If sin creates victims, then Gays and prostitutes are innocent.

[Autodidact]

Rape is not condoned, allowed, or commanded in this chapter.

TheKnight likes to make pronouncements about what scripture says, rather than merely producing the scripture in question:

"This is what you are to do," they said. "Kill every male and every woman who is not a virgin." 12 They found among the people living in Jabesh Gilead four hundred young women who had never slept with a man, and they took them to the camp at Shiloh in Canaan.

They kidnapped 400 young women into forced sexual slavery.

Rape is not condoned, allowed, or commanded in this chapter.

Now kill all the boys. And kill every woman who has slept with a man, 18 but save for yourselves every girl who has never slept with a man. .. The LORD said to Moses, 26 "You and Eleazar the priest and the family heads of the community are to count all the people and animals that were captured. 27 Divide the spoils between the soldiers who took part in the battle and the rest of the community. 28 From the soldiers who fought in the battle, set apart as tribute for the LORD one out of every five hundred, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep or goats. 29 Take this tribute from their half share and give it to Eleazar the priest as the LORD's part. 30 From the Israelites' half, select one out of every fifty, whether persons, cattle, donkeys, sheep, goats or other animals. Give them to the Levites, who are responsible for the care of the LORD's tabernacle." 31 So Moses and Eleazar the priest did as the LORD commanded Moses. 32 The plunder remaining from the spoils that the soldiers took was 675,000 sheep, 33 72,000 cattle, 34 61,000 donkeys 35 and 32,000 women who had never slept with a man.

In this passage virgins--that is, human beings--are treated as "plunder" and "spoils." That is, they are things that the Israelites won in battle. Now I suppose it's possible they wanted them in order to do anything else than have sex with them, but it strikes me as extremely unlikely. What do you think they took this plunder for?

Rape is not condoned, allowed, or commanded in this chapter.

14As for the women, the children, the livestock and everything else in the city, you may take these as plunder for yourselves. And you may use the plunder the LORD your God gives you from your enemies.

I don't much care how you quibble over the terminology, theKnight, it's barbaric. It's as evil as human behavior can get; there isn't anything worse than this behavior. This is what you espouse.

Rape is not condoned, allowed, or commanded in this chapter.

When you go to war against your enemies and the LORD your God delivers them into your hands and you take captives, 11 if you notice among the captives a beautiful woman and are attracted to her, you may take her as your wife.

What do you call it when you take a captive woman as your wife, pinochle?

Rape is not condoned, allowed, or commanded in this chapter.

You mean this one:

If a man happens to meet a virgin who is not pledged to be married and rapes her and they are discovered, 29 he shall pay the girl's father fifty shekels of silver. He must marry the girl, for he has violated her. He can never divorce her as long as he lives.

It clearly states that if a man rapes a woman, he pays fifty shekels and marries her.

Indeed. However, death is not always a punishment. Death is also a natural occurrence that happens when God decides to stop the flow of life to a particular person. In the case of the babies, this could be so.

Yup. God decides to "stop the flow of life" by ordering soldiers to stab them to death. Again, if you can't tell the different between a baby dying a natural death and slicing them in half with a sword, your religion has completely retarded your moral sense, and you should not be allowed to drive, vote, care for small children, or probably go out in public.

You don't know the difference between slavery and freedom, murder and natural death, or rape and love.

As I say, it's a set of primitive purity taboos and nothing more, not anything we could possibly classify as morality.

 

[Autodidact]

Well, the main reason it is less capable for achieving the goal of pleasing God is because your system denies God's existence.

You must have missed the "non-circular" part.

 

[Autodidact]

In essence, there is a goal of having a world of peace and holiness. By following God's laws, we can achieve that goal.

And you know this how?

That, in essence, is morality. Following God's laws for the sake of making the world a better place (both spiritually and physically).

As long as we make it clear that for you a better place means a place where babies are slaughtered, foreigners are enslaved, and fathers can sell their daughters into a lifetime of sexual slavery. But at least no one will be wearing cotton-poly blends!

Neither. Things are only good or evil in respect to a particular context. The act of pointing a gun at someone and pulling the trigger has no inherent moral value. The context in which the gun is pointed at someone and triggered is what determines the moral value. In the case of a man pointing a gun at another man and ruthlessly killing him for cheating on his wife, the act would be immoral. In the case of a police officer pointing a gun at a man who is raping a young child and killing him the act is moral.

And the case of a soldier following God's commandment to stab a baby and take a virgin captive the act is...________?

Your question assumes that things are good. I say that they are neither good nor bad. An action is either good or bad based on the context in which the actions is preformed.

Showing once again that the last thing Biblical ethics are is absolute. They're utterly post-modernist and situational.

 

[Autodidact]

It's not primarily a matter of "God has authority over me, therefore I do what He says." It's more like "God created me, and God has a vision for this world (peace, justice, spiritual completeness) that I share. God has told me that via certain methods (The Torah) He and I can bring this world to the state (peace, completeness, etc) that is found in the vision that He and I share. Therefore I do what God says."

Don't you mean, "I believe that God has authority over me..." And really, to be honest, it's more like, "I believe for no good reason whatsoever that God has authority over me..."

We do what He says because as the Creator of this world, as it's Designer, He knows what is best for it. Yes, I may not always understand or agree. However, I did not design the world and based on that fact that I trust what God says and do what He (as the designer) says to do.

Again, what you mean is, "We do what we think he says because we believe that as the Creator of this world..." right?

[qote]Morality is a system of behavior. Something is either a good system of behavior (moral) or a bad system of behavior (immoral) based on the goal attempting to be reach and how well that system of behavior achieves that goal.[/quote] Well, if the goal is irrational or immoral, the system will be likewise.

 

[RamaRaksha]

I've still yet to hear from any believer of the Abrahamic faith why one beong Homo-Sexual is harmfull or should be considered a "Immoral".

I'm waiting.........

This is where they descend into cults

 

[RamaRaksha]

It's not primarily a matter of "God has authority over me, therefore I do what He says." It's more like "God created me, and God has a vision for this world (peace, justice, spiritual completeness) that I share. God has told me that via certain methods (The Torah) He and I can bring this world to the state (peace, completeness, etc) that is found in the vision that He and I share. Therefore I do what God says."
We do what He says because as the Creator of this world, as it's Designer, He knows what is best for it. Yes, I may not always understand or agree. However, I did not design the world and based on that fact that I trust what God says and do what He (as the designer) says to do.

Morality is a system of behavior. Something is either a good system of behavior (moral) or a bad system of behavior (immoral) based on the goal attempting to be reach and how well that system of behavior achieves that goal.

No you are choosing to follow what is written in a book. Why should your book be right and the muslims be wrong? Or how about Hindus? It's a choice you are making to be a unquestioning slave.

How about the people who followed David Koresh? Or the church people in Utah who kicked out their young teenage boys and sent thier young teenage women as "wiwes" to the church elders? They too were following a book as told by the church elders, were they not?

Or how about the terrorists? were they not following a book also? You are no different from a terrorist?

 

[Mr Cheese]

If sin creates victims, then Gays and prostitutes are innocent.

My definition of sin says that sin is something that creates a victim or someone somehow hurt by the action. Someone must stand to complain about any given action before it can become a sin.

If there is no one that can legitimately say that they were directly or indirectly hurt by the actions of a gay person or prostitute then there is no sin.

The reason I bring up this topic is that I see that secular law will become the law of all nations in the near future. Religious law will become inconsequential to the state.
Even today, there are few states that practice religious law. They are under pressure as we speak to change.

I foresee, that at some point in time, the corner store will become the corner den of legal prostitution, gambling and drugs/alcohol use. Abortion clinics will likely be on the top floor of these corner store.

Some countries presently have laws against these so called victimless crimes. Those laws will eventually disappear.

With my definition of sin, I cannot and would not stop this trend.

I do not see this coming situation as one of a dignified nation populated by dignified men. What used to be restricted to red light districts will be everywhere. This unsightly, some would say ungodly, situation has always existed but at an underground level. Soon it will be above ground.

Is this future as I describe inevitable?

Will religionists have to bite the bullet and just close their eyes as they see their children drawn into this future/present life style?

Regards
DL

my definition of chicken says flightless bird that has five feet and is called gerald

because of this I think that sin is all about blue people

so lets discuss this

 

[Mr Cheese]

No you are choosing to follow what is written in a book. Why should your book be right and the muslims be wrong? Or how about Hindus? It's a choice you are making to be a unquestioning slave.

How about the people who followed David Koresh? Or the church people in Utah who kicked out their young teenage boys and sent thier young teenage women as "wiwes" to the church elders? They too were following a book as told by the church elders, were they not?

Or how about the terrorists? were they not following a book also? You are no different from a terrorist?

Perhaps his book has nicer pictures?

 

[RamaRaksha]

Perhaps his book has nicer pictures?

It does have nicer benefits - only we get to go to heaven and enjoy ourselves as he pets us, while the rest are going to hell! Let's see that means out 6 billion, 5 billion are going to hell! How can people be so sick as to believe in such abuse?

 

[Mr Cheese]

It does have nicer benefits - only we get to go to heaven and enjoy ourselves as he pets us, while the rest are going to hell! Let's see that means out 6 billion, 5 billion are going to hell! How can people be so sick as to believe in such abuse?

thats the thing, very few do...

you are fallign into the trap that assumes the simplistic view is the only valid one...

it isnt

I could easily say Hinduism is about worshipping millions of blue skinned Gods that ride around in flying chariots while having really perveted sex....

I'd be totally incorrect, but if I read the Gita and looked at statues...I could easily draw this conclusion

 

[Mr Cheese]

mm on second thoughts we have calvinism, many christians are calvinists...

which essentially says, God has chosen a few people, the rest are doomed...

so maybe I'm wrong

many people do believe in a world full of filth, dirt, sin and ugliness...
that only a few will escape....

 

[TheKnight]

No you are choosing to follow what is written in a book. Why should your book be right and the muslims be wrong? Or how about Hindus? It's a choice you are making to be a unquestioning slave.

How about the people who followed David Koresh? Or the church people in Utah who kicked out their young teenage boys and sent thier young teenage women as "wiwes" to the church elders? They too were following a book as told by the church elders, were they not?

Or how about the terrorists? were they not following a book also? You are no different from a terrorist?

 

[roddio]

I am sure glad I don't belong to your religion. Once you get away from Abrahamic religions, homosexuality is no longer a sin. it is my belief that those who wrote the bible were homophobes and just decided to spread their hate, mixed with "the word" to try to make everybody hate.

to each his own. No those who were inspired to write the bible wasnt homophobes because the creator loves all but He doesnt like everything we do. To try to make everyone hate is also false because without religion/relationship with God we do enough hating on our own. God bless

 

[roddio]

Weird God you got there.

Thanks and I'll keep Him to. God bless

 

[.lava]

nobody is sinless. it is like a sea of sins we're dealing with. either dive in deeper or try to get out. after all what matters is just the direction you intent, not where you stand.




.

 

[Mr Cheese]

nobody is sinless. it is like a sea of sins we're dealing with. either dive in deeper or try to get out. after all what matters is just the direction you intent, not where you stand.




.

the problem with this doctrine, which I actually have no problem with...

Is it leads to idiocy. Idiocy in that it leads to a view of filth and dirt
that all mankind is dirty, filthy, unworthy and unwashed. That mankind by its very nature is disgusting, sinful, lowly and worthless.

Only through the actions of God, through drinking special bubble gum flavored soda... can we break free of this dirt...

....

The intelligent man, I would argue, understands such sentiment is actually about understanding our failings. being prepared to admit that, on occaison I am wrong. There is nothign wrong with saying,

"Yep, I messed up, I saw this woman, I had lust ful thoughts, in my heart of hearts, I know, this is going against he adoration that I should have for my wife"

admitting you are wrong, and learnign and growing from it, is a good thing.

When it turns into a life led in darkness where one sees nothing but dirt, fitlh and sin...is not really a good thing.

...

Of course many are happy to live as filthy contemptible people "In the eyes of God"

While others take a different view, about repetance, saying sorry, and dealing with ourselves.

....

Then of course there are numerous members of humanity that simply wont say sorry. To them there is no sin, nothign to say sorry for
"So what if I stared at that woman's chest and thought rude thoughts
So what if I hit that child for no apparant reason, I'm the adult here"
etc....

These people have to do what they have t do. they will there is more to life than these actions, thoughts and deeds, one day....or if you have a certain philosophy, one life time they will learn these things....

...

We are all exactly where we are supposed to be....
be it in filth
denial
or growth



In the name of the Great Life!
I worship Life and I praise my lord
Manda-d-Hiia and that great Presence of Glory
Which emanated from Itself.

 

[Mr Cheese]

hello and peace to you all from PEACE!!! in order to understand sin, you must realize that there is no such thing as sin.

no such thing as sin?

:sarcastic so if a man rapes your grandmother...

nothign wrong has ocurred?

 

[Clement_In_Christ]

didn't you read the whole thread i wrote? sin is created by man... in Christ there is no such thing as sin unless man creates it... listen and understand with your spirit not with your flesh.... think about it before you reply back.... yes if a man rape a woman he created sin, in flesh.... but if we were to stop creating sin, then sin will cease to be in existence... we must learn how to ignore the flesh cause it is our enemy and it will deceive us to create more sin for ourselves
this is why we are to learn the wisdom of Christ and feed our spirit with his knowledge...

before you make any decision always ask your self, " am i creating sin by doing this?
remember in the beginning Christ never said "let there be sin"

 

[Autodidact]

Clement: Did you happen to notice that you completely contradicted yourself? You may find an introductory logic class helpful. Just a suggestion.

 

[Kerr]

didn't you read the whole thread i wrote? sin is created by man... in Christ there is no such thing as sin unless man creates it... listen and understand with your spirit not with your flesh.... think about it before you reply back.... yes if a man rape a woman he created sin, in flesh.... but if we were to stop creating sin, then sin will cease to be in existence... we must learn how to ignore the flesh cause it is our enemy and it will deceive us to create more sin for ourselves
this is why we are to learn the wisdom of Christ and feed our spirit with his knowledge...

before you make any decision always ask your self, " am i creating sin by doing this?
remember in the beginning Christ never said "let there be sin"

The "flesh" is not the cause of sin... at last not if you define sin as what is wrong. Would also like to point out that what some people consider morals, such as condemning homosexuality, are sources of evil as well.