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If Theory of Darwin is fact, not theory, then Darwin Theory is wrong in its title already?

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
What about the theory of God did it?

OK, here's your chance. Use the theory that 'God did it' to predict the timing of galactic formation in the early universe. Or, if you want, use it to figure out the decay half-life of a tau particle. Or, alternatively, use it to determine whether axions exist and how to detect them if they do. or to predict the existence of a new subatomic particle. Or *anything* we don't already know and can be verified (actually, we do know the decay rate for the tau particle, but getting it from theory alone isn't easy).

Being able to do *something* like these is required to be a theory, as opposed to non-scientific speculation.

Can any one show a significant evidence that God wasn't involved
from the point of nil to the existence of man?

Irrelevant. The burden of proof is on the one making the existence claim. If I claim a certain type of subatomic particle exists, it is up to me to provide evidence for its existence and NOT for others to prove its non-existence. if I claim a certain type of star exists, it is up to me to give evidence for existence, not up to others to provide evidence against it.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Life itself, create babies in the lab and God is proven false.
NO!
Why do you say this? it doesn't follow; it's not logical. Our ability to do something once attributed only to God has nothing to do with God's existence.
Eg: God created light. We can now create light. Does that prove God false?

[Valjean said:

Science keeps discovering natural, non-supernatural mechanisms for the mysteries previously attributed to God.

Such as ..
We now understand why the Sun crosses the sky, how the seasons happen, how night and day happen, how tides happen, how rain happens, why people get sick, why meat rots, how our bodies work, what causes earthquakes, &c, &c, &c -- all were once mysteries of God.
You believe what you can see, do you think God is a man or a woman
or something similar to us to show himself up?
I think any personified god is a creation of the human imagination.
I believe in logical thinking, thinking that life and the complexity
of it and how human brains work to think of it as just happened
to be so without any prior plan is like thinking that Monkeys can
make cars.
You may "believe in" logical thinking, but you're clearly logically challenged. You make statements and draw conclusions that don't follow, logically.
Science has shown how life and complexity can develop all by itself; how the algorithms established at the Big Bang will naturally result in this complexity. You seem unaware of the natural mechanisms science has discovered, and are proposing magic instead.
Your errors here are Arguments from Ignorance and Arguments from Personal Incredulity (Google).
Life is evidence.
No. You're doing it again. You're positing magic as an explanation for something you don't understand. You're arguing from ignorance.
False dilemma - Wikipedia
Argument from ignorance - Wikipedia
Your logical fallacy is personal incredulity
Your logical fallacy is black or white
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Not able to test for God doesn't mean God doesn't exist, for example
bacteria was always existing but we were able to prove it in the year 1670.

IOW if I can't prove to you that God exists doesn't mean that God doesn't
exist by default, but if you can prove that God really doesn't exist and that by creating life such us making babies in the lab, then this will prove that God isn't the creator since we can do what he did.

OK, you are the one claiming God exists (which, by the way, shows how your analogy fails--nobody claimed bacteria existed before they were actually seen).

What advance of technology is required for us to be able to detect God? We *can*, for example, make babies in the lab (take a male and female, let them have sex, wait 9 months). Now, how do we actually detect God?

Is there an observation that you can propose that, if that measurement fails to show a God, you will accept that none exists?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
create babies in the lab and God is proven false.

Not really...if scientists someday find a way to create life — which I doubt, but if they do — it will only “prove” one thing: that it takes Intelligence to perform such a feat of engineering!
 

Bob the Unbeliever

Well-Known Member
Not really...if scientists someday find a way to create life — which I doubt, but if they do — it will only “prove” one thing: that it takes Intelligence to perform such a feat of engineering!

Been there. Done that. Already lab experimental proof that it does NOT NEED gods to make life.

Pity your god-- it has now vanished in a puff of experiment.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That isn't creating life once we have the reproduction cells, of course
I won't believe in God once I see a factory making living babies.
That would be foolish, and illogical. A baby factory won't disprove God. Did the discovery of the mechanism creating Summer and Winter disprove God?
Again, why do you think this? What is your reasoning?
Nature or God, what difference it makes.
Automatic vs intentional. Automatic doesn't require an intentional agent.
You believe it's the nature and that it happened to be so during
billions of years, why life existed on earth?
There is no "why." Life is the natural result of the physics and chemistry that existed on Earth.

Why must there be a "why?" Why do you think everything must have some intentional plan?
the theory it just happened
to be so, no plans, how can you prove to me that it just happened to be
so ? why it happened that earth was suitable for life? why earth was suitable for evolution to happen?
It just happened, like a particular hand was drawn at cards, or a particular number with a throw of dice.
It seems there are billions of planets. Why the surprise that some have conditions suitable for life?

Physics produces suns and planets by natural, unguided laws. Some are too cold, some too hot, some too large, &c. Ours just chanced to have conditions suitable for the chemistry of life to happen.

Your incredulity is not evidence for a magical creator.
Your theory , it just happened to be so, there were no plans for it to happen.
Exactly! Why do you think there must be plans? Just because you plan; just because the houses and cars and markets and schools you experience in your own life are planned and intentional doesn't mean that other things don't happen automatically, without planning or intention.
Have you never studied chemistry or physics? Things just happen; the natural result of the laws and constants of our particular universe.
The evidence is life and our minds, will a cat think about a creator for this universe?
But that is not evidence. Your arguing from ignorance. There are natural, biological explanations for us and our minds. You should have learned these in school.
Just because you're unaware of how we and our minds came to be doesn't mean the only explanation is magic. Remember, people used to think the same thing about the seasons, earthquakes, epidemics, &c.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Life itself, create babies in the lab and God is proven false.
The cool thing with nature is that we do constantly create life from non-life. Our body takes in amino-acids, proteins, and other molecules that are all in every sense "dead", but we incorporate them into cells and produce new cells. One cell becomes two that becomes four, and so on. Each cell containing dead stuff, but is alive by the fact that it's doing things. Life is really a matter of process. Something dead that processes other stuff and interact with the environment, and even take in information and process it and make decisions, that's what life is. And that is happening already on a molecular level, atomic level, and quantum level... Life is integrated in reality and existence. A thing is dead. But a thing that does things is alive. Think about it. God as a separate entity doesn't create the cells in our body, but rather God as a fact and reality of nature itself, creates cells through the biochemical processes that are integral in the world.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Not really...if scientists someday find a way to create life — which I doubt, but if they do — it will only “prove” one thing: that it takes Intelligence to perform such a feat of engineering!
And you started so well. Sorry, but your conclusion makes the same error that @FearGod made. An unjustified conclusion based upon a misunderstanding of the subject matter.

Too bad that the amount of scientific evidence for an Intelligent Designer is the same as the evidence for a God, none at all.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Life is evidence.

Life is evidence that life is possible - that matter can live - not evidence for the existence of a god or gods, That is one possible explanation for how life came to exist in the universe. The other is that it arose naturalistically through abiogenesis, a second possibility. Neither can be ruled in or out at this time, but they can be ordered.

The naturalisitic hypothesis is more parsimonious, and therefore preferred, since it doesn't need a god. You seem to have dropped the naturalistic possibility from your list with no more justification than that you just don't see how it could have happened without an intelligent designer. That's a logical error called an incredulity fallacy

Another logical error that you have made is to try to account for something that you find too complex and unlikely to have formed without an intelligent designer by positing something even more complex and unlikely, a god, to account for life, but making no effort to account for this god's existence, a special pleading fallacy.

Elsewhere, you implied that if we lack an answer such as the mechanism that generated the early universe or life, we should just assume a god is responsible. That's a fallacy from ignorance (that's not an insult but a reference to lack of knowledge) that implies something is untrue because we don't know that it is true (or vice versa). You've made both errors when you assume that gods exist because nobody can prove they don't while at the same time rejecting even the possibility of a naturalistic explanation because nobody can prove to you that it is correct, together forming another example of special pleading (an unjustified double standard).

I believe in logical thinking, thinking that life and the complexity of it and how human brains work to think of it as just happened to be so without any prior plan is like thinking that Monkeys can make cars.

No, your example is known to be impossible. More intelligence than a monkey has is needed to design and build cars.

Abiogenesis, on the other hand is not known to be impossible. There is no known reason why life and mind couldn't have emerged from the universe without gods. False equivalence fallacy

And your logical skills aren't as good as you seem to think. People don't learn to think logically or critically without a commitment to such things as skepticism, reason, empiricism, and learning to evaluate evidence and arguments properly. It's a skill that comes from years of practice, usually with a university education.

As soon as an element believed by faith is inserted into the argument, the reason train is derailed, just as if you are adding a column of multi-digit numbers, you must remain faithful to the rules of addition at every step, a single error anywhere derailing the process and resulting in an incorrect answer. It needs to be done carefully and methodically or it generates garbage even if 99.9% of the individual additions are done properly. This is how faith corrupts the process:
  • “If somewhere in the Bible I were to find a passage that said 2 + 2 = 5, I wouldn't question what I am reading in the Bible. I would believe it, accept it as true, and do my best to work it out and understand it."- Pastor Peter laRuffa
And he would never add properly again.

It's my experience that few creationists develop these skills, nor do they learn the science that is known, and so their claims fail when they present them to others that have mastered those skills.

I won't believe in God once I see a factory making living babies.

If you examine yourself closely, you'll see that that is very unlikely to be true. You came to your present position by faith, not evidence, and no evidence will move you from it. Let me help you out: if and when man synthesizes life - even human life - starting with nonlife (that is, de novo), your answer can be that that proves intelligent design was needed (which would be yet another fallacy), and also that nobody can prove to you that that is in fact what happened. Faith is immune to reason and evidence.

The evidence [for a god] is life and our minds

No, evidence for a god is something that is better explained by a supernaturalisitic explanation than a naturalistic one. The existence of life and mind only prove that they are possible, not that they came from a god for reasons already given.
 

The Hammer

Skald
Premium Member
Dialog:

- If the Theory of Darwin is fact, not theory, then Darwin's Theory is wrong in its title already?

- Evolution is a fact. Theory of Evolution is the theory of the fact.

- No, google "Cosmology Crisis" then. The Theory of Evolution is defined as having the following sections: Theory of Big Bang+Theory of Cosmic Evolution+Theory of Darwin+Social Darwinism.
Social Darwinism is the application of Evolution to Socium.

Opponent: "What?! Where did you get that?"

Enter my own quest for truth or stay outside: Wikipedia can lie because the authors can be liars or wrong.

Definition of scientific theory | Dictionary.com
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Not really...

True. If humans created life entirely artificially it wouldn't disprove that a god actually did it first.

...if scientists someday find a way to create life — which I doubt, but if they do — it will only “prove” one thing: that it takes Intelligence to perform such a feat of engineering!

False. Your are confusing sufficiency with necessity (a common logical mistake). What it would prove is that enough intelligence and knowledge was sufficient to create life, it would say nothing about its necessity.
 

Polymath257

Think & Care
Staff member
Premium Member
Not really...if scientists someday find a way to create life — which I doubt, but if they do — it will only “prove” one thing: that it takes Intelligence to perform such a feat of engineering!

It depends on how they achieve it. If they set up a system that is likely to exist in the universe and life arises spontaneously from that setup, then the conclusion that intelligence is required would be wrong.

If, the first time, they have to intervene in the process at several steps, that *suggests* intelligence is required. if we find several different ways to create life and all of them require intervention, then the case for intelligent intervention is more supported.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Again, you still don't understand how science work.

And how science works, let us hear from you

In science, nothing is "true" by default, FearGod.

Where did I say true by default? I said create babies and God will be proven to be false

There are no magic and no divine miracles involved in nature.
Where did I say that magic is involved?

The only people who believe in miracles and magic are superstitious people, like yourself, who believe in powerful invisible being.

Whereas you believe in the stone, you don't believe in design and plan, you don't believe that
a proper job needs plan , design and a good science, you just believe that things just happened to be so,
how can we do anything without having the knowledge and science, how the universe managed to be without a proper plan and design.

You are the one who believe in spirit, and there are no evidence to support the existence of such spirit that you called “God”.

Like saying to the stone man prove to me that matters hold electrons.
 
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