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"If two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you"

Shermana

Heretic
Indeed, it seems that Christians overwhelmingly use Paul and Acts to support their doctrine and virtually stay away from the Gospels except in a few places like John 3:16, while virtually ignoring practically everything Jesus teaches.

This would make an excellent thread topic.

As to what Jesus meant, I personally believe that it's simply the case that it only applies to TRUE disciples. Pegg KIND OF has the right idea in that he's talking ONLY to his disciples, but the context I believe is that he's saying to those who fully believe what he taught.

Thus, those who are not true disciples and only THINK they are Christians will not get their wishes granted.

He also says that when you pray, do so in your room with the door closed and whatever you ask in his name will be granted.

So we can garner from this that one can tell if they are truly in his good graces and doing what is right if their prayers are answered as such. Make sense?
 

oldbadger

Skanky Old Mongrel!
Oh!......... I think I can prove the above post!!!!

Ready? Over many decades I have asked christians this question....

'If, by giving up your place in heaven, and losing your soul and all, you could save every single person that had ever lived, would you give up your soul and all for them?'

I have to tell you, that in many decades, nobody has yet told me 'Yes! I would give my soul for all mankind!'

There you have it......... such total self centred focus could never have full accord and agreement with any other similar heart/soul. Jesus was right. This is my argument.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Thus, those who are not true disciples and only THINK they are Christians will not get their wishes granted.

He also says that when you pray, do so in your room with the door closed and whatever you ask in his name will be granted.

So we can garner from this that one can tell if they are truly in his good graces and doing what is right if their prayers are answered as such. Make sense?

ok, so a 'true' christian asks for his cancer to go into remission... does he get his prayer answered?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
The whole of Matthew 18 is anachronistic. Jesus is recorded in it as teaching his disciples at a time before there was yet to be a "Church".
Part of what he is saying appears to be referring to them alone (18-18) and at other time to members of "the" church (18-15).
It would seem that Matthew was confused while writing these verses, perhaps between different sources of his information, and most certainly about the chronology of Jesus and the establishment of the church.
 

Shermana

Heretic
The whole of Matthew 18 is anachronistic. Jesus is recorded in it as teaching his disciples at a time before there was yet to be a "Church".
Part of what he is saying appears to be referring to them alone (18-18) and at other time to members of "the" church (18-15).
It would seem that Matthew was confused while writing these verses, perhaps between different sources of his information, and most certainly about the chronology of Jesus and the establishment of the church.

What exactly does that have to do with the OP question?
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
Jesus does not play tricks with words. however some things that are reported ring true and others do not.(18-20) says that when two or three are gathered in his name he will be amongst us.
If (18-19) is about praying, it does not say so. It seems to be about the folly of asking for things. but seems incomplete in its self.
In the Anglican church we do not pray for things to "Happen" we pray "that if it be thy will...." in that... we bring things before God for his consideration.
 

Ken Brown

Well-Known Member
Matthew 18:19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.

"Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.


So according to Matthew 18:19, whenever two (or more) believers agree and ask for anything, Jesus says it WILL be done.

What's the explanation then for all the times such prayers go unanswered among these believers?

Hi Shermana, I have a little different take on this, and it has to do with asking "in My name." Yeshua has a Name that only He knows, and no man does, and His Name is The Word of G-d:

Rev 19:12-13
(12) His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns; and He had a Name written, that no man knew, but He himself.
(13) And He was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and His Name is called The Word of G-d.

So, IF you ask for anything that is ACCORDING to or IN His Name (in the Word of G-d), the Father will grant it. Plain and simple. But you FIRST need to Know and Understand The Name-The Word of G-d, or else it will be asked in vain. KB
 

Terrywoodenpic

Oldest Heretic
What exactly does that have to do with the OP question?


It shows that "I " doubt the accuracy of Matthew 18. Or its completeness. as it transposes the formation of the Church to a time before Jesus death. And lacks even a basis for interpretation of (18-19)
It is unlikely that God Does any thing "because" we ask. What he choses to do is his will alone. Gods will and our own desires may coincide but we have no influence on it.
 

Shermana

Heretic
lol

obviously it doesnt mean what you think it means. If it did, then there would be no sick christians in the world.

Ummm, how does that indicate it obviously doesn't think what I think it means?

Did you not read my reply to Badger?

I even said you were on the right track when you said it only applies to his Disciples.

As in it only applies to Chrisitans who actually do what he says and teaches to do and approves of.
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
Ummm, how does that indicate it obviously doesn't think what I think it means?

Did you not read my reply to Badger?

I even said you were on the right track when you said it only applies to his Disciples.

As in it only applies to Chrisitans who actually do what he says and teaches to do and approves of.


Jesus isnt a magic genie who grants the wishes of his followers. If it were true that Jesus followers could simply ask for 'anything' and it would be done for them, then why did Jesus followers suffer persecution and torture at the hands of their enemies? Surely in such a situation a christian would call out for help... yet christians were tortured and put to death.

Why did his closest friend take sick and die (Lazarus) Surely a person on their sickbed would cry out to God for salvation...and especially someone so close to Jesus. Yet Lazarus died.

Or what about the apostle Paul who described a 'thorn in the flesh' to which he 'entreated the Lord three times to remove'....yet that 'thorn' was not removed and the reply given to Paul was "my loving kindness is sufficient for you"


the verse in the OP cannot mean that we can ask anything of Jesus and he will do it. The scriptures simply do not show that to be the case.
 

Shermana

Heretic
Jesus isnt a magic genie who grants the wishes of his followers

So you'll also have to explain what he meant about how if you pray with your door closed, whatever you ask in his name will be granted.

.
If it were true that Jesus followers could simply ask for 'anything' and it would be done for them, then why did Jesus followers suffer persecution and torture at the hands of their enemies?

From what we know from the scriptures, they had Angels come to break them out of jail even.

We also know that myriads of Christians willfully martyred themselves, sometimes to the point that the Romans even had to turn down their requests to be executed.

"You have ropes to hang by and cliffs to Jump off of".

We can just as easily say that, with much evidence, they WANTED to be persecuted by this logic.
Surely in such a situation a christian would call out for help... yet christians were tortured and put to death.

Again, we have evidence that many early Christians basically ASKED to be persecuted. And perhaps they wanted to die for their faith. And perhaps some of them did ask for help and simply didn't get it because they weren't of the right faith.

Why did his closest friend take sick and die (Lazarus) Surely a person on their sickbed would cry out to God for salvation...and especially someone so close to Jesus. Yet Lazarus died.

And was brought back to life. Perhaps Lazarus simply didn't hear this message and get the memo.

Or what about the apostle Paul who described a 'thorn in the flesh' to which he 'entreated the Lord three times to remove'....yet that 'thorn' was not removed and the reply given to Paul was "my loving kindness is sufficient for you"

Well you know what I think about Paul.

the verse in the OP cannot mean that we can ask anything of Jesus and he will do it. The scriptures simply do not show that to be the case.

The case can be made either way.

So what did Jesus mean when he said whatever you pray for in your room after you close the door will be granted?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
The case can be made either way.

So what did Jesus mean when he said whatever you pray for in your room after you close the door will be granted?


perhaps you should consider studying the bible by 'subjects' and not by 'verses'

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that, no matter what it is that we ask according to his will, he hears us. 15 Further, if we know he hears us respecting whatever we are asking, we know we are to have the things asked since we have asked them of him.

John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one

John 14:13 Also, whatever it is that YOU ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son

John 15:16 YOU did not choose me, but I chose YOU, and I appointed YOU to go on and keep bearing fruit and that YOUR fruit should remain; in order that no matter what YOU ask the Father in my name he might give it to YOU


You might be able to glean, from the above verses, that the 'anything we ask' should be 'in accord/harmony with Gods WILL' that it may be for the purpose of 'glorifying God' and that the work to which the apostles were 'appointed' might 'go on bearing fruit'

So if you are asking to win the lotto, it will not be granted because the lotto has nothing to do with Gods will.
If you are asking for wisdom and understanding, it will be granted because Gods will is for man to come into harmony with him and draw close to him.

do you see the difference?
 

Shermana

Heretic
perhaps you should consider studying the bible by 'subjects' and not by 'verses'
Even better, I like to read the whole books at once and refrain from cherry picking, let alone "passage picking". Although in many cases, one or two critical verses are necessary to focus on to discuss their context.

1John 5:14 And this is the confidence that we have toward him, that, no matter what it is that we ask according to his will, he hears us. 15 Further, if we know he hears us respecting whatever we are asking, we know we are to have the things asked since we have asked them of him.
I should have established that I'm aware it's about asking what is within his will as WELL as living in obedience to what is the truth of the teachings.

So as I said earlier, why exactly is it against his will then to heal Christians from various illnesses, like cancer as you brought up (I don't remember that being addressed) and bring them out of grinding poverty? In this case, one would think that God would heal a true believer and not leave them to languish needlessly, especially in the Tanakh's equating of such suffering with sin and rebelliousness. So thus, in addition to praying for things within God's will, it's also about living within God's will.

Notice how in Peter's epistle he stresses good behavior for the sake of one's prayers.

There's clearly a connection in the NT about one's prayers' effectiveness being affected by their sinful behavior. That is the main gist of what I'm getting at here.

John 9:31 We know that God does not listen to sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does his will, he listens to this one
This is the whole crux of my point, it's about those who do his will. Therefore, those who are sick and in poverty and don't do his will shouldn't be wondering why their prayers don't get answered, it's because their lifestyles are not in conformity to his will.
John 14:13 Also, whatever it is that YOU ask in my name, I will do this, in order that the Father may be glorified in connection with the Son
Same.

John 15:16 YOU did not choose me, but I chose YOU, and I appointed YOU to go on and keep bearing fruit and that YOUR fruit should remain; in order that no matter what YOU ask the Father in my name he might give it to YOU
Same. If they are not appointed and bearing the fruit he says, their prayers are pretty much useless, and it's a surefire indication that their way of life and beliefs are not at all in line with what Jesus was teaching.

You might be able to glean, from the above verses, that the 'anything we ask' should be 'in accord/harmony with Gods WILL' that it may be for the purpose of 'glorifying God' and that the work to which the apostles were 'appointed' might 'go on bearing fruit'
If I didn't make clear that it's about applying to only those who do his will, then my bad. The whole point of this is to indicate that the basic proof test for any Christian's legitimacy of belief in terms of whether Heaven deems them legitimate, is if basic prayers are answered. If they're not answered, thus they are not in line with God's will, both their prayers and their beliefs and lifestyle..

So if you are asking to win the lotto, it will not be granted because the lotto has nothing to do with Gods will.
Arguably, yes as well as potentially no. It could be God's will for someone to use the Lotto funds to make a mission to save many souls, but only for those who are actually preaching what is correct and true and not just their own personal wishful thoughts.
If you are asking for wisdom and understanding, it will be granted because Gods will is for man to come into harmony with him and draw close to him.
Yes, James says that those who ask for Wisdom in sincerity will be given it liberally....(which makes me realize how few are actually asking sincerely for wisdom!)
do you see the difference?
Again if I didn't make clear that I acknowledge this difference, my mistake. I thought I made the point clear when I said that it's about those who truly are obeying and living correctly and not according to false teachings.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
For instance, in 1 Peter 3:7, husbands are told to respect their wives....

"So that your prayers may not be hindered".

You husbands likewise, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with a weaker vessel, since she is a woman; and grant her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.
Clearly, an example of a direct connection between correct attitude and living and the efficacy of one's prayer.

So in addition to praying for things within God's will, it's also about living correctly. Without one or the other, one's prayer will be "hindered".

"If I cherished sin in my heart, the Lord wouldn't have listened." Psalm 66:18.
 
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Pegg

Jehovah our God is One

So as I said earlier, why exactly is it against his will then to heal Christians from various illnesses, like cancer as you brought up (I don't remember that being addressed) and bring them out of grinding poverty? In this case, one would think that God would heal a true believer and not leave them to languish needlessly, especially in the Tanakh's equating of such suffering with sin and rebelliousness. So thus, in addition to praying for things within God's will, it's also about living within God's will.


Mankind have been granted 'independence'....this requires God to take a step back and not get involved when things dont go well for us. In the future this situation will change and he WILL remove all sickeness and heal all infirmities and feed the hungry and fix our environment and our social problems of injustice, crime and violence

but he will do all that through the Messianic kingdom during the 1,000 year millenial reign...not now.

This is the whole crux of my point, it's about those who do his will. Therefore, those who are sick and in poverty and don't do his will shouldn't be wondering why their prayers don't get answered, it's because their lifestyles are not in conformity to his will....The whole point of this is to indicate that the basic proof test for any Christian's legitimacy of belief in terms of whether Heaven deems them legitimate, is if basic prayers are answered. If they're not answered, thus they are not in line with God's will, both their prayers and their beliefs and lifestyle..
Jesus himself said "The son of man has nowhere to lay his head"

His family were on the poor side of the fence....his mother, who was blessed and chosen by God due to her righteousness, was not a wealthy woman. Abraham lived in tents, Joseph spent almost 20 years languishing in Jail in Egypt after being sold by his jealous brothers, Abel was murdered by his brother, Job suffered great loss, John the Baptist had his head chopped off.... do you see a pattern here?
 

Pegg

Jehovah our God is One
For instance, in 1 Peter 3:7, husbands are told to respect their wives....

"So that your prayers may not be hindered".

Clearly, an example of a direct connection between correct attitude and living and the efficacy of one's prayer.

So in addition to praying for things within God's will, it's also about living correctly. Without one or the other, one's prayer will be "hindered".


agreed.
 
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