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If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

Is One Proof Sufficient?

  • Yes one proof would satisfy me?

    Votes: 8 40.0%
  • No, I would need more than one proof?

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Maybe, I will offer my reasoning.

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • I do not see this would prove anything.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • There is a problem, many magicians do this.

    Votes: 3 15.0%
  • Other reasons. (Share if you like)

    Votes: 3 15.0%

  • Total voters
    20

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Do you think you could be content with one proof?

This extract from the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah first addresses why we reject a Messenger

"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"

Then He adds that the darkest veils become the teachings and traditions

"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."

It is the Self of the Messengers that become the greatest way we can recognise God.

".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Bonus question if you want to share, "What proof could we possibly ask"?

I am aware of stories of what some people have asked and that some also were not content with just one.

Many had private thoughts and challenges that they expected to be answered without asking the question.

Thus another question, if you want to share is, "if someone could always do this, is it proof of Divinity, would it convince you"?

Regards Tony
 

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9-10ths_Penguin

1/10 Subway Stalinist
Premium Member
Do you think you could be content with one proof?


If God were to actually exist, how could it possibly be that his existence could only be demonstrated in one way?


This extract from the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah first addresses why we reject a Messenger

"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"

Then He adds that the darkest veils become the teachings and traditions

"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."

This is excuse-making: "they found my 'evidence' unconvincing, but there's nothing wrong with it; the problem is with them."

It comes across as sour grapes from people with crappy arguments or who are just bad at proselytizing.

It is the Self of the Messengers that become the greatest way we can recognise God.

You aren't the first Baha'i I've heard say something like this, so I've considered it before. It's irrational nonsense.

It's begging the question to say that "Messengers" can demonstrate the existence of God, since you can't establish that someone is a Messenger in the first place without assuming the existence of God.


".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Bonus question if you want to share, "What proof could we possibly ask"?

The analogy I use is the Moon. If God influences us and the things around us as much as the Moon does, then the evidence we have for God should be as good as the evidence for the Moon.

... not necessarily the same type of evidence, but similar in terms of quality and amount.

A question for you, though: the existence of a God should suggest all sorts of testable things. If we test those things and don't find results that are consistent with a God, would you think that this is a problem?

I am aware of stories of what some people have asked and that some also were not content with just one.

Many had private thoughts and challenges that they expected to be answered without asking the question.

Thus another question, if you want to share is, "if someone could always do this, is it proof of Divinity, would it convince you"?

Regards Tony

Here's the thing that I suspect you don't realize: it's not like high jump, where there's a specific bar we need to clear and then the existence of God would be acceptable. It's like a race: which worldview makes the most sense?

... and a godless worldview makes a ton of sense. It fits the facts perfectly. For someone to switch from a godless worldview to a worldview with your god, you need to show how it would make more sense than what they already have. That's your challenge.
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
"If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof."

I am not a member of your we and nor a believer in your God. I do it differently, so the poll has no relevance to me.
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
Apparently, “God” WANTS us to believe in him. And he can perform miracles. And the “prophets” had no problem performing miracles in the past apparently, which must’ve been pretty convincing to their contemporaries.

So he should totally -
God can physically show up to a crowd, as well as front of a camera, then he can shoot fireballs out of his fingertips and lightning out of his eyes.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
If God were to actually exist, how could it possibly be that his existence could only be demonstrated in one way?
I guess you are in the "This would not prove anything" opinion space!
You aren't the first Baha'i I've heard say something like this, so I've considered it before. It's irrational nonsense.

It's begging the question to say that "Messengers" can demonstrate the existence of God, since you can't establish that someone is a Messenger in the first place without assuming the existence of God.
I see they can prove God, but the only one they will prove God to, is those that ask from the heart, in true sincerity.
The analogy I use is the Moon. If God influences us and the things around us as much as the Moon does, then the evidence we have for God should be as good as the evidence for the Moon.

... not necessarily the same type of evidence, but similar in terms of quality and amount.

A question for you, though: the existence of a God should suggest all sorts of testable things. If we test those things and don't find results that are consistent with a God, would you think that this is a problem?
It would.be up to you as what you would want God to do to Prove God exists. Can you do that in all sincerity? I do not think you currently could, from the way you reply to this OP.
This is excuse-making: "they found my 'evidence' unconvincing, but there's nothing wrong with it; the problem is with them."

It comes across as sour grapes from people with crappy arguments or who are just bad at proselytizing
If you are not interested, they do not ask you to listen, nor ask you to respond to their given Message, they will not proselytize, they will send you on your way.
Here's the thing that I suspect you don't realize: it's not like high jump, where there's a specific bar we need to clear and then the existence of God would be acceptable. It's like a race: which worldview makes the most sense?

... and a godless worldview makes a ton of sense. It fits the facts perfectly. For someone to switch from a godless worldview to a worldview with your god, you need to show how it would make more sense than what they already have. That's your challenge.
That's no challenge, that would be a path of choosing ignorance over knowledge. Choosing a worldview over the Divine knowledge, is of absolutely no interest to a great majority of people.

Regards Tony
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."
Ahh so it’s a vision test.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
God can physically show up to a crowd, as well as front of a camera, then he can shoot fireballs out of his fingertips and lightning out of his eyes.

That’d be pretty convincing.
God could, God could.utter but one word and compell us all beleive, but from what I understand, God gave us free will, as God wants us to make a choice and allows it to be 100% our choice.

Regards Tony
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
That's no challenge, that would be a path of choosing ignorance over knowledge. Choosing a worldview over the Divine knowledge, is of absolutely no interest to a great majority of people.
I wonder if atheists sounds as arrogant to theists as statements such as the quoted above come across as arrogant.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Would it? I doubt it, as many magicians can do amazing things and that does not make them Messengers from God!

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
"If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof."

I am not a member of your we and nor a believer in your God. I do it differently, so the poll has no relevance to me.
That's all OK, you are the other reason category, all the best.

Regards Tony
 

an anarchist

Your local loco.
No, it's a justice test, are we willing to determine the character of the person who made this claim?

Regards Tony
pretty hard to determine a “prophet’s” character as we are not witnesses or contemporaries to them.

How do you suggest we accurately judge their character? And even if we judge them to be alright, how does that make them qualified on the topic of God?
 

Audie

Veteran Member
Do you think you could be content with one proof?

This extract from the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah first addresses why we reject a Messenger

"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"

Then He adds that the darkest veils become the teachings and traditions

"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."

It is the Self of the Messengers that become the greatest way we can recognise God.

".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Bonus question if you want to share, "What proof could we possibly ask"?

I am aware of stories of what some people have asked and that some also were not content with just one.

Many had private thoughts and challenges that they expected to be answered without asking the question.

Thus another question, if you want to share is, "if someone could always do this, is it proof of Divinity, would it convince you"?

Regards Tony
If any god were smart enough to be a real
god he'd know
1. How to convince anyone if he wanted to.
2. That ever since before he started, that
what he was going to do would not work.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Apparently, “God” WANTS us to believe in him. And he can perform miracles. And the “prophets” had no problem performing miracles in the past apparently, which must’ve been pretty convincing to their contemporaries.

So he should totally -
I see these tests are way to shallow and would most likely not be responded to. The Bible tells us that God does not respond to such shallow insincere requests.

Matthew 16:1"The Pharisees also with the Sadducees came, and tempting desired him that he would shew them a sign from heaven.
2 He answered and said unto them, When it is evening, ye say, It will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
3 And in the morning, It will be foul weather to day: for the sky is red and lowering. O ye hypocrites, ye can discern the face of the sky; but can ye not discern the signs of the times?
4 A wicked and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given unto it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas. And he left them, and departed."

Regards Tony
 
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