If we were immortal...

[wizanda]

who needs a shave and a haircut in the most desperate way.

Thanks for the personal statements, don't look as scruffy as my avatar anymore.

First, no snakes spoke in the Bible. A shining one did.

H5175 נָחָשׁ nâchâsh From H5172; a snake (from its hiss): - serpent.

You're trying to mix Biblical metaphors like Christianity does, and it doesn't exists Biblically; the Bible clearly uses the word serpent/snake....

The shining one is Lucifer, which happened in the middle of Isaiah, and is ambiguous to if that is a ruler of Babylon that is being spoken about; not another name for Azazel falling from Heaven.

H1966 הֵילֵל hêylêl From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

They were separated from Eden and physical death was brought into the world as well as much suffering.

The basic design of biology dictates there has always been death within a garden, as recycling death is part of the design of life.

Please, learn something about the Bible

Learned loads about the Bible, doesn't mean it all makes sense.

 

[buddhist]

.....we could be tortured and otherwise suffer forever. So maybe our mortality in this life,is a blessing, not a curse because Adam and Eve ate an apple. Or put another way, the curse was a blessing. And the Tree of Life in a world where anyone and everyone has free will, would be the source of that curse--making the Eden analogy make sense? Agree, yes?

I believe that we, as fragments of the All, are individual consciousnesses which remain immortal for as long as we continue to will to exist (as long as we are attached to existence). Reincarnation allows us an infinite opportunity to train ourselves towards spiritual maturity. We repeatedly experience illusions of new lifetimes until we've achieved enough spiritual maturity to regain an awareness of our memories of past incarnations to put that knowledge into use in transcending existence itself (nibbana).

Just as we, as individuals, endlessly strive to transcend our limitations, the All (aka existence, samsara, Brahman, God, etc.) is also endlessly striving to transcend its limitations through us.

Many

 

[Mycroft]

Immortality is a curse, not a blessing.

 

[RRex]

I'd only want immortality if I could spend it with my father and all the cats I've had (12, so far).

 

[ThirtyThree]

Thanks for the personal statements, don't look as scruffy as my avatar anymore.

H5175 נָחָשׁ nâchâsh From H5172; a snake (from its hiss): - serpent.

You're trying to mix Biblical metaphors like Christianity does, and it doesn't exists Biblically; the Bible clearly uses the word serpent/snake....

The shining one is Lucifer, which happened in the middle of Isaiah, and is ambiguous to if that is a ruler of Babylon that is being spoken about; not another name for Azazel falling from Heaven.

H1966 הֵילֵל hêylêl From H1984 (in the sense of brightness); the morning star: - lucifer.

The basic design of biology dictates there has always been death within a garden, as recycling death is part of the design of life.

Learned loads about the Bible, doesn't mean it all makes sense.

Nachash means shining one as well as serpent. Look it up. Also, why would you ever think Yahweh cursed a physical snake to crawl on its belly and eat dust? Did you believe snakes had wings or legs? Again, this, like most things in the Bible is metaphor. The shining one lost his station, hence being lowly (crawling on the belly and eating dust).

You further clarify your complete ignorance regarding scripture when you make it clear you do not understand it. Look, it is not that difficult to understand. It speaks for itself but you really have to read it all in context. May I suggest you actually read the book chapter by chapter, book by book, cover to cover? Also, read it in a manner you do not put your own spin on it. Read it so it explains itself, which it does. I am currently rereading it in this manner and I find it is actually really easy to understand. Try it.

Have you ever even learned that serpents, Biblically, are wise and subtle? "Be wise as serpents but gentle as doves", ring a bell? Do you think physical snakes are wise?

 

[wizanda]

Nachash means shining one as well as serpent. Look it up.

It doesn't, checked with someone from Israel.

"Be wise as serpents but gentle as doves", ring a bell?

The word would've been better translated as 'cunning' in that instance.

 

[ThirtyThree]

It doesn't, checked with someone from Israel.

Read this:
http://tentmaker.org/forum/christian-life/is-satan-a-fallen-angel/15/?wap2

And this:
The answer: The created being that conversed with Eve in the garden was not an animal. There is nothing in the Hebrew that would provide any credible support to conclude that this being speaking with Eve was an animal. This was an intelligent, knowledgeable, and crafty created person living in the garden at the same time, and along with Adam and Eve.

In the Hebrew this being or person is called 'Nachash.' The Hebrew word Nachash is translated to "shine" (like brass) or whisper (as in enchantment). The Nachash was not a literal snake. The Nachash was, to use literal Hebrew, a 'shining enchanter.' He was also 'shrewd' (smooth or slick), as a descriptive term in the Hebrew for 'naked and cunning' in deceiving Eve.

http://assemblyoftrueisrael.com/Questions/Thewordsatan.htm

And this also:
The Hebrew word rendered "serpent" in Genesis 3:1 is Nachash (from the root Nachash,to shine), and means a shinning one. Hence, in Chaldee it means brass or copper, because of itsshining. Hence also, the word Nehushtan, a piece of brass, in 2Kings 18:4.

In the same way Saraph, in Isaiah 6:2, 6, meansa burning one, and, because the serpents mentioned in Numbers 21 were burning, in the poison of their bite, they were called Saraphim, or Seraphs.

But when the LORD said unto Moses, "Make thee a fiery serpent" (Numbers 21:8), He said, "Make thee a Saraph", and, in obeying this command, we read in verse 9, "Moses made aNachash of brass". Nachash is thus used as being interchangeable with Saraph.

Now, if Saraph is used of a serpent because its bite was burning, and is also used of a celestial or spirit-being (a burning one), why should notNachash be used of a serpent because its appearance was shining, and be also used of a celestial or spirit-being (a shining one)?

http://www.therain.org/appendixes/app19.html

So, this person from Israel must have not been versed well in ancient Hebrew. Shining one is a well known translation among many Bible scholars.

 

[arthra]

.....we could be tortured and otherwise suffer forever. So maybe our mortality in this life,is a blessing, not a curse because Adam and Eve ate an apple. Or put another way, the curse was a blessing. And the Tree of Life in a world where anyone and everyone has free will, would be the source of that curse--making the Eden analogy make sense? Agree, yes?

You have some good beginnings I think of understanding how the Garden of Eden can be understood as an analogy... Most of us I think are fasinated by ancient stories and some of the truths they convey.

Just as the Tree in the Garden we were supposed to care for symbolized our consciousness of good and evil and free will from which we emerged into the "world"... Consider also the Tree of Life the symbol of which we are supposed to be moving toward.. and returning to the Garden.

And there is more to ponder:

From the seed of reality, religion has grown into a tree which has put forth leaves and branches, blossoms and fruit. After a time this tree has fallen into a condition of decay. The leaves and blossoms have withered and perished; the tree has become stricken and fruitless. It is not reasonable that man should hold to the old tree, claiming that its life forces are undiminished, its fruit unequalled, its existence eternal. The seed of reality must be sown again in human hearts in order that a new tree may grow therefrom and new divine fruits refresh the world.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 226)

The contingent beings are the branches of the tree of life while the Messenger of God is the root of that tree. The branches, leaves and fruit are dependent for their existence upon the root of the tree of life.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith -, p. 364)

 

[RRex]

Hmm.

What if the Tree of Life is a computer stack? A server farm?

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Oh, I'd explore for a few thousand years or so, preferably in solitude. But it's really all the same in the end, anyway. Hell, I'm only 26 years old and I'm already tired of this reality.

Yeah, if you can see nothing worthwhile here, you probably won't find anything anywhere.

And be trapped in these material bodies? Forever? No thanks! There is no such thing as immortality. Everything is transistional. Nothing lasts forever.

Mind if I borrow your crystal ball?

When you say a hereafter of the infinitely possible, do you mean reincarnation or that the afterlife is symbolic of someone's memory of that person or what?

I don't know that it exists or is possible, and I don't go any farther that thinking that a Hereafter might exist, and there would probably be no suffering.

You do realize the Genesis story, says that God is a liar, and talking snakes tell the truth?

'If you eat of the fruit you will die'... 'No, you will get the knowledge of good and evil.'

When you become fully self-aware, you become aware of your mortality, and understand that others feel the same things you do, including when someone is trying to kill you. That's the source of our innate morality.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Hmm.

What if the Tree of Life is a computer stack? A server farm?

If we ever create AI, it'll probably be a quantum computer "stack" the size of a human brain. And, btw, I think humans and AI will be a good match. We struggle to steer our emotions with reason, while AI will struggle to have the emotions to motivate their reasoning.

 

[Deeje]

.....we could be tortured and otherwise suffer forever. So maybe our mortality in this life,is a blessing, not a curse because Adam and Eve ate an apple. Or put another way, the curse was a blessing.

Seems to be the other way around to me. Free will along with the tree of life was a blessing originally. Humans were never offered immortality, they were offered everlasting life. There is a difference.

Humans cannot be "immortal" because they need external things to keep living...air, water, food, a safe and stable environment....Adam and his wife had all that supplied in abundance, and the tree of life (which originally had no prohibition placed on it) was there in the garden to partake of at will. There was no "natural" cause of death because man was not created to die. Only when a knowledge of evil was unleashed did free will become a curse. It was now exercised selfishly, so that one man's will could dominate another's to their detriment. Cain and Abel for example....within one generation of sin, a murderer was produced. One man's will to kill his brother overrode his brother's will and right to live. And we have been suffering from this abuse of free will ever since. What God promises to restore, is what Adam forfeited for his children....for the majority, that will be everlasting life in paradise on earth. Only a chosen "few" will go to heaven to make up a kingdom that will bring mankind back to God. (Rev 21:1-5)

And the Tree of Life in a world where anyone and everyone has free will, would be the source of that curse--making the Eden analogy make sense? Agree, yes?

The tree of life was already in the garden with free willed people. What created the problem was the knowledge of evil, which led to sin, and sin led to pain, suffering and death. Man dominated man to his detriment.

It was because the tree of life could make humans live forever that it was now taken away from them. (Gen 3:22-24) In imperfection the tree of life would have made things many times worse. Imagine all the terrible despots of the world being able to live forever, dominating the will of the majority with no end to their reigns of terror!!

Thanks to Jesus we have something positive to look forward to as we return to God's original purpose for placing us here in the first place.

 

[Terese]

Mind if I borrow your crystal ball?

What's that supposed to mean? :J

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Seems to be the other way around to me. Free will along with the tree of life was a blessing originally. Humans were never offered immortality, they were offered everlasting life. There is a difference.

Yes, free will is a blessing. We're the only animal that has it. But it's also a curse, knowing of the universality and inevitability of our mortality--without knowing if there's anything beyond death.

Thanks to Jesus we have something positive to look forward to as we return to God's original purpose for placing us here in the first place.

A theology that I think is not only wrong, but evil as well. To think that we don't even have to try to be good as long as someone died in our stead with our unrepentant hearts, is to believe that we aren't responsible for our actions.

What's that supposed to mean? :J

Your certainty that there's no such thing as immortality, ever.

 

[Terese]

Yes, free will is a blessing. We're the only animal that has it. But it's also a curse, knowing of the universality and inevitability of our mortality--without knowing if there's anything beyond death.



A theology that I think is not only wrong, but evil as well. To think that we don't even have to try to be good as long as someone died in our stead with our unrepentant hearts, is to believe that we aren't responsible for our actions.



Your certainty that there's no such thing as immortality, ever.

Absolutely. In our material reality, there is no such thing as forever. All things must pass.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Absolutely. In our material reality, there is no such thing as forever. All things must pass.

But what about our souls, if they exist? Might they be immortal?

 

[Terese]

But what about our souls, if they exist? Might they be immortal?

-_-
I keep saying the word material and then you go on saying 'what about soul?'. Our soul is spiritual, divine, pure consciousness, not tangible. Yes, our soul is immortal, unchanging, will never die, or wither, for we are a spark of the Lord himself.

 

[RRex]

If we ever create AI, it'll probably be a quantum computer "stack" the size of a human brain. And, btw, I think humans and AI will be a good match. We struggle to steer our emotions with reason, while AI will struggle to have the emotions to motivate their reasoning.

The universe is a very big neighborhood. You never know . . .

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

The universe is a very big neighborhood. You never know . . .

Big, and mysterious.

 

[Deeje]

Yes, free will is a blessing. We're the only animal that has it. But it's also a curse, knowing of the universality and inevitability of our mortality--without knowing if there's anything beyond death.

The Bible tells us exactly what is beyond death...it's called resurrection. And for the majority, it will be just like it was for Lazarus. Where did Jesus say Lazarus was before he raised him back to life? (John 11:11-14)

A theology that I think is not only wrong, but evil as well. .

You're just saying that because it bursts your "everyone is going to heaven" bubble. The Bible does not promise heaven to any but those chosen to rule as "kings and priests" with Christ in his kingdom. These are the ones who receive the "first resurrection" (Rev 20:6) They are raised to heavenly life before all others. (John 5:28, 29)

Think about it.....kings need subjects, correct? Who are they?
Priests need sinner so that they can perform their role as priests....all who go to heaven put off their sinful flesh and are granted immortal life in heaven. They are no longer sinners.
So who are the one for whom these rulers act as priests?It makes no sense for everyone to go to heaven because that was never in God's first purpose. Read Genesis. No one would have gone to heaven if Adam had simply obeyed his Creator. Jesus' sacrifice would never have been needed.....don't you see?

To think that we don't even have to try to be good as long as someone died in our stead with our unrepentant hearts, is to believe that we aren't responsible for our actions

Whoa...what makes you think that we aren't responsible for our actions? Jesus died in our place..that is what the scriptures say...are you arguing with them? He died to release us from the sin of Adam...the one that leads to aging sickness and death...but we are totally responsible for what we do in this life. We have God's instructions...all we need to do is follow them.

Your certainty that there's no such thing as immortality, ever.

No there is immortality...but there is also something called everlasting life.....they are not the same.[/quote]