educated person of our contemporary age, but one is wonder-struck by the fact that this most advanced knowledge, regarding the perpetually repeating phenomenon of creation, was revealed more than fourteen hundred years ago to an unlettered dweller of the Arabian desert."
continue on: http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_5.html
Mr Spinkles
Mr
Anastasios--
Very interesting post, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Very interesting post, thanks for sharing your thoughts.
Define "excellent order". For example, every now and then Jupiter's gravitational field throws debris from the primordial solar system at the Earth and causes a mass extinction event. Is this "excellent order"? Animals of many species often don't survive until adulthood, and even if they do, it is often an extremely difficult life, a constant fight for survival. Is this "excellent order"? Or is it just "Nature"?Anastasios said:
Anastasios
Member
Mr Spinkles said:
Yes, all you mention are part of this excellent order. Nature is still excellent, though men destroy it
. Nature is not far from God. They are always together. Nothing occures out of natural laws, that is why I don't believe in miracles, when it is proved that they are naturally impossible. We are in any case in the laws of nature.____________________________________________________________
Let's read a bit more from Mirza Tahir Ahmad (I love this book
):"It has been clearly demonstrated that the entire universe would be drawn back into a black hole, which later on would explode into another Big Bang releasing its entrapped mass once again. From this the reader may be misled to believe that the universe, thus appearing and disappearing periodically, will live on and on forever. What follows will eliminate any such misconception of a never-ending universe.
It can be mathematically proved that this universe which we occupy can never be eternal in relation to its past, nor can it be eternal in relation to its future. To elaborate this point further we need to explain the scientific definition of the term 'entropy'. Entropy simply means that the material universe, in whatever form it exists, continuously loses an infinitesimal part of its mass in the form of escaped energy which can never be retrieved again.
All things that exist interact with each other under certain conditions. For hydrogen and oxygen to produce water is one of the simplest examples of elemental interaction. When a molecule of water is created by mixing hydrogen and oxygen, it releases part of the energy which had gone into its making.
If hydrogen is made to burn in a jar full of oxygen by blowing a jet of burning hydrogen into it, it will burn only till the time that the oxygen is exhausted. What is left into the bargain is water. While this chemical reaction takes place, it releases energy. To convert water again into hydrogen and oxygen can only be possible if the amount of energy which was released during the synthesis of water is re-supplied to separate the constituents of water, i.e. oxygen and hydrogen, once again.
In all these cases there is no permanent loss of energy. This is not what is referred to as the loss of energy through entropy. The long and short of this is that every chemical reaction either releases energy or absorbs it, and all such exchanges of energy do not produce any permanent waste. But there is some loss of energy which is constant and irreversible. It has nothing to do with normal chemical reactions. Instead of going into the scientific complexities of how this happens, the reader is advised to visualize a hot body gradually cooling off. If it cools to the level of the ambient temperature of the atmosphere, a state of equilibrium will be reached. The flow of heat from the hot body to the cool atmosphere cannot reverse itself. It is always heat which flows in the direction of cold. When at last the entire heat of the universe would have thus exhausted itself reaching a state of equilibrium, no further exchange of heat would remain possible and no chemical reaction could be visualized. It is this to which scientists refer as the 'heat death' of the universe.
The quantum of the consumed energy of the universe continues to rise and the quantum of the consumable energy of the entire universe continues to fall. Hence a time may come, however remote, when the entire universe will ultimately sink into an inert state which could never be revitalized into its previous form of material existence. No action would ever take place, no reaction would ever be possible. This is another name for absolute death or nothingness.
To have an idea of how infinitesimal this loss of energy is, the reader should remember that even scientists have to estimate it with the help of complex mathematics. For them the universe remains practically the same in weight and mass as it was twenty billion years ago. The escaped energy can be measured with reference to the ambient temperature of the universe, which is a mere 4°K up to this point in time. This means that there is no space in the knowable universe which has a temperature lower that 4°K. So energy that would flow in the direction of this lowest temperature, would become a part of it and could never be lifted up again to higher degree of existence. Whether one is able to understand this mathematical jargon or not, of this one must be certain that the universe is constantly losing something which can never be recycled. It can never be added back to the mass of the universe again.
Having explained entropy enough for the purpose of this book, we now draw the attention of the reader to its inevitable conclusion. Prior to the full comprehension of entropy, the majority of scientists had believed that there was no need for a Creator because all forms of existence continued to exist eternally. Now a better understanding of entropy has revolutionized this view of at least some of the members of the scientific community. The rest somehow avoid confronting the problem. Eternity can be examined in its relation to the past as well as to that of its future. The scientists who believe matter to be eternal, believe it to be eternal with reference to both its past and its future. This means that when we look back, no point can be conceived as the beginning of anything that exists. Eternity has no beginning nor has it an end.
Thus the scientific myth of the eternity of matter has been exploded out of existence by the discovery of the principle of entropy. Even if this universe were somehow conceived to be eternal, it would continue to lose its mass incessantly under the effect of entropy. Logically this can only mean that it should become non-existent at a time eternally remote from us. Looking back at the past from any point in time, eternity will appear as endless as it would appear when viewed from another point in time. In other words, eternity can never be chased to any moment in time beyond which it does not exist. Anyone can imagine himself chasing eternity backwards in time. Even if he travels in the direction of the past for trillions times trillions times trillions of years, sitting on the shoulders of light, he could never find its other end. If he did he should rest assured he was barking up the wrong treeit was not eternity he was chasing!
Now imagine him once again, travelling backwards in search of a universe. If he ever finds one, eternity would snatch it away from his hand and shove it back onto the path of endlessness yet again. A difficult idea to conceive but in reality it is quite simple and easy to understand. If such a hypothetical traveller in time finds any trace of the universe, he should inquire from himself as to why this universe had not dwindled out of existence long before he had caught up with it. The traveller could easily work out that beyond that point in time, entropy had enough time left to swallow an endless number of such universes.
Imagine a colossal figure big enough to accommodate a myriad of gigantic time steps and try to fill eternity with them. The figure will, most certainly, come to an end but not eternity. Even if entropy required a trillion raised to the power of a trillion years to bring about the 'heat death' of the universe, it would still be inevitable. Now return from this hypothetical pursuit into the past to the present and enquire from yourself why does this universe around you exist at this point in time? Should it not have been completely destroyed by entropy so that it could not have continued to escape detection during its flight into the endless past?
Yet there is another point to be borne in mind. Entropy or no entropy, the theoretical scientists who once believed that protons were ageless, have reached a consensus of opinion that protons too have a definite span of age which they cannot transcend. Whether their age is 1032 or 1034 years is immaterial; even if it were estimated to be one hundred thousand raised to the power of one hundred thousand, if they were ever created, they would still come to an end at last. If they were never created howeverand existed eternallythen the hand of entropy should have annihilated them an endless number of years before.
Wastefulness and eternity cannot go hand in hand. Everything wasteful must come to an end. But lo! We are here, both the writer of these words and the reader at this moment in time. The universe which gave birth to us has no right to occupy this point in time along with all the inanimate forms of existence, if it were eternal.
Some may find it perplexing but it is a simple question of a mathematical equation. A wasteful body cannot be eternal. If it is eternal, it cannot be wasteful. The only option left to us is to believe in an Eternal Creator Who is beyond and above the reach of entropy and wastefulness. Surprisingly, this is the same inescapable conclusion which was drawn by Aristotle two thousand and four hundred years before us. It remains as valid today as it was during his time.
continue on http://www.alislam.org/library/books/revelation/part_4_section_6.html
The Grey Wolf
ehT daM s'doG daM goD
This will bring about the end of the world of man. It will bring about the age of super mutants and mad scientist-freaks. The earth will become the home of crap we've only seen in science fiction movies!!!:149: NERDS REJOICE!!! ALL OTHERS TREMBLE BEFORE OUR MIGHT!!!:jam:
Mr Spinkles
Mr
He's saying "Because the universe has not existed for an infinite amount of time, it must have been created by an Eternal Creator". Unfortunately, that is a non sequitur. There could just as easily be no Eternal Creator, several Eternal Creators, or a non-eternal Creator who him/her/itself was created by even higher Creators or laws. My laptop is not eternal....does that mean it must have an Eternal Creator, too?Mirza Tahir Ahmad said:
Popeyesays
Well-Known Member
frg001 said:
Well, when man CREATES the raw materials from nothing, ask again.
Regards,
Scott
Anastasios
Member
Mr Spinkles said:
So you can put your solution forward, if you assume that you have any other rational explanation to stop the progress before Eternal Creator.
lilithu
The Devil's Advocate
Why would it? Life is already created from raw materials every day. It's called procreation. Test tube babies did not shake people's faith in God (whether or not they approved of the procedure). They understood that scientists were taking just taking parts and putting them together. Why should it be any different if scientists start a few steps further back with amino acids and lipids? Or even further back with atoms? It just makes the challenge much more complex and difficult, but it doesn't change the nature of the beast.frg001 said:
