If we ask God for Proof we must be content with one proof.

[ChristineM]

I didn't answer the questionnaire as i didn't think any option was suitable.

If a god or gods existed they would know how to prove their existence in every different way, that is one of the advantages of Omni everything.

No god has proven their existence. No messenger has demonstrated the existence of the god/gods they favoure.

No proselytizing has ever convinced me there may actually be something to it.

My view is, if proof (that's real proof, not hearsay evidence but proof) is shown then i will examine it an decide on its merits.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No god has proven their existence. No messenger has demonstrated the existence of the god/gods they favoure.

That is obviously a rational choice you have made.

My rational choice includes the proof I see has been given by God via the Messengers.

We get to accept each others opinions, and we can choose to live in peace with each other, with that diversity of opinion.

Regards Tony

 

[ratiocinator]

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Proof? Proof is pretty unrealistic.

The slightest hint of the merest suggestion of the tiniest morsel of evidence would be a start. As it is, all the endless different, and often mutually contradictory, versions of 'God' are indistinguishable from fiction.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

It can be proof, if the Messengers are all we can and will ever know of God.

Regards Tony

No, that's not how proof works.

 

[ChristineM]

My rational choice includes the proof I see has been given by God via the Messengers.

As per my early post, I don't see claimed messengers as proof but as hearsay. Though you are welcome to believe whatever you want

 

[loverofhumanity]

We are all on our own journey and we all must find our own way. I searched intensely for truth and I found that we are living in an age of confusion not able to distinguish clearly in many instances what is true from what is not. When I gave up I decided if my existence was just this then I didn’t want to live anymore. I was very bitter against religion and all the problems people have caused. If religion is so great why then can’t people of the same religion get along? Why do the religions kill in the name of God? Everything pointed to religion being a delusion and religious people nuts and lacking in true intellectual abilities. People blindly followed but the world, despite billions of so called ‘religious’ freaks was in a bad state. I felt bad and lost hope that there was anything in our world really worth it all so then came 6 suicide attempts. Knowing so much anguish and deep inner conflict I still had the nagging question ‘prove to me there is a God’. I considered God a superstition and crutch invented by emotionally unstable people to lean on and when they gave me that pretence smile that they had ‘found truth’ I knew it was just nonsense and ego talking. It’s like a starving person coming across a stone. Would I eat it? Never on your life the utter nonsense being peddled.

I was abandoned as an orphan when young then adopted by a family which sexually abused me. I had six courses of ECT but there was nothing for me. The God people believed in was a pretence imaginary one where one eats bread and says it’s mystically converted into the body of Christ. No rational or reasonable person can accept this yet billions do. So I kept my atheist beliefs and it was the ultimate truth or nothing. And that was my journey. Nothing but the real thing not the nonsense going around. And if it was real truth then it had to prove me wrong that God is a delusion and figment of mentally deranged people. I suggest people to never be content and keep questioning and not accept just anything but if one is sincere and finds out one is in error, to have the decency to admit it. I found out I had made a mistake and instead of being proud I admitted it.

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you think you could be content with one proof?

This extract from the Kitab-i-iqan by Baha'u'llah first addresses why we reject a Messenger

"...It is evident that the changes brought about in every Dispensation constitute the dark clouds that intervene between the eye of man’s understanding and the divine Luminary which shineth forth from the dayspring of the divine Essence. Consider how men for generations have been blindly imitating their fathers, and have been trained according to such ways and manners as have been laid down by the dictates of their Faith. Were these men, therefore, to discover suddenly that a Man, Who hath been living in their midst, Who, with respect to every human limitation, hath been their equal, had risen to abolish every established principle imposed by their Faith—principles by which for centuries they have been disciplined, and every opposer and denier of which they have come to regard as infidel, profligate and wicked—they would of a certainty be veiled and hindered from acknowledging His truth.…"

Then He adds that the darkest veils become the teachings and traditions

"....It behooveth us, therefore, to make the utmost endeavor, that, by God’s invisible assistance, these dark veils, these clouds of Heaven-sent trials, may not hinder us from beholding the beauty of His shining Countenance, and that we may recognize Him only by His own Self..."

It is the Self of the Messengers that become the greatest way we can recognise God.

".....And should we ask for a testimony of His truth, we should content ourselves with one, and only one, that thereby we may attain unto Him Who is the Fountainhead of infinite grace, and in Whose presence all the world’s abundance fadeth into nothingness, that we may cease to cavil at Him every day and to cleave unto our own idle fancy...." — The Kitáb-i-Íqán

That is the OP, it appears if we want proof, then we should ask of only One and be content with it.

Would One proof be sufficient for you?

Bonus question if you want to share, "What proof could we possibly ask"?

I am aware of stories of what some people have asked and that some also were not content with just one.

Many had private thoughts and challenges that they expected to be answered without asking the question.

Thus another question, if you want to share is, "if someone could always do this, is it proof of Divinity, would it convince you"?

Regards Tony

Yes, it would be nice if one proof could do it. But, like most religions, there are many reasons to believe,and there are also reasons not to believe. How many wrong and/or questionable things would it take to reject a religion's claims about God, truth and their prophet?

How many reasons do Baha'is have for rejecting the beliefs of the Evangelical Christians? Or... why do Baha'is reject the Book of Mormon? Or... why do Baha'is reject Mirza Ghulam Ahmad? For all the things they say that might be true, they all have things that Baha'is believe aren't true. Therefore, Baha'is reject them.

That's the same reason why I, at this time, still reject the Baha'i Faith. Baha'is believe in some things I don't believe are true. So, no matter how many good things or true things Baha'is believe in, it doesn't make everything the Baha'i Faith believes in true. And does "almost" true make a religion true enough to be believed in?

No, Christians, Muslims, Jews, Baha'is, to be a true believer, they all have to believe all of the beliefs as true. Anything less... and what do you have? A person professing belief in a religion while at the same time saying that some of the things in their religions aren't true?

 

[Audie]

Or maybe you are just hearing what you want to hear

Of course.

Esp when specified that it wasnt

 

[anotherneil]

Why do I need this purported God to prove anything to me, including its own existence?

Let's suppose that God proves to me that it exists, and I accept that this God exists; so what?

 

[Audie]

Why do I need this purported God to prove anything to me, including its own existence?

Let's suppose that God proves to me that it exists, and I accept that this God exists; so what?

So now what?
Good question.
What is the appropriate response to gaiining this knowledge?
Memorize a book? Spin prayer wheel?
Eat fish on Friday? Sing praises?

 

[anotherneil]

So now what?
Good question.
What is the appropriate response to gaiining this knowledge?
Memorize a book? Spin prayer wheel?
Eat fish on Friday? Sing praises?

Yeah, and why is it the appropriate response?

Perhaps people would be better off not asking for such proof and not having to spend the rest of their life being in perpetual debt for it.

Ignorance is bliss would be an understatement.

 

[CG Didymus]

Here's the thing that I suspect you don't realize: it's not like high jump, where there's a specific bar we need to clear and then the existence of God would be acceptable. It's like a race: which worldview makes the most sense?

... and a godless worldview makes a ton of sense. It fits the facts perfectly. For someone to switch from a godless worldview to a worldview with your god, you need to show how it would make more sense than what they already have. That's your challenge.

Yes, what makes more sense? Modern scientific views of creation and the world or believing, literally, what the Bible says?

That's no challenge, that would be a path of choosing ignorance over knowledge. Choosing a worldview over the Divine knowledge, is of absolutely no interest to a great majority of people.

So, prior to the Baha'i Faith, and was less then 200 years ago, what was the "Divine" knowledge saying about creation, the flood, the age of the Earth and so on?

Who was being more "ignorant" the religious people or the atheists?

Now we have the "Divine" knowledge as given to us by the Baha'i prophet, Baha'u'llah. And he's against the creation story and the flood and the age of the Earth beliefs also. That old Christian "Divine" knowledge wasn't true.

But... can you tell me if copper will turn into gold?

"For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.​

​

"As for the question of the transmutation of copper into gold, this is possible and certain; that is to say, by means of the hidden science, which in this cycle is one of the special bounties of the Blessed Beauty. The materialistic philosophers of modern science believe that the metals are isolated elements incapable of transmutation into one another; in other words, they think that the essential qualities (máhíyat) of things cannot become transformed. But in the future, it will become manifest and clear that this is possible."​

​

('Abdu'l-Bahá, Letter 440 of collection sent to author from the Bahá'í World Centre, 12 July 1998 at Bahá'í Library Online )​

​

"Considering that a century ago, nobody knew the nature of matter, and couldn't split any kind of an atom, it should not surprise the scientist that Abdu'l-Baha states that copper can be transmuted into gold.​

​

"There may come a time, for all we know, when the mass of many atoms can be changed by scientists. We have no way of proving or disproving at present the statement of Abdu'l-Baha. Just because we cannot demonstrate a contention in the Baha'i Teachings does not mean the contention is not true.​

​

"The same holds true of the statement of Baha'u'llah in the Iqan, regarding transmutation of copper into gold after seventy years, under certain conditions.​

​

"We as Baha'is must assume that, as He had access to all knowledge, He was referring to a definite physical condition which theoretically might exist. Because we don't know what this condition is in scientific terms does not refute Baha'u'llah's statement at all.​

​

"The Guardian hopes that Mr. ... will not let so small a thing stand in his path. The principle of Faith is to accept anything the Manifestation of God says, once you have accepted Him as being the Manifestation. That is really the crux of the whole matter. It is a question of confidence."​

​

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 14, 1955, from Lights of Guidance p. 479, no. 1580)​

​

That's one of the proof I'm working on. I buried a copper penny and some copper pipe in the ground 40 years ago. I can't wait to see what happens when I dig them up in 30 years. To think... I could be rich. Or... greatly disappointed in believing in Baha'u'llah.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, it would be nice if one proof could do it. But, like most religions, there are many reasons to believe,and there are also reasons not to believe. How many wrong and/or questionable things would it take to reject a religion's claims about God, truth and their prophet?

Thanks for joining in CG. I would offer this is a great bounty, God is allowing us a proof, all we have to do is ask with our heart in true sincerity.

Do you want an answer? Then why not ask? This OP is not about proofs, this OP is about the opportunity for an Individual to ask for a proof.from God this is 100% personal.

There are records from early seekers that they offered for prosperity. They would set predetermined questions in their mind before they met the Messengers, saying to themselves that if the Messengers answered those questions, they would be convinced. (Ha Ha A scary thought, testing God)

What they recorded is that when they came into the presence of the Manifestations, they found themselves unable to either utter a word, or they would forget what they were going to ask. Then during the Messengers conversation their question would be answered.

These stories are great to read, I wondered if there were and RF's that had asked for a proof.

Personally I can not recall if I had, I most likely did in prayer, but I have no conscious recollection of determining a proof I would ask of God, I do recall thinking an undeniable proof would be good in my more troubled times of fighting myself over more Godly ways. Maybe I was given am answer in being given a strong faith?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Proof? Proof is pretty unrealistic.

The slightest hint of the merest suggestion of the tiniest morsel of evidence would be a start. As it is, all the endless different, and often mutually contradictory, versions of 'God' are indistinguishable from fiction.

Well, I see the quote gives us an opportunity, it would be 100% a personal choice if a person wanted ro ask a proof from God.

I just see the passage is a take it or leave it choice.

Would some even try, could they do it without preducice?

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

No, that's not how proof works.

Well I see the quoted passage in the OP gives each individual a chance to determine what may be a proof and then ask it of God.

It's can be a proof one choose they see will work.

My guess is, that even with that choice, many will not take the time, nor make the effort to do this.

Regards Tony

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

It's begging the question to say that "Messengers" can demonstrate the existence of God, since you can't establish that someone is a Messenger in the first place without assuming the existence of God.

And that they are somehow "different" from all other humans, and that God has chosen them to deliver whatever "message" they happen to choose to deliver, and that this is the only way that God is able to communicate what God wants.

It's all too, too much to swallow

 

[Kathryn]

I know that my Redeemer lives
Oh, what sweet joy this sentence gives
He lives, He lives who once was dead
He lives, my Everlasting Head.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

As per my early post, I don't see claimed messengers as proof but as hearsay. Though you are welcome to believe whatever you want

As per the OP, I see all have been given the chance to ask a proof from God that would satisfy themselves.

Many may not actually want an answer to this though, or if they do want an answer, may not like the thoughts that will come their way, in other words they are not ready foe the answer they may receive.

I see I was most likely in the category of not ready for the answer, even when I had become a Baha'i, I had a lot to discover about myself and still do. I still think I am not ready for the answers to the prayers I offer.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes, what makes more sense? Modern scientific views of creation and the world or believing, literally, what the Bible says?

So, prior to the Baha'i Faith, and was less then 200 years ago, what was the "Divine" knowledge saying about creation, the flood, the age of the Earth and so on?

Who was being more "ignorant" the religious people or the atheists?

Now we have the "Divine" knowledge as given to us by the Baha'i prophet, Baha'u'llah. And he's against the creation story and the flood and the age of the Earth beliefs also. That old Christian "Divine" knowledge wasn't true.

But... can you tell me if copper will turn into gold?

"For instance, consider the substance of copper. Were it to be protected in its own mine from becoming solidified, it would, within the space of seventy years, attain to the state of gold. There are some, however, who maintain that copper itself is gold, which by becoming solidified is in a diseased condition, and hath not therefore reached its own state.​

​

"As for the question of the transmutation of copper into gold, this is possible and certain; that is to say, by means of the hidden science, which in this cycle is one of the special bounties of the Blessed Beauty. The materialistic philosophers of modern science believe that the metals are isolated elements incapable of transmutation into one another; in other words, they think that the essential qualities (máhíyat) of things cannot become transformed. But in the future, it will become manifest and clear that this is possible."​

​

('Abdu'l-Bahá, Letter 440 of collection sent to author from the Bahá'í World Centre, 12 July 1998 at Bahá'í Library Online )​

​

"Considering that a century ago, nobody knew the nature of matter, and couldn't split any kind of an atom, it should not surprise the scientist that Abdu'l-Baha states that copper can be transmuted into gold.​

​

"There may come a time, for all we know, when the mass of many atoms can be changed by scientists. We have no way of proving or disproving at present the statement of Abdu'l-Baha. Just because we cannot demonstrate a contention in the Baha'i Teachings does not mean the contention is not true.​

​

"The same holds true of the statement of Baha'u'llah in the Iqan, regarding transmutation of copper into gold after seventy years, under certain conditions.​

​

"We as Baha'is must assume that, as He had access to all knowledge, He was referring to a definite physical condition which theoretically might exist. Because we don't know what this condition is in scientific terms does not refute Baha'u'llah's statement at all.​

​

"The Guardian hopes that Mr. ... will not let so small a thing stand in his path. The principle of Faith is to accept anything the Manifestation of God says, once you have accepted Him as being the Manifestation. That is really the crux of the whole matter. It is a question of confidence."​

​

(From a letter written on behalf of Shoghi Effendi to an individual believer, March 14, 1955, from Lights of Guidance p. 479, no. 1580)​

​

That's one of the proof I'm working on. I buried a copper penny and some copper pipe in the ground 40 years ago. I can't wait to see what happens when I dig them up in 30 years. To think... I could be rich. Or... greatly disappointed in believing in Baha'u'llah.

That whole post has naught to do with the opportunity of asking individually from God a proof and if answered would that proof suffice?

It is far easier to rubbish a faith rather than pursue a solid given change to find out. Mostly we do not want to hear the answers God has given us and will give us to hear.

Regards Tony

 

[CG Didymus]

Let's suppose that God proves to me that it exists, and I accept that this God exists; so what?

So what? This is what.

So now what?
Good question.
What is the appropriate response to gaiining this knowledge?
Memorize a book? Spin prayer wheel?
Eat fish on Friday? Sing praises?

No. Those things were from the religions in the past. Today is a new day with a new message... A new "Divine" truth especially prepared for us by God and brought to you by Baha'u'llah, the prophet of this new day. You get to believe in all the things said in all the Baha'i books.

Wonderful things and wonderful laws given by God for all us to live by. Laws that will bring peace, security and unity to the world. Men and women, equal. All the races, equal. All the religions one. All nations will disarm and live together in peace. No more booze or drugs. No more adultery or homosexuality. Why? Because God said so, and those are his laws. And for those that don't want to live by those laws? Hmmm? I don't know? I haven't thought that far ahead. Hopefully, God has.

Oh good. Here's what happens to adulterers...

God hath imposed a fine on every adulterer and adulteress, to be paid to the House of Justice: nine mithqals of gold, to be doubled if they should repeat​

the offence. Such is the penalty which He Who is the Lord of Names hath assigned them in this world; and in the world to come He hath ordained for them a humiliating torment.​

Bahá’u’lláh, The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 37​

And for homosexuality...

"A number of sexual problems such as homosexuality and transsexuality can well have medical aspects, and in such cases recourse should certainly be had to the best medical assistance. But it is clear from the teaching of Bahá’u’lláh that homosexuality is not a condition to which a person should be reconciled, but is a distortion of his or her nature which should be controlled and overcome...​

​

"No matter how devoted and fine the love may be between people of the same sex, to let it find expression in sexual acts is wrong. To say that it is ideal is no excuse. Immorality of every sort is really forbidden by Bahá’u’lláh, and homosexual relationships he looks upon as such, besides being against nature.​

​

"To be afflicted this way is a great burden to a conscientious soul. But through the advice and help of doctors, through a strong and determined effort, and through prayer, a soul can overcome this handicap.​

​

So a fine of gold for adultery and "seeking" medical help for homosexuality. I guess God knows what's best. But what about criminals, like thieves or murderers or arsons?

"Exile and imprisonment are decreed for the thief, and, on the third offence, place ye a mark upon his brow so that, thus identified, he may not be accepted in the cities of God and His countries. Beware lest, through compassion, ye neglect to carry out the statutes of the religion of God; do that which hath been bidden you by Him Who is compassionate and merciful. We school you with the rod of wisdom and laws, like unto the father who educateth his son, and this for naught but the protection of your own selves and the elevation of your stations. By My life, were ye to discover what We have desired for you in revealing Our holy laws, ye would offer up your very souls for this sacred, this mighty, and most exalted Faith."​

​

(Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, par. 45)​

​

"Should anyone intentionally destroy a house by fire, him also shall ye burn; should anyone deliberately take another's life, him also shall ye put to death. Take ye hold of the precepts of God with all your strength and power, and abandon the ways of the ignorant. Should ye condemn the arsonist and the murderer to life imprisonment, it would be permissible according to the provisions of the Book. He, verily, hath power to ordain whatsoever He pleaseth."​

​

(Bahá'u'lláh, Kitáb-i-Aqdas, par. 62)​

​

So, it is obvious that God's on top of this. Just look at how well all the other religions that had a bunch of rules turned out. God's telling Baha'u'llah exactly what is needed to create a perfect, happy world. Or... somebody's telling him these things.