If the new testament is the most reliable ancient text

[chamberlain]

If the new testament is the most reliable ancient text then why do people say Jesus is still dead?
What do people think?

 

[Pah]

If the new testament is the most reliable ancient text then why do people say Jesus is still dead?
What do people think?

Reliable in the sense that it is copied correctly?
Reliable in that man and Early Christian politics documented the choices they made in establishing what you have today?


Because it is still just a story with no external justification.

 

[chamberlain]

"Because it is still just a story with no external justification."

What about the writings of josephus the pharisee and historian?

 

[Pah]

"Because it is still just a story with no external justification."

What about the writings of josephus the pharisee and historian?

Josephus spoke of the sect of Christianity but not of Christ as did some other contemporaries in personal letters and writings. I think there were about 6 more but they are considered very minor in historical value or even forgeries by scholarship today.

 

[Orthodox]

Josephus spoke of the sect of Christianity but not of Christ as did some other contemporaries in personal letters and writings. I think there were about 6 more but they are considered very minor in value or even forgeries by scholarship today

Josephus did speak about Christ.

Part of what he said was, from memory, "at this time there was a sorcerer called Jesus of Nazareth who led many astray".

This is jumped on by Christians because instead of calling Jesus a faker of miracles (like he did call a number of fake messiahs before hand), Josephus calleds him a sorcerer indicating that he did some supernatural things even though the source of them was debated in Jewish society.

orthodox

 

[Pah]

Josephus spoke of the sect of Christianity but not of Christ as did some other contemporaries in personal letters and writings. I think there were about 6 more but they are considered very minor in value or even forgeries by scholarship today

Josephus did speak about Christ.

Part of what he said was, from memory, "at this time there was a sorcerer called Jesus of Nazareth who led many astray".

This is jumped on by Christians because instead of calling Jesus a faker of miracles (like he did call a number of fake messiahs before hand), Josephus calleds him a sorcerer indicating that he did some supernatural things even though the source of them was debated in Jewish society.

orthodox

I've never seen that quote before - do you have a reference?

I know of the quote in Antquites that is in dispute and I'm familiar with the James passage which is about the brother of Jesus (this later may have been the inspiration for the discredited "bones box")

 

[quick]

If the new testament is the most reliable ancient text then why do people say Jesus is still dead?
What do people think?

See this text:

1 Corinthians 15


The Fact of Christ's Resurrection

"1 Now (1) I make known to you, brethren, the (2) gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, (3) in which also you stand,
2 by which also you are saved, (4) if you hold fast the word which I preached to you, (5) unless you believed in vain.
3 For (6) I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died (7) for our sins (8) according to the Scriptures,
4 and that He was buried, and that He was (9) raised on the third day (10) according to the Scriptures,
5 and that (11) He appeared to (12) Cephas, then (13) to the twelve.
6 After that He appeared to more than five hundred brethren at one time, most of whom remain until now, but some (14) have fallen asleep;
7 then He appeared to (15) James, then to (16) all the apostles;
8 and last of all, as to one untimely born, (17) He appeared to me also.
9 For I am (18) the least of the apostles, and not fit to be called an apostle, because I (19) persecuted the church of God.
10 But by (20) the grace of God I am what I am, and His grace toward me did not prove vain; but I (21) labored even more than all of them, yet (22) not I, but the grace of God with me.
11 Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.
12 Now if Christ is preached, that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there (23) is no resurrection of the dead?
13 But if there is no resurrection of the dead, not even Christ has been raised;
14 and (24) if Christ has not been raised, then our preaching is vain, your faith also is vain.
15 Moreover we are even found to be false witnesses of God, because we testified against God that He (25) raised [1] Christ, whom He did not raise, if in fact the dead are not raised.
16 For if the dead are not raised, not even Christ has been raised;
17 and if Christ has not been raised, your faith is worthless; (26) you are still in your sins.
18 Then those also who (27) have fallen asleep in Christ have perished.
19 If we have hoped in Christ in this life only, we are (28) of all men most to be pitied. "

This is Paul writing to the church in Corinth. Names are named. Facts are put forward. Many people would have seen this letter. Anyone living at the time could have talked to Cephas, the Twelve, James, and other apostles. Even if you believe these folks were hallucinating, Paul says 500 people saw him after his resurrection at the same time. There are no group hallucinations. Checking with these folks would have been easily done and if Paul were lying, his claims could have been easily refuted at the time. There is no evidence of this occurring, even among Jewish writings.

The folks with the most to gain by denying Christ's resurrection were the Jewish leaders who had him crucified, and they did everything to make sure his body could not be stolen and none of his followers could make such a claim. Here are the key passages from Matthew:

Matthew 27

The Burial of Jesus

"57As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. 58Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. 59Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, 60and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away. 61Mary Magdalene and the other Mary were sitting there opposite the tomb.

The Guard at the Tomb

62The next day, the one after Preparation Day, the chief priests and the Pharisees went to Pilate. 63"Sir," they said, "we remember that while he was still alive that deceiver said, 'After three days I will rise again.' 64So give the order for the tomb to be made secure until the third day. Otherwise, his disciples may come and steal the body and tell the people that he has been raised from the dead. This last deception will be worse than the first."
65"Take a guard," Pilate answered. "Go, make the tomb as secure as you know how." 66So they went and made the tomb secure by putting a seal on the stone and posting the guard. "


Matthew 28

The Resurrection

"1After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week, Mary Magdalene and the other Mary went to look at the tomb.
2There was a violent earthquake, for an angel of the Lord came down from heaven and, going to the tomb, rolled back the stone and sat on it. 3His appearance was like lightning, and his clothes were white as snow. 4The guards were so afraid of him that they shook and became like dead men.
5The angel said to the women, "Do not be afraid, for I know that you are looking for Jesus, who was crucified. 6He is not here; he has risen, just as he said. Come and see the place where he lay. 7Then go quickly and tell his disciples: 'He has risen from the dead and is going ahead of you into Galilee. There you will see him.' Now I have told you."
8So the women hurried away from the tomb, afraid yet filled with joy, and ran to tell his disciples. 9Suddenly Jesus met them. "Greetings," he said. They came to him, clasped his feet and worshiped him. 10Then Jesus said to them, "Do not be afraid. Go and tell my brothers to go to Galilee; there they will see me."

The Guards' Report

11While the women were on their way, some of the guards went into the city and reported to the chief priests everything that had happened. 12When the chief priests had met with the elders and devised a plan, they gave the soldiers a large sum of money, 13telling them, "You are to say, 'His disciples came during the night and stole him away while we were asleep.' 14If this report gets to the governor, we will satisfy him and keep you out of trouble." 15So the soldiers took the money and did as they were instructed. And this story has been widely circulated among the Jews to this very day. "

If you notice, the chief priests (the San Headrin) paid the tomb guards to spread the rumor of Christ's body being stolen, so is it any wonder the rumor persists? This rumor persists despite a huge stone being in front fo the grave, despite the imprimatur of the Roman governor on it, despite the guard, and despite the fact that only women--not big, strong men--came to see the area from the time the stone was placed until after the resurrection occurred.

These texts, read together, provide strong proof for the resurrection and why alternative explanations persist. However, Paul's excerpt in Corinthians is simply not the kind of writing a liar would make--too many facts, too many other people involved, and too easy to contradict by checking behind his facts.

 

[Pah]

If the new testament is the most reliable ancient text then why do people say Jesus is still dead?
What do people think?

See this text:

1 Corinthians 15


Matthew 27

Matthew 28

These texts, read together, provide strong proof for the resurrection and why alternative explanations persist. However, Paul's excerpt in Corinthians is simply not the kind of writing a liar would make--too many facts, too many other people involved, and too easy to contradict by checking behind his facts.

I'm sorry quick. Those are a product of circular reasoning and in no way offer proof.

 

[Pah]

Josephus did speak about Christ.

Part of what he said was, from memory, "at this time there was a sorcerer called Jesus of Nazareth who led many astray".

This is jumped on by Christians because instead of calling Jesus a faker of miracles (like he did call a number of fake messiahs before hand), Josephus calleds him a sorcerer indicating that he did some supernatural things even though the source of them was debated in Jewish society.

orthodox

I searched the online edition of Josephus works translated by William Whiston.

In the following:
Antiquities of the Jews (Book XV through Book XX)
War of the Jews (Book I through Book VII)
The Life of Flavius Josephus - Autobiography
Josephus Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades
Flavius Josephus Against Apion (Book I and Book II)

There was no appearence of the word "sorcerer".

The quote about James, the brother of Jesus who was called Christ is in Chapter 9 of Book XX, Antiquities

This is the translation provided by Whiston
CHAPTER 3. Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

...
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
...

(9) A.D. 33, April 3.

Another translation

Tr. I. H. Feldman, Loeb Classical Library, vol. 9, pp. 49ff.
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

Same text, in a less complementary modern scholarly reconstruction.
R. Eisler, The Messiah Jesus, (tr. A. H. Krappe), 1931, p. 61. Quoted from the Loeb Classical Library , vol. 9, p. 48.

Now about this time arose an occasion for new disturbances, a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man, who was the most monstrous of men, whom his disciples call a son of God, as having done wonders such as no man has ever done.... He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight.... And he seduced many Jews and many also of the Greek nation, and was regarded by them as the Messiah.... And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold -- these and ten thousand other wonderful things -- concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called 'Messianists' after him is not extinct.

The disputed text:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonders, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew many after him both of the jews and the gentiles. He was the christ. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and then thousand other wonderful things about him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/josephus-jesus.html

It is worth noting that in his earlier work, The Jewish War, written shortly after the revolt under the auspices of the Emperor Vespasian, he mentioned neither Jesus, nor John the Baptist, nor James, while in Antiquities, written in the early 90s C.E., he mentions all three. For an excellent discussion of this text see John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (Doubleday, 1991), Vol I, pp. 57-88.

 

[Pah]

Josephus did speak about Christ.

Part of what he said was, from memory, "at this time there was a sorcerer called Jesus of Nazareth who led many astray".

This is jumped on by Christians because instead of calling Jesus a faker of miracles (like he did call a number of fake messiahs before hand), Josephus calleds him a sorcerer indicating that he did some supernatural things even though the source of them was debated in Jewish society.

orthodox

I searched the online edition of Josephus works translated by William Whiston.

In the following:
Antiquities of the Jews (Book XV through Book XX)
War of the Jews (Book I through Book VII)
The Life of Flavius Josephus - Autobiography
Josephus Discourse to the Greeks concerning Hades
Flavius Josephus Against Apion (Book I and Book II)

There was no appearence of the word "sorcerer".

The quote about James, the brother of Jesus who was called Christ is in Chapter 9 of Book XX, Antiquities

This is the translation provided by Whiston
CHAPTER 3. Antiquities of the Jews, Book XVIII

SEDITION OF THE JEWS AGAINST PONTIUS PILATE. CONCERNING CHRIST, AND WHAT BEFELL PAULINA AND THE JEWS AT ROME,

...
3. Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man, if it be lawful to call him a man; for he was a doer of wonderful works, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew over to him both many of the Jews and many of the Gentiles. He was [the] Christ. And when Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men amongst us, had condemned him to the cross, (9) those that loved him at the first did not forsake him; for he appeared to them alive again the third day; as the divine prophets had foretold these and ten thousand other wonderful things concerning him. And the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day.
...

(9) A.D. 33, April 3.

Another translation

Tr. I. H. Feldman, Loeb Classical Library, vol. 9, pp. 49ff.
About this time there lived Jesus, a wise man if indeed one ought to call him a man. For he was one who wrought surprising feats and was a teacher of such people as accept the truth gladly. He won over many Jews and many of the Greeks. He was the Messiah. When Pilate, upon hearing him accused by men of the highest standing among us, had condemned him to be crucified, those who had in the first place come to love him did not cease. On the third day he appeared to them restored to life. For the prophets of God had prophesied these and myriads of other marvellous things about him. And the tribe of the Christians, so called after him, has still up to now, not disappeared.

Same text, in a less complementary modern scholarly reconstruction.
R. Eisler, The Messiah Jesus, (tr. A. H. Krappe), 1931, p. 61. Quoted from the Loeb Classical Library , vol. 9, p. 48.

Now about this time arose an occasion for new disturbances, a certain Jesus, a wizard of a man, if indeed he may be called a man, who was the most monstrous of men, whom his disciples call a son of God, as having done wonders such as no man has ever done.... He was in fact a teacher of astonishing tricks to such men as accept the abnormal with delight.... And he seduced many Jews and many also of the Greek nation, and was regarded by them as the Messiah.... And when, on the indictment of the principal men among us, Pilate had sentenced him to the cross, still those who before had admired him did not cease to rave. For it seemed to them that having been dead for three days, he had appeared to them alive again, as the divinely-inspired prophets had foretold -- these and ten thousand other wonderful things -- concerning him. And even now the race of those who are called 'Messianists' after him is not extinct.

The disputed text:

Now there was about this time Jesus, a wise man if it be lawful to call him a man, for he was a doer of wonders, a teacher of such men as receive the truth with pleasure. He drew many after him both of the jews and the gentiles. He was the christ. When Pilate, at the suggestion of the principal men among us, had condemned him to the cross, those that loved him at the first did not forsake him, for he appeared to them alive again the third day, as the divine prophets had foretold these and then thousand other wonderful things about him, and the tribe of Christians, so named from him, are not extinct at this day (Antiquities 18:63-64).

http://www.religiousstudies.uncc.edu/jdtabor/josephus-jesus.html

It is worth noting that in his earlier work, The Jewish War, written shortly after the revolt under the auspices of the Emperor Vespasian, he mentioned neither Jesus, nor John the Baptist, nor James, while in Antiquities, written in the early 90s C.E., he mentions all three. For an excellent discussion of this text see John Meier, A Marginal Jew: Rethinking the Historical Jesus (Doubleday, 1991), Vol I, pp. 57-88.

 

[quick]

If the new testament is the most reliable ancient text then why do people say Jesus is still dead?
What do people think?

See this text:

1 Corinthians 15


Matthew 27

Matthew 28

These texts, read together, provide strong proof for the resurrection and why alternative explanations persist. However, Paul's excerpt in Corinthians is simply not the kind of writing a liar would make--too many facts, too many other people involved, and too easy to contradict by checking behind his facts.

I'm sorry quick. Those are a product of circular reasoning and in no way offer proof.

To those dead in sin, I guess it would not offer much proof.

However, Paul gives much detail that a skeptic living at the time could have verified. A liar would typically not have made such verification--or refutation--so easy. It is, of course, not provable in the same way you can prove your hand is attached to your arm--so long as you have faith that your senses are giving you accurate reports....

 

[Pah]

Quick,
"To those dead in sin, I guess it would not offer much proof."

It is logic that gives proof and an understanding of the facts.

When you try to use the Bible as proof that the Bible is true, then you fail logically, by circular reasoning It is also that the answer is in he premise.

Yopu are saying the Bible is true because the Bible says it is.

 

[Orthodox]

Pah,

Remember I did say that the quote was from memory! Yes the quote you have put forward is the one I had thought of (i went a checked afterwards). It says sorceror in the version I originally read, also note that it said wizard in one of yours which is the same thing.

There were also 5 other major non-christian recorders of Christ and christians.

Tacitus - said that Christ was put to death by Pilate.
Lucian or Samosata - commented ion Jesus's death and the Christian persistence in following him.
Pliny the younger - Chrisitians in general.
Thallus - Talks of the strange darkness that covered the land during the crusifiction.
Phlegon- "mentions the eclipse of the sun during the full moon - meant to be impossible". (dave benson)

orthodox

 

[Orthodox]

oh and also, Tacitus, Pliny phlegon are all considered VERY HIGHLY REPUTABLE. The others have some doubt but not anything substatiated.
orthodox

 

[Orthodox]

oh and also, Tacitus, Pliny phlegon are all considered VERY HIGHLY REPUTABLE. The others have some doubt but not anything substatiated.
orthodox

 

[Pah]

Pah,

Remember I did say that the quote was from memory! Yes the quote you have put forward is the one I had thought of (i went a checked afterwards). It says sorceror in the version I originally read, also note that it said wizard in one of yours which is the same thing.

Not a problem There are undoubtably translations that used sorcerer. But the one I found with wizard is not one that Christianity would indorse I also learned (wish I had marked it) that Josephus was not kind to the "messiahs" that appeared from time to time This might, might be more in tune with how Josephus really felt. The astonishing thing to me the number of different translation which seem to track the one marked as disputed.

There were also 5 other major non-christian recorders of Christ and christians.

Tacitus - said that Christ was put to death by Pilate.
Lucian or Samosata - commented ion Jesus's death and the Christian persistence in following him.
Pliny the younger - Chrisitians in general.
Thallus - Talks of the strange darkness that covered the land during the crusifiction.
Phlegon- "mentions the eclipse of the sun during the full moon - meant to be impossible". (dave benson)

orthodox

http://www.tertullian.org/rpearse/lucian/peregrinus.htm
From an intorduction to The Passing of Perfeginus, by Lucian of Samostata"

Lucian believes himself to be exposing a sham, whose zeal was not at all for truth but only for applause and renown.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/maps/primary/pliny.html

I seems you are right about Pliny just talking about Christians but not Christ

Intoduction to a letter from from Pliny the Ypounger to Empeor Trajan

In the year 112, Pliny the Younger was faced with a dilemma. He was the governor in the Roman province of Bithynia (modern day Turkey) when a number of Christians were brought into his court. It is unclear what the initial charges are, but he ultimately decided, despite the fact that the Christians seemed generally harmless to him, that he should execute them if they refused to recant their faith. Because he is unsure as to whether he can kill them legally for no other crime than their faith, he writes to his friend the Emperor for advice. The Emperor replies that he did the right thing in excecuting them, but advises him not to seek out Christians for prosecution.

http://myweb.tiscali.co.uk/praeternatural/pagan prophecies of coming of christ.htm

Apparently we don't have the words of Thallus

Whats more very early evidence of the crucifixion comes from two 1st century pagan historians. Firstly Thallus a Samaritan born historian who writing just 19 years after Our Lord’s ascension in 52AD recorded the crucifixion of Our Lord in an attempt to prove that the darkness that enveloped the world at the time was a product of a solar eclipse. Even though his works have been lost to history we know this because the 3rd Century Julius Africanus cites his work in defense that the darkness was miraculous simply because the festival of passover happens at the full moon which of course precludes a solar eclipse. “Thallus in the third book of his histories, explains away this darkness as an eclipse of the sun -unreasonably, as it seems to me" . Notice that Thallus did not deny the existence of Jesus Christ but merely speculated as to the causes of the strange events surrounding His death.

Was there, in fact, a full moon? or was there a solar eclispe? or perhaps neither took place.

Ibid.
Phelegon

The second first Century non-Christian Roman writer Phlegon also wrote of Christ’s death and ressurection in his chronicles saying " Jesus while alive, was of no assistance to himself, but that he arose after death, and exhibited the marks of his punishment, and showed how his hands had been pierced by nails. Phlegon even mentioned "the eclipse in the time of Tiberius Caesar, in whose reign Jesus appears to have been crucified, and the great earthquakes which then took place." Later the great Christian theologian Origen would cite Phlegon in defending Julius Africanus’s argument that the darkness of the Passion of Christ was supernatural when he wrote “Phlegon mentioned the eclipse which took place during the crucifixion of the Lord Jesus Christ, and no other [eclipse], it is clear that he did not know from his sources about any [similar] eclipse in previous times...and this is shown by the historical account itself of Tiberius Caesar”

There was, according to NASA, a total solar eclipse in the region between 21-40 BCE

But at http://www.mreclipse.com/Special/quotes.html the date was given as 29 BCE and not 32-33 BCE as suggested by Phelegon who sets the date as "In the fourth year of the 202nd Olympiad (AD 32-33), and eclipse of the Sun took place greater than any previously known, and night came on at the sixth hour of the day, so that stars actually appeared in the sky; and a great earthquake took place in Bithynia and overthrew the greater part of Niceaea."

http://users.drew.edu/ddoughty/Christianorigins/persecutions/tacitus.html

Tacitus' Account of Nero's Persecution of Christians. Annals 15.44.2-8
by Prof Darrel J Doughty

But the real question concerns the historical reliability of this information -- i.e., whether we have to do here with a later Christian insertion. When I consider a question such as this, the first question to ask is whether it conceivable or perhaps even probable that later Christians might have modified ancient historical sources; and the answer to this question certainly must be yes! Then, with regard to this particular source, I note that the earliest manuscript we have for the Annales dates from the 11th century, and must therefore have been copied and recopied many times, by generations of Christian scribes (and Christian apologists). So there were certainly many opporunities to modify what Tacitus originally wrote.

Furthermore, it is highly remarkable that no other ancient source associates Christians with the burning of Rome until Sulpicius Serverus in the late fourth century (see New Eusebius, 3). The dramatic and fantastic description of the tortures suffered by the scapegoats resembles the executions portrayed in later legendary Acts of Christian Martyrs. And John Meir tellingly observes (without perceiving its significance): "There is a great historical irony in this text of Tacitus; it is the only time in ancient pagan literature that Pontius Pilate is mentioned by name--as a way of specifying who Christ is. Pilate's fate in the Christian creeds is already foreshadowed in a pagan historian," -- which could easily indicate Christian apologetic intervention. For all these reasons, therefore, one must at least conclude that this text is too problematical to serve as historical evidence for anything. I myself, however, regard it as probable that we have to do here with a later Christian elaboration.

He gores on to say

In defense of authenticity, it has been argued that no matter what the textual or historical difficulties, no Christian would ever have written such phrases as "pernicious superstition" or "the home of the disease" or "loathed for their vices"... that a Christian scribe would never have let such things stand if he was redacting the passage... and that there is not a hint of Christian theology or tendentiousness in the entire chapter.

As I understand it, Tacitius was very anti-Christian and the words merely seem to be in the "style" of Tacitius. It would not appear authentic otherwise.

 

[tigrers99]

Orthodox: Your partial quote comes from the ancient writing of the Sanhedrin in about 200 A.D.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/b_san43a.html