I say, yes. People knew YHVH before any document was ever published and people were actually expecting Yoshua before he even appeared.
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If the Bible or any document did not exist of Jesus or G-d would the world even know who they were?
- Thread starter savagewind
- Start date
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
Savagewind; Ah but - that assumes that this "g-d" is indeed THAT one named Yhvh - and it also assumes that Yeshua came FROM that particular "g-d"....
First point - that god Yhvh - is only one such god among many many MANY such EQUAL gods - and it even admits as much in the bible itself - it is Elohim - a race of Beings - and if we trace back far enough they turn out to be flesh and blood creatures just like You and I - these so called gods once walked and talked lived among us - all easy to trace these days...
Second point - Yeshua didnt actually come FROM that god at all - or any of them - and so to say people "expected Him" is a bit misleading really...People - expected SOMETHING - a messenger FROM that god, for that is what the god supposedly said - BUT - when Christ ACTUALLY came - He Himself totally disavows THAT god entirely - strips it of all spiritual authority and REPLACES it with a NEW teaching never before encountered, legitimate Sovereign SPIRIT that is the DIRECT CAUSE of ALL Creation He said...
So therefore the answer would have to be NO - as NOBODY knew the FATHER at all He said -and neither were they expecting HIS radical NEW truth ( but more of the same claims form Yhvh ) - when Christ delivered HIS truth they rejected Him fully in favour of their already established god and its authority -clung to their own power and status - and simply MURDERED Christ as we know...
NOT His "god" - NOT Our Father
Savagewind; Ah but - that assumes that this "g-d" is indeed THAT one named Yhvh - and it also assumes that Yeshua came FROM that particular "g-d"....
First point - that god Yhvh - is only one such god among many many MANY such EQUAL gods - and it even admits as much in the bible itself - it is Elohim - a race of Beings - and if we trace back far enough they turn out to be flesh and blood creatures just like You and I - these so called gods once walked and talked lived among us - all easy to trace these days...
Second point - Yeshua didnt actually come FROM that god at all - or any of them - and so to say people "expected Him" is a bit misleading really...People - expected SOMETHING - a messenger FROM that god, for that is what the god supposedly said - BUT - when Christ ACTUALLY came - He Himself totally disavows THAT god entirely - strips it of all spiritual authority and REPLACES it with a NEW teaching never before encountered, legitimate Sovereign SPIRIT that is the DIRECT CAUSE of ALL Creation He said...
So therefore the answer would have to be NO - as NOBODY knew the FATHER at all He said -and neither were they expecting HIS radical NEW truth ( but more of the same claims form Yhvh ) - when Christ delivered HIS truth they rejected Him fully in favour of their already established god and its authority -clung to their own power and status - and simply MURDERED Christ as we know...
NOT His "god" - NOT Our Father
buddhist
Well-Known Member
How do you know people knew and were expecting them before he allegedly appeared? I mean, were you there, before, and during the appearance?
OK. It is written that some were expecting the Messiah (and I believe it was him).
buddhist
Well-Known Member
Better. How do you know for yourself those documents were written before he allegedly arrived?
Seeing that people are always expecting some kind of savior to finally arrive......
LOL. You got me!
If the Bible or any document did not exist of Jesus or G-d would the world even know who they were?
Well we would probably not know of Jesus. As for God, there would still be the gamut of different ideas.
Well we would probably not know of Jesus. As for God, there would still be the gamut of different ideas.
buddhist
Well-Known Member
Yes, unfortunately most people are seemingly always hoping for a savior (e.g. a god, superhero, government, etc.) instead of working to save themselves.
ENTP Logician
Advocate for Reason
They where not expecting Yoshua but obviously most religions do not have a scriptural basis.
arthra
Baha'i
If the Bible or any document did not exist of Jesus or G-d would the world even know who they were?
First of all the verbal traditions of Jesus existed before any "document" as such... there was a verbal tradition that was passed down ..likely in Aramaic that was later translated into Koine Greek. Would we know who They (God or Jesus?) were without a document? How long was Noah a verbal tradition before it was transcribed in a document?
The question could then be asked how accurate are verbal traditions passed down over a given number of years compared to a document believed to be set down soon after a revelation from a Prophet is known or received? And how much more accurate is a document written or sealed and approved by the Prophet Himself?
First of all the verbal traditions of Jesus existed before any "document" as such... there was a verbal tradition that was passed down ..likely in Aramaic that was later translated into Koine Greek. Would we know who They (God or Jesus?) were without a document? How long was Noah a verbal tradition before it was transcribed in a document?
The question could then be asked how accurate are verbal traditions passed down over a given number of years compared to a document believed to be set down soon after a revelation from a Prophet is known or received? And how much more accurate is a document written or sealed and approved by the Prophet Himself?
We had a Chruch before what would become the NT was ever put down to paper.
PeteC-UK
Active Member
Hi Folks..
George;
Hmm - Im not so sure about that...CHRIST (not jesus a man who is actually a religious fictional character based ON Yeshua Who IS Divine Christ) - but Christ the UNIVERSAL PHENOMENA - is VERY AUTHENTIC - and so inevitably mankind would come to HIS truth even without this religious nonsense "in His name"...
I know that for sure as personally I already knew the RELIGIOUS JESUS version quite well - had been bought up with that half truth - BUT - when Christ showed up directly and indeed personally - it was NOTHING LIKE the religious version at all and indeed it was NOT THROUGH RELIGION that I found His truth - ALONE I found it - and that is actually just as He advised it would be for us all - NO RELIGION at all.. So I know for sure - even with some religious confusion firmly rooted in place - even though I was off on completely the wrong track in my search for Him specifically - STILL - despite that religious handicap, still His truth was revealed DIRECTLY (again just as He said it would be) - and so I have to say that even WITHOUT the religious version - and indeed - ESPECIALLY withouth the religious version - mankind would for sure still know His truth AND the truth of our LEGITIMATE Divine Source (not the god of the bible)...
I tell you (all) frankly and truthfully - spiritual authentic truth is ALWAYS delivered DIRECTLY IN SPIRIT and does not come from books and words of men...Put them down - avoid them all just as He also said - they will ALWAYS mislead us...
Arthra ;
Hmm - actually - the DISCIPLES themselves - plus many others - wrote DIRECT FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS on the road as they journeyed with Him...No need for any verbal tradition surrounding Christ as He taught DIRECTLY - those with ears to hear - and they quite dutifully wrote it all down for us to now debate...Check out the ORIGINAL DISCIPLE GOSPELS themselves to see His ORIGINAL truth and teaching - then go compare it to the fraudulant canon gospels to see why this was done to us...I repeat here as I have stated elsewhere the truth that NO BIBLE CANON was written by ANY disciple or ANYBODY that KNEW disciple or Christ directly - the bible has NO DIRECT TESTIMONY TO OFFER and in fact it is the bible itself that is the least trustworthy source here - the NT is a complete fabricated fraud - they CLAIM it is disciple speaking - have us believe it is disciple speaking - have us believe this is a direct witness to Christ - but look closely and dont let them fool us so easily - see it is NOT the disciples speaking there at all - and look closely at the ORIGINAL gospels that they DID write themselves and we see there the Hebrew "god" is not the Sovereign Father that Christ reveals at all..
But this is the point with the WHOLE HEBREW RELIGION - it is TAKEN FROM A MUCH EARLIER SOURCE IN SUMER - it is not eventhe ORIGINAL truth at all but merely a plaigerised set of narratives that were already known as real world events literally THOUSANDS of years BEFORE any Hebrew nation ever even existed !!
What we think of as early VERBAL componants - turn out to be fully based on HARD EVIDENCE - clay tablets that actually pre date the Hebrews as said but which contain the ENTIRE HEBREW NARRATIVE already...Like literally EVERY foundational Hebrew step - already recorded FIRST in Sumer - NO oral tradtion - but a direct plaigerising of these much earlier real world events recorded directly by the Sumerians originally...Noah mentioned above for example - FIRST told and recorded in SUMER as said thousands of years BEFORE any of this bible Hebrew malarky....ALL of the narrative - first recorded in Sumer thousands of years BEFORE this Hebrew bible malarky...Let it sink in deep Folks - and see for sure we have been greatly misled in our spiritual truth by that "god" and its agents...
Well regarding the bible it was NOT a verbal tradition - but a retelling of an already established narrative, changed somewhat after the great flood (real world event) when most of mankind AND OUR KNOWLEDGE was lost....So if we now want that ORIGINAL truth then the place to look IS SUMER and those clay tablets that tell us of any of this FIRST and from which the Hebrew religion will emerge much MUCH later.....
And regarding the NEW testamanat part - well - NO "prophet" is speaking DIRECTLY there at all - as NO DISCIPLE IS WRITING THOSE BOOKS !!! In fact the religon itself took drastiv measures ot eradictae the ORIGINAL disciple tomes - banned them all as "herasy" and literally MANUFACTURED NEW ONES to give you (all) in their place...Today, all accepted religious truth comes from those FRAUDULANT gospels and the deceipt is all but complete - original truth - original teaching DIRECT form Christ HAS been forbidden to you (all) - replaced by bogus doctrines that are designed to keep you AWAY from the true Divine that Christ alone teaches us of, and enmeshed firmly still in that lesser "god" we call Yhvh - that one is NOT Our Father and there is no legitimate truth to its claims of superiority - just one so called god among countless other so called gods and not a whiff of true Divinity among any of them......I remind you - Christ told the Jews this directly and they MURDERED HIM to silence the threat to their "god" - that one is NOT Our Father....
George;
Hmm - Im not so sure about that...CHRIST (not jesus a man who is actually a religious fictional character based ON Yeshua Who IS Divine Christ) - but Christ the UNIVERSAL PHENOMENA - is VERY AUTHENTIC - and so inevitably mankind would come to HIS truth even without this religious nonsense "in His name"...
I know that for sure as personally I already knew the RELIGIOUS JESUS version quite well - had been bought up with that half truth - BUT - when Christ showed up directly and indeed personally - it was NOTHING LIKE the religious version at all and indeed it was NOT THROUGH RELIGION that I found His truth - ALONE I found it - and that is actually just as He advised it would be for us all - NO RELIGION at all.. So I know for sure - even with some religious confusion firmly rooted in place - even though I was off on completely the wrong track in my search for Him specifically - STILL - despite that religious handicap, still His truth was revealed DIRECTLY (again just as He said it would be) - and so I have to say that even WITHOUT the religious version - and indeed - ESPECIALLY withouth the religious version - mankind would for sure still know His truth AND the truth of our LEGITIMATE Divine Source (not the god of the bible)...
I tell you (all) frankly and truthfully - spiritual authentic truth is ALWAYS delivered DIRECTLY IN SPIRIT and does not come from books and words of men...Put them down - avoid them all just as He also said - they will ALWAYS mislead us...
Arthra ;
Hmm - actually - the DISCIPLES themselves - plus many others - wrote DIRECT FIRST HAND ACCOUNTS on the road as they journeyed with Him...No need for any verbal tradition surrounding Christ as He taught DIRECTLY - those with ears to hear - and they quite dutifully wrote it all down for us to now debate...Check out the ORIGINAL DISCIPLE GOSPELS themselves to see His ORIGINAL truth and teaching - then go compare it to the fraudulant canon gospels to see why this was done to us...I repeat here as I have stated elsewhere the truth that NO BIBLE CANON was written by ANY disciple or ANYBODY that KNEW disciple or Christ directly - the bible has NO DIRECT TESTIMONY TO OFFER and in fact it is the bible itself that is the least trustworthy source here - the NT is a complete fabricated fraud - they CLAIM it is disciple speaking - have us believe it is disciple speaking - have us believe this is a direct witness to Christ - but look closely and dont let them fool us so easily - see it is NOT the disciples speaking there at all - and look closely at the ORIGINAL gospels that they DID write themselves and we see there the Hebrew "god" is not the Sovereign Father that Christ reveals at all..
But this is the point with the WHOLE HEBREW RELIGION - it is TAKEN FROM A MUCH EARLIER SOURCE IN SUMER - it is not eventhe ORIGINAL truth at all but merely a plaigerised set of narratives that were already known as real world events literally THOUSANDS of years BEFORE any Hebrew nation ever even existed !!
What we think of as early VERBAL componants - turn out to be fully based on HARD EVIDENCE - clay tablets that actually pre date the Hebrews as said but which contain the ENTIRE HEBREW NARRATIVE already...Like literally EVERY foundational Hebrew step - already recorded FIRST in Sumer - NO oral tradtion - but a direct plaigerising of these much earlier real world events recorded directly by the Sumerians originally...Noah mentioned above for example - FIRST told and recorded in SUMER as said thousands of years BEFORE any of this bible Hebrew malarky....ALL of the narrative - first recorded in Sumer thousands of years BEFORE this Hebrew bible malarky...Let it sink in deep Folks - and see for sure we have been greatly misled in our spiritual truth by that "god" and its agents...
Well regarding the bible it was NOT a verbal tradition - but a retelling of an already established narrative, changed somewhat after the great flood (real world event) when most of mankind AND OUR KNOWLEDGE was lost....So if we now want that ORIGINAL truth then the place to look IS SUMER and those clay tablets that tell us of any of this FIRST and from which the Hebrew religion will emerge much MUCH later.....
And regarding the NEW testamanat part - well - NO "prophet" is speaking DIRECTLY there at all - as NO DISCIPLE IS WRITING THOSE BOOKS !!! In fact the religon itself took drastiv measures ot eradictae the ORIGINAL disciple tomes - banned them all as "herasy" and literally MANUFACTURED NEW ONES to give you (all) in their place...Today, all accepted religious truth comes from those FRAUDULANT gospels and the deceipt is all but complete - original truth - original teaching DIRECT form Christ HAS been forbidden to you (all) - replaced by bogus doctrines that are designed to keep you AWAY from the true Divine that Christ alone teaches us of, and enmeshed firmly still in that lesser "god" we call Yhvh - that one is NOT Our Father and there is no legitimate truth to its claims of superiority - just one so called god among countless other so called gods and not a whiff of true Divinity among any of them......I remind you - Christ told the Jews this directly and they MURDERED HIM to silence the threat to their "god" - that one is NOT Our Father....
Segev Moran
Well-Known Member
You say all that based on what? Please exclude scriptures as the post asks if there were no scriptures...
Yoshua means, salvation by the will of God. They were expecting that.
By the way, the title of the thread is what someone else on the forum said.
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arthra
Baha'i
Maybe it would be useful for those following this thread to review some of the findings of the Jesus Seminar at
http://www.westarinstitute.org/projects/the-jesus-seminar/jesus-seminar-phase-1-sayings-of-jesus/
which to me reinforces the belief that while some of the original teachings of Jesus were contained in the Gospel narrative they were verbally transmitted and later set to writing:
Modern scholars have concluded that the Canonical Gospels went through four stages in their formation:
http://www.westarinstitute.org/projects/the-jesus-seminar/jesus-seminar-phase-1-sayings-of-jesus/
which to me reinforces the belief that while some of the original teachings of Jesus were contained in the Gospel narrative they were verbally transmitted and later set to writing:
Modern scholars have concluded that the Canonical Gospels went through four stages in their formation:
- The first stage was oral, and included various stories about Jesus such as healing the sick, or debating with opponents, as well as parables and teachings.
- In the second stage, the oral traditions began to be written down[by whom?] in collections (collections of miracles, collections of sayings, etc.), while the oral traditions continued to circulate
- In the third stage, early Christians began combining the written collections and oral traditions into what might be called "proto-gospels" – hence Luke's reference to the existence of "many" earlier narratives about Jesus
- In the fourth stage, the authors of our four Gospels drew on these proto-gospels, collections, and still-circulating oral traditions to produce the gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.[1]