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If the Universe Required a Creator ...

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Sure, I don't think a serious philosopher would posit one uncaused cause with 100% certainty, but would appeal to Occam's razor?
If we've accepted that an uncaused cause exists (for whatever reason), Occam's Razor properly applied would suggest that:

- we shouldn't assume the existence of some mechanism that limits the number of uncaused causes to only one.

- we shouldn't assume that the uncaused cause is anything but an uncaused cause... e.g. we shouldn't assume that it's intelligent, eternal, is worthy of worship, or holds opinions about human morality.
 

9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
It does? In what culture does calling a rose a potato fail to cause problems in communication or convey very different concepts?
I think you're speaking to the same issue as Demonslayer, but in a roundabout way.

The cosmological argument works just as well for "the Cosmic Giraffe" as it does for any mainstream god-concept. As you point out, though, the Cosmic Giraffe is a very different concept from mainstream god-concepts. The implication here is that the cosmological argument isn't an argument for the existence of God per se; it's an argument for the existence of at least one member of a category of things that includes gods, cosmic giraffes, universe-creating pixies, and a whole host of other things. To narrow it down to God specifically would take much more work that the argument doesn't do.

In the meantime, we can recognize that even though the Cosmic Giraffe and universe-creating pixies are in the category of things supported by the argument (and assuming that the other logical problems with the argument get resolved somehow), we can still dismiss these things as almost certainly false. This means that the argument has lended no weight whatsoever to the claim that any particular thing in the category of things being argued for actually exists.
 

savagewind

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If we've accepted that an uncaused cause exists (for whatever reason), Occam's Razor properly applied would suggest that:

- we shouldn't assume the existence of some mechanism that limits the number of uncaused causes to only one.

- we shouldn't assume that the uncaused cause is anything but an uncaused cause... e.g. we shouldn't assume that it's intelligent, eternal, is worthy of worship, or holds opinions about human morality.
We are here so imo something would have had to be forever. Might it have been more than a singularity? I don't see how. Whenever two things exist there is also some disagreement. I don't see things at the simplest level changing much. I am sure that there is someone who will disagree with that.
Might the singularity be without intelligence? If it is we can teach it. Can't we?
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
Theologians cannot make the question invalid just by declaring the question invalid. And they cannot make "God" uncaused just by declaring "God" uncaused.

I'm sorry, but each person has every right to define what gods are within their own theology and/or worldview. Definitions of terms are like philosophical premises or assumptions - they are granted and given. While you can disagree with the definition, if you grant the definition is as it is, it makes the question invalid in that it cannot logically follow from the premise. If we grant that the term "god" designates an "uncaused cause" then it cannot logically follow to ask what caused it, as it is, by definition, the uncaused cause. This is basic logic, folks. Again, you can certainly ask the question: "do you agree with the premise that god is defined as the uncaused cause?" That is a valid question. But once we grant that this is the case (and we do not have to do this), it is not a valid question to ask "what caused the uncaused cause." Furthermore, all of this is separate from the issue of whether or not such a defined entity "exists" in some particular fashion. Philosophical argumentation doesn't require things "exist" behind being concepts, words, and ideas. We can go about defining "god" as "uncaused cause" and then refuse that this concept has any relevance outside of philosophical wordplay.

Might as well consider this my response to you as well, @9-10ths_Penguin , as I think it covers most of what you were getting at as well?
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No physical system is capable of possessing property values of the vast majority of real numbers? Sorry, what does this mean?
It is generally believed (thanks to centuries of experimentation and theoretical developments) that most physical systems can have observable measurements that can take on values over intervals of the real numbers. For example, we can say that an object which accelerates from 60 kilometers per hour to 70 does so continuously (it doesn't skip over any speeds in the interval [60,70]). In any interval, there are not only infinitely many rational numbers, but infinitely many irrational numbers too. So for an object to go any distance or travel at any speed requires that it "traverse" an uncountable infinity (an infinity "larger" than that of the rational numbers, integers, etc.).


Sure, I don't think a serious philosopher would posit one uncaused cause with 100% certainty, but would appeal to Occam's razor?
I was actually stealing this point from a philosophical text: Logic and Theism. I highly recommend it, and it is apparently available for free (I just googled it).
 

Acim

Revelation all the time
If the universe required a creator, and its creator was god, then who/what created god?

Super god?

Super God works for me.

I understand the physical universe to be (ahem) 'created' by a demiurge (lesser god).

IMO, the interesting part of the inquiry, worthy of further discussion, is what is really meant by the word "created?"
 

fantome profane

Anti-Woke = Anti-Justice
Premium Member
I'm sorry, but each person has every right to define what gods are within their own theology and/or worldview. Definitions of terms are like philosophical premises or assumptions - they are granted and given. While you can disagree with the definition, if you grant the definition is as it is, it makes the question invalid in that it cannot logically follow from the premise. If we grant that the term "god" designates an "uncaused cause" then it cannot logically follow to ask what caused it, as it is, by definition, the uncaused cause. This is basic logic, folks. Again, you can certainly ask the question: "do you agree with the premise that god is defined as the uncaused cause?" That is a valid question. But once we grant that this is the case (and we do not have to do this), it is not a valid question to ask "what caused the uncaused cause." Furthermore, all of this is separate from the issue of whether or not such a defined entity "exists" in some particular fashion. Philosophical argumentation doesn't require things "exist" behind being concepts, words, and ideas. We can go about defining "god" as "uncaused cause" and then refuse that this concept has any relevance outside of philosophical wordplay.

Might as well consider this my response to you as well, @9-10ths_Penguin , as I think it covers most of what you were getting at as well?
I'm sorry too, I don't wish to interfere with a person's right to define their own terms as they wish. You can define the word "potato" as four wheeled means of transportation, or you can define it as a feathered hat. And further I can define a potato as being uncaused if I define "uncaused" as "grown in dirt". So yes, each person has the right to define their terms, but for any conversation to be meaningful the terms must be based on something. So the theologian has no special right to impose their definition on the questioner, unless there can be shown a reason for defining the term in such a way. So I say again theologians cannot make the question invalid just by declaring it so, they can not make God uncaused anymore than they can make a potato a ferrari. So me that God is uncause, otherwise God might as well be a potato (whatever that means).
 
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LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Theologians cannot make the question invalid just by declaring the question invalid.
True (although they can make it invalid within a particular context, but this holds true for everything- I can make it invalid to speak of god as anything other than a potato by defining god as such, in which case it is invalid to ask about non-potato gods, but who cares?).
And they cannot make "God" uncaused just by declaring "God" uncaused.
True. However, a first cause isn't really uncaused. It is the start or origin of causality/causation itself. That which causes causality is necessarily uncaused. This is true even if one accepts that the universe originated without a creator (nothing caused it, but it was the origin of causality).

If a complicated entity like God can just exist without an explanation, then so can other complicated entities and the first cause argument is defeated.
Not true. In fact central to the most sophisticated logical "proofs" of god is the possession of properties which necessarily make god unique. I think the better point (or perhaps the same point better made?) is this:
there's no automatic link from "God is an uncaused cause" to "there can be only one uncaused cause".

If complicated entities do require an explanation then so does God. And even William Lane Craig cannot just declare it otherwise.
Even here we can make the simplistic move that god is by definition that which need not be caused or explained (i.e., that entity which can "cause" existence and causation). The real problem is getting from god as that which is uncaused to the unique entity defined into existence by being so (there can be many uncaused causes; we don't need a singular uncaused cause to "start" the would-be causal chain).
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
The "first cause" argument is hardly restricted to Aristotle, and arguably Zeno's logic (which predates Aristotle) is at play in the Aristotelian "first cause" argument. There can absolutely be an infinite line of causes going backwards, because (for example) if there weren't then no physical system is capable of possessing property values of the vast majority of real numbers.
My view is that Aristotle, with his First Cause argument, he wasn't arguing for what we're arguing today. When he said "First Cause" (as one of the four causes), he meant something more akin to what you suggested (the cause of causality, something that pre-exists).

The "First Cause" that we see today comes really from the Kalaam argument, which is later, and it's more framed in the fashion of cause-and-event (causality).

Just some of my thoughts brought on by your post. :)
 

LegionOnomaMoi

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My view is that Aristotle, with his First Cause argument, he wasn't arguing for what we're arguing today. When he said "First Cause" (as one of the four causes), he meant something more akin to what you suggested (the cause of causality, something that pre-exists).
I mostly agree, in that Aristotle certainly wasn't arguing for what Craig et al. argue for. But he envisioned cause as requiring an agent. In fact, he held back mechanics for a thousand years by failing to realize that things can move without a mover (specifically, that spears can continue to travel despite no longer being moved by a person because of some imagined displacement of air). Also, just for clarity for readers, the first cause fit into one of Aristotle's four causes but wasn't itself one of these causes (i.e., regardless of whether the first cause was a final or efficient cause, it was only an instance of one of these causes). I'm not saying you meant to imply that the first cause was one of the four categories of causation Aristotle describes, but I thought it important to clarify.

The "First Cause" that we see today comes really from the Kalaam argument, which is later, and it's more framed in the fashion of cause-and-event (causality).
Absolutely. And, moreover, we see it mostly coming from one form of Craig's argument. I dislike him particularly because he feels it is ok to present the non-specialist public an argument that he reveals in more technical writings to be flawed as if it were iron-clad. He doesn't simplify so much as he does distort.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
If the universe required a creator, and its creator was god, then who/what created god?

Super god?

If the universe required a creator -that would be due to the nature of the universe specifically.

Certain things cannot happen in the universe unless set in motion by an intelligence -due to the nature of the things which are arranged into something else.
Science does not yet know enough about that which composed the singularity known as the big bang to determine what was necessary for its existence or occurrence. Man -understandably -has focused mostly on what followed.

God would not require a creator if the nature of God was such that it could be or happen without another creator.

In other words, what some think is true of the universe might actually be true of God. God just was -just happened to be or become -it was inevitable.

Before other things could happen, perhaps an intelligence necessarily existed or developed first.

I believe the universe required something to exist -prior to the big bang -which could essentially package and execute the singularity which would become our specific universe.

It seems to me that it would be a creative intelligence -and I believe the initial creative intelligence did not require a creator because it essentially self-created from the most simple state possible.

The singularity we call the big bang seems far too complex -does not seem to me to be the most simple state possible.

Though God would not require another creator, God would be a being composed of an arrangement of something. That something would have to be arranged somehow -but if it arranged itself simply and increased its own complexity by compounding simplicities, it could be created -could self-create -without requiring another creator. The creator would be the creator -the one which could act and also that which could be acted upon.

God would not HAVE a beginning in reference to anything previous -God would BE the beginning.

Self-creation would not necessarily require initial complex awareness. How complex can awareness be if what exists is thus-far simple?
Also -what is complex awareness if not a arrangement of simple awarenesses and interactions.
How do we become aware of something? Interaction.
So -the basis of awareness is the most simple interaction. Complex awareness would develop in tandem with complex interaction.

How do we become aware of ourselves?

Strange as it may seem, it does seem to me that we are initially (at the point of conception) more complex than God might have been -because he has been there -done that -and would be able to fast-track our complexity, self-awareness, etc.....

That's not to say I know -just that it is what I now think possible.
 
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Guy Threepwood

Mighty Pirate
If we've accepted that an uncaused cause exists (for whatever reason), Occam's Razor properly applied would suggest that:

- we shouldn't assume the existence of some mechanism that limits the number of uncaused causes to only one.

- we shouldn't assume that the uncaused cause is anything but an uncaused cause... e.g. we shouldn't assume that it's intelligent, eternal, is worthy of worship, or holds opinions about human morality.

By that rationale, we shouldn't assume this software was created by anything other than itself. That's certainly the simplest explanation isn't it?

So were static, eternal, universes, avoiding all the messy implications of creation events,
so was classical physics, who wants to wade into mysterious unpredictable forces running everything?
So was Darwinism, smooth steady transitions were much easier to digest than a 'punctuated equilibrium' of sudden appearances followed by stasis

Apparently the universe doesn't adhere to occum's razor, once we get past the most superficial of observations.
 
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