If there's no free-will...

[Mock Turtle]

I'm surprised we aren't all suing the gambling industry, for false representation.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Why would we become aware of the interconnected-ness and oneness of Everything if we were aware of our lack of freewill? I do not understand the connection.

Because by realizing that every decision that we make, down to the movement of the finger, is the result of a chain of events from outside of what one would consider the Self, then we would realize that we're not separate from the world around us.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because by realizing that every decision that we make, down to the movement of the finger, is the result of a chain of events from outside of what one would consider the Self, then we would realize that we're not separate from the world around us.

I agree that everything that happens is the result of a chain of events outside the self and I agree that we are not separate from the world around us. Why do you think that means we have no free will? We are still free to make choices within certain parameters. If we could not make choices that would mean that someone or something else is controlling our behavior.

I believe we have free will although it is constrained. I do not believe we are free to do anything we want to, but I believe that we can make certain choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the capacity.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

I agree that everything that happens is the result of a chain of events outside the self and I agree that we are not separate from the world around us. Why do you think that means we have no free will? We are still free to make choices within certain parameters. If we could not make choices that would mean that someone or something else is controlling our behavior.

I would say everything is controlling our behavior. It can nature or it can be nurture, and at another level it could be mathematics and physical laws. Beyond that I personally view God as the decider of everything.

I believe we have free will although it is constrained. I do not believe we are free to do anything we want to, but I believe that we can make certain choices based upon our desires and preferences. Our desires and preferences come from a combination of factors such as childhood upbringing, heredity, education, adult experiences, and present life circumstances. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the capacity.

If our desires and preferences are determined by those factors, can the choices we make with them really be said to be our own?

 

[Trailblazer]

I would say everything is controlling our behavior. It can nature or it can be nurture, and at another level it could be mathematics and physical laws. Beyond that I personally view God as the decider of everything.

I do not believe that anything is controlling our behavior and I do not believe God decides what humans will do.
Obviously nature and nurture influence our behavior but that is not the same thing as saying they control our behavior.

If our desires and preferences are determined by those factors, can the choices we make with them really be said to be our own?

Yes, I think the choices we make are our own, and once we become aware that we have free will to choose we are aware that we are making choices all the time. It is a conscious thought process.

 

[Magical Wand]

I want to know why people ever thought free will was actually free in the first place?...as in a 'free-for-all'....it was only ever to be exercised within certain constraints, because unbridled individual free will can rob others of the right to exercise theirs.....so the idea that free will means you can do whatever you wish without repercussions or consequences for yourself and others, is not only illogical, it is actually undesirable.....no actions are without outcomes, some of which are lamentable in hindsight....but preventable with foresight. We had to learn to drive it....so IMO, foresight is the better driver of free will....along with the Golden Rule.
Does that make sense?

So, how would you define free will?

 

[Deeje]

So, how would you define free will?

I already did....it is freedom of choice contained within the parameters set by the Creator.

It never was absolute freedom....that is why "the knowledge of good and evil" was withheld from the humans originally. It was never supposed to be left up to them to decide what is good and what is evil. But that is what they wanted and that is what God allowed them to experience......abuse of free will has plagued the human race ever since.

 

[Magical Wand]

I already did....it is freedom of choice contained within the parameters set by the Creator.

It never was absolute freedom....that is why "the knowledge of good and evil" was withheld from the humans originally. It was never supposed to be left up to them to decide what is good and what is evil. But that is wanted and that is what God allowed them to experience......abuse of free will has plagued the human race ever since.

That's highly unspecific. Do you agree with the view that freedom of will means that (for whatever option you actualized) you could have done otherwise? Is that your view? Is your view of free will compatible with the widely agreed fact of macro-determinism?

 

[Deeje]

That's highly unspecific.

What is unspecific about it? Free will to me means that God did not create us to be programmed robots, but that we were endowed with God’s moral qualities and the ability to make decisions, in order to carry out the assignment that he gave us. We do not act instinctively like the animals, but purposefully and with ability to envision future outcomes from those actions. We alone have the faculty of imagination and a concept of past present and future. These would make us excellent caretakers here on this earth as the Creator's representatives....acting in his behalf....but only if we could follow instructions.....how hard was it really?

Do you agree with the view that freedom of will means that (for whatever option you actualized) you could have done otherwise? Is that your view? Is your view of free will compatible with the widely agreed fact of macro-determinism?

Both of the first humans could have "done otherwise".....each had choices that led to outcomes that were already explained. The woman chose to believe the words of someone who called into question God's right to make rules, or to set parameters for his own creation......the man chose to side with his disobedient wife rather than to lose her. If they had made other choices, we may not be having this conversation....

That scenario in Eden could have gone several ways with different outcomes......have you ever considered them?
God simply responded to their choices and acted accordingly.

 

[Magical Wand]

Free will to me means that God did not create us to be programmed robots, but that we were endowed with... the ability to make decisions... Both of the first humans could have "done otherwise"

How do you reconcile the view we are not determined to make certain choices with the fact that the universe is deterministic? If the macro-universe is deterministic, doesn't that mean all macro-outcomes were determined (and therefore programmed) from the beginning? How do you account for that in your worldview?

 

[Deeje]

How do you reconcile the view we are not determined to make certain choices with the fact that the universe is deterministic? If the macro-universe is deterministic, doesn't that mean all macro-outcomes were determined (and therefore programmed) from the beginning? How do you account for that in your worldview?

I see programming in everything in creation because they were all pre-determined by the one who made them. He has a purpose to everything that is always pre-determined. (Isaiah 45:18; Isaiah 55:11)

Humankind however are not programmed to the extent that they act only in the present, or purely on instinct. They alone are made “in God’s image” so that they reflect aspects of the Creator’s qualities and personality and his ability to respond to situations before they occur. We alone possess those abilities to foresee and take action to prevent a situation, rather than to deal with it as it happens.

If you read the Genesis account, you can see that God acted in creation, but with his human children, he reacted to their decisions. Their free willed choices determined what action he would take in order to bring about the fulfilment of his first purpose. So what was his first purpose for us humans?

He assigned us as caretakers of his earthly creation and endowed us with his attributes so that we could make plans and decisions demanded in that assignment, as the Creator himself would under the same circumstance.

Considering the other potential outcomes of the choices made by our first parents, we can see where those other choices may have led....

1) satan made a choice to defect from his Creator as an exercise of his free will. Had he not done so, what would have been the outcome? Would the humans have chosen to disobey without his prompting?

2) What if the woman had told the devil to ’get lost’ (as Jesus did when the devil tempted him) What would the outcome have been? Would they have been led into sin and it’s painful outcome?

3) What if the man had chosen to side with God instead of his wife? What might the outcome have been then? Would God have enacted the death penalty on her, whilst preserving the man and providing him with a new mate?......then recording her actions as a warning for all future humans?

4) We know what the outcome of the 4th choice was because we have been living with it for all this time. But imagine if any of the other scenarios had taken place. In each case God would have responded to their choices accordingly.

 

[amorphous_constellation]

... what's the use in arguing about it?

I think it's useful when you might recognize only a sliver of free-will. With biological determinism , I think there still may be room for a hint of the stuff. Perhaps one gains more , when they think about it more . Or at least I'd like to think that pondering objectivity versus subjectivity stimulates the frontal cortex

 

[Kooky]

I don't see anything illogical about having free will that is constrained. All that means is that we are not free to do anything we might want to do, and that makes logical sense because nothing in life is black and white. We cannot do everything we might want to do because we either don't have the ability or the capacity, or someone else interferes with our ability to do it, or we choose not to do it because we care more about someone else than ourselves.

"Constrained free will" is a contradiction in terms. Why not just call it "will"?

 

[Kooky]

... what's the use in arguing about it?

It still provides the theoretical foundation for a lot of laws and legal arguments in Western civilization, as well as the primary arguments propping up capitalist free market doctrine.

 

[Trailblazer]

"Constrained free will" is a contradiction in terms. Why not just call it "will"?

That is a good point. Since we are not 'free' to do anything we want to do, free will is kind of a misnomer. What it really is is that we have a will of our own and we have volition, which is the ability to exercise our will.

volition: the faculty or power of using one's will. https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=volition+means

According to my beliefs, we all have certain capacities which do differ among people, but we cannot use what we our capacities unless we exercise our volition

“And now, concerning thy question regarding the creation of man. Know thou that all men have been created in the nature made by God, the Guardian, the Self-Subsisting. Unto each one hath been prescribed a pre-ordained measure, as decreed in God’s mighty and guarded Tablets. All that which ye potentially possess can, however, be manifested only as a result of your own volition. Your own acts testify to this truth.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 149

 

[Stevicus]

... what's the use in arguing about it?

I never saw much point in arguing about "free will," in and of itself. Most of the time, the concept gets brought up in conjunction with the problem of evil and trying to reconcile it with the two unproven claims that there is a God and that this God is benevolent and good. "Free will" is offered as an excuse to answer the question as to how evil can exist in a world created by an all-powerful benevolent God.

The argument usually goes that it's not God's fault that there's evil, because it's humans doing the evil because they have free will. A strong case could be made for that, although there might still be some other factors to consider.

When humans make evil choices, I wouldn't necessarily blame directly God for that, but I would make note of how biologically faulty and deficient humans truly are - apparently by design - if we were designed.

So, what some people dismiss as "free will," I would suggest a possible design flaw. That seems the more likely explanation, which makes me think there probably wasn't really any design at all.

 

[rational experiences]

When only the eternal spirit existed without change there was no creation....its will freely expressed the meaning of caused change.

Conscious teaching said free will owned change.

Then consciousness who inherited new life as humans given conscious dominion over all things said I don't want to be in a lower spirit form.

My will was removed. To own a status self control.

Our brother the theist about why we are here and beginnings now states of course your will is no longer free I own and control the creation in status of man by group force. Dominion.

I am the thinker teacher of reasons you know he egotistically states.

We then say but free is the life of gods presence a planet supporting a nature that supplied everything equally for everyone freely without charge or status.

Why his greedy history says the will of God as the cult science group is in his control.

Now family wants free human will to be given back as we have had enough of your abuses.

Why we talk about free will as the spiritual ideal of living equally and mutually is real.