If the Jewish Messiah has already come….

[Flankerl]

Caiaphas was the chief priest of the Jews

Meanwhile in reality he was appointed by Prefect Valerius Gratus.

Hint: That's not a Jewish name.

and considered to be the most learned

[citation_needed]

He interogated Jesus and had no hesitation in rejecting His Messianic Claims and condemning the Christ to death.

Too bad we have no second source on all that.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Meanwhile in reality he was appointed by Prefect Valerius Gratus.

Hint: That's not a Jewish name.




[citation_needed]




Too bad we have no second source on all that.

Caiaphas - Wikipedia

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:57-67 - New International Version

 

[roger1440]

Caiaphas was the chief priest of the Jews and considered to be the most learned. He interogated Jesus and had no hesitation in rejecting His Messianic Claims and condemning the Christ to death. The Jews expected their promised one to come as a ruler like King David admidst miraculous signs to free them from the oppression of the Romans.

Don’t you find it a little odd, when Jesus comes to Jerusalem the Jews throw a parade for him, then less than a week later everyone wants him dead? What’s up with that? If all he did was claim to be the Messiah why didn’t the Jewish and/or Roman authorities write him off as a nut case and leave it as that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Don’t you find it a little odd, when Jesus comes to Jerusalem the Jews throw a parade for him, then less than a week later everyone wants him dead? What’s up with that? If all he did was claim to be the Messiah why didn’t the Jewish and/or Roman authorities write him off as a nut case and leave it as that?

Not at all.

Jesus made claims that angered the Jewish authories and religious leaders. He had enormous influence on the hearts and minds of many he came in contact with. He was taking the Jewish people in a new direction. The Pharisees felt threatened and used their power to turn many against Him.

Jesus knew what He was doing, what would happen and indicated that he had not come to bring peace but a sword.

What's your understanding for the change?

 

[wizanda]

when Jesus comes to Jerusalem the Jews throw a parade for him, then less than a week later everyone wants him dead?

The people accepted him (Zechariah 11:11), the leaders did not (Zechariah 11:8).... This was all prophesied to the letter in multiple places.

His influence caused massive occupy style rebellion against Rome, where people were giving up paying taxes, and giving up wealth......

Thus in John it says, the Sanhedrin put him to death 'for the nation', as he was disrupting the peace treaty they had with Rome.

The other side of it, is as the parable of the Wicked Husbandmen implies, Matthew 23, and Mark 7, the Pharisees (priests) had been murdering prophets as atoning sacrifices for sometime; so this was the final straw, would they murder their own Messiah, and if so, proving they were no longer worthy to be called a chosen people.

Thus by his death the Abrahmic covenant was broken, as specified in Zechariah 11; thus Israel/Judah was divorced, and the brotherhood broken.

As for the Messiah coming, how can he when the world doesn't even recognize these very basic points...

As saying, why I've been sent to inform everyone; yet don't worry about me, it isn't like I've come before the Tribulation, in the hopes people might listen.

 

[roger1440]

Not at all.

Jesus made claims that angered the Jewish authories and religious leaders. He had enormous influence on the hearts and minds of many he came in contact with. He was taking the Jewish people in a new direction. The Pharisees felt threatened and used their power to turn many against Him.

Jesus knew what He was doing, what would happen and indicated that he had not come to bring peace but a sword.

What's your understanding for the change?

49 But one of them, named Caiaphas, who was high priest that year, said to them, “You know nothing at all! 50 You do not realize that it is better for you that one man die for the people than that the whole nation perish.” (John John 11:49-50)

Why do you think he said that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

If the Jewish Messiah has already come why hasn’t he made himself known?

It would seem clear from Caiaphas' response in the book of John that the Jewish Messiah had made Himself known. What can we learn? Clearly being learned in a worldly sense can be a mighty barrier between the seeker of truth and what he desires. Caiaphas clearly failed to recognise Jesus as the Promised One whereas Peter an unlearned fisherman rose to exalted heights spiritually and positively influenced the course of history.

 

[roger1440]

If the Jewish Messiah has already come why hasn’t he made himself known?

It would seem clear from Caiaphas' response in the book of John that the Jewish Messiah had made Himself known. What can we learn? Clearly being learned in a worldly sense can be a mighty barrier between the seeker of truth and what he desires. Caiaphas clearly failed to recognise Jesus as the Promised One whereas Peter an unlearned fisherman rose to exalted heights spiritually and positively influenced the course of history.

So words in a book makes it true. You are implying we should believe each and everything that has been ever written.

 

[roger1440]

From what I have been reading on this thread, Jesus is the Messiah not because he had actually done anything but because people have written about him.

 

[Dawnofhope]

So words in a book makes it true. You are implying we should believe each and everything that has been ever written.

Of course not. Our world view needs to take into account both science and world history. However I do hold the sacred writings of the Abrahamic Faiths in high regard. Clearly much of what is written in these texts has intrinsic spiritual meanings and is not to be taken literally.

 

[roger1440]

Of course not. Our world view needs to take into account both science and world history. However I do hold the sacred writings of the Abrahamic Faiths in high regard. Clearly much of what is written in these texts has intrinsic spiritual meanings and is not to be taken literally.

Is Jesus "literally" the Messiah or not? This is not a trick question. If he is, explain. Give some proof.

 

[Dawnofhope]

From what I have been reading on this thread, Jesus is the Messiah not because he had actually done anything but because people have written about him.

He clearly has does something otherwise people wouldn't have written about him. The written word seems like an important part of history.

 

[wizanda]

From what I have been reading on this thread, Jesus is the Messiah not because he had actually done anything

Maybe I'm just on ignore then, as I've explained some of the things done to fulfill preMessianic age prophecies.... Could go into detail of how these have taken affect globally.

Is Jesus "literally" the Messiah or not?

Yeshua said the Messiah is to come in a future context; so we can't answer that, until the Messianic age, else it would only be based on fulfillment of prophecies.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Is Jesus "literally" the Messiah or not? This is not a trick question. If he is, explain. Give some proof.

The main proofs are the life and teachings of the Messiah and the influence he has on His followers and humanity. A good tree bears good fruit....

The other proofs lie in prophecy.

 

[Flankerl]

Caiaphas - Wikipedia

Bible Gateway passage: Matthew 26:57-67 - New International Version

That's not how Forums work. Have you tried "arguments"? For example prove that he wasn't installed by the Roman Prefect?

Or that he was the "most learned man"?


Also you can't quote your NT in support for anything if you engage non-Christians. I mean sure, you can but it has no real effect.

The Pharisees felt threatened

And? They weren't in power. Not even in religious matters. The Temple was overseen by the Sadducees.

Jesus knew what He was doing, what would happen and indicated that he had not come to bring peace but a sword.

But that's exactly what we wanted. Usually Christians claim that we rejected him because he wasn't going to lead us against the Romans.

You guys really gotta make up your mind about it.

It would seem clear from Caiaphas' response in the book of John that the Jewish Messiah had made Himself known

Then your Messianic Age really sucks.
I'd rather have a regular Age back, would be far less bloody.

the Pharisees (priests)

This is what Christians actually believe.

 

[roger1440]

Maybe I'm just on ignore then, as I've explained some of the things done to fulfill preMessianic age prophecies.... Could go into detail of how these have taken affect globally.

Yeshua said the Messiah is to come in a future context; so we can't answer that, until the Messianic age, else it would only be based on fulfillment of prophecies.

I don’t have anyone on ignore. Where is the evidence Jesus is the Messiah? If I walk out my door at this very moment in time what evidence would I see or any other people see?

 

[wizanda]

Where is the evidence Jesus is the Messiah?

Within the Tanakh, by the multiple prophecy fulfillments.... Physical proof is the fact the Mother of all Harlots (Roman Catholic Christianity) exists, and has been established by the city built on bloodshed (Habakkuk 2).

Yeshua's prophecies, that the world will be deceived by those that come after using the term "I Am" has happened (Luke 21:8), by the false gospel of John, and by Paul.

Yet as stating previously, Yeshua wasn't the Messiah back then, and told people it would happen in the future context....

It is the false texts of John, Paul and Simon the stone (petros) which have confused everyone, by making him into the Messiah before his time.

If I walk out my door at this very moment in time what evidence would I see or any other people see?

There are churches on every corner following the Anti-Christ teachings, and the world doesn't recognize it has been deceived....

It's nearly Christmas, which is totally opposed to Yeshua's teachings of giving up wealth.

All these things prove he fulfilled the Messianic prophecies, as the world has become more evil, as Daniel said would happen right until the end, because of the Messiah.

This is what Christians actually believe.

Yes, as Yeshua stated, and as the prophets related, that the priests were setting traps for them....

Now fair enough, if we look at the official records of how many prophets were murdered, it isn't all of them, and it isn't like it was done regularly...

Yet the fact it happened in the slightest, and the oral tradition exists to justify them as being sin offerings, "the death of the righteous can atone for the sins of that generation", is enough evidence to remove the inheritance from the Jews, with Yeshua's death being the divorce decree (Zechariah 11).

As for Christians believing that, they don't have a clue that it is Anti-Christ teachings; that is why they follow the same Pharisaic concepts put forth by John, and Paul, that Yeshua came to die for people's sins....This is where Revelation 3:9 says the Christians follow the synagogue of satan (Pharisees).

 

[roger1440]

All these things prove he fulfilled the Messianic prophecies, as the world has become more evil, as Daniel said would happen right until the end, because of the Messiah.

How does a person prove the world is more evil?

 

[wizanda]

How does a person prove the world is more evil?

By making them follow darkness as light, and light as dark... To see who is really a demon, by what they accept as morally right, when it is blatantly wrong.

 

[Dawnofhope]

That's not how Forums work. Have you tried "arguments"? For example prove that he wasn't installed by the Roman Prefect?

Presumably despite being appointed by Roman prefect Valerius Gratus the appointment was supported by Jewish leaders. I appreciate historic evidence outside the gospels is scant.

Or that he was the "most learned man"?

To be appointed Jewish high preist would require recognised knowledge and understanding of the Talmud. I'm happy to hear arguments to the contrary and what your perspective is.


Also you can't quote your NT in support for anything if you engage non-Christians. I mean sure, you can but it has no real effect.

The Torah is central to Jewish understanding and informs beliefs about history, sacred law, and a Jewish world view. The Gospels in similar manner a central to a Christain world view, the Quran for Muslims, and the Kitab-i-Aqdas for Bahais. There's a diversity of views on RF that ranges from viewing some or all of these texts as sacred on one hand, to misleading at best, and an opiate to the masses at worst. I accept all of that.


And? They weren't in power. Not even in religious matters. The Temple was overseen by the Sadducees.

Its interesting and informative to have a Jewish perspective on the historical setting that led to the birth of Christianity.



But that's exactly what we wanted. Usually Christians claim that we rejected him because he wasn't going to lead us against the Romans.

You guys really gotta make up your mind about it.

These comments assume that Christians have a unified perspective and that I'm a Christian. You may want to rethink both assumptions.


Then your Messianic Age really sucks.
I'd rather have a regular Age back, would be far less bloody.

I agree the last 2,000 or so years since the birth of Christ have been full of of tribulations. However was the era from Moses to Jesus much better? I'm presuming you are familiar with the prophet Isaiah. Within his writings contains a vision for world peace. I agree that this is not the Christian era but one that follows.