If you allow homosexuals marriage then...

[Revasser]

Good point.

Jmoum, yes it's true that the majority of people are attracted to members of the opposite sex. Why do you assume from that there is a moral prescription to be heterosexual?

The majority of people are also right-handed. Am I a "deviant" for being left-handed? If so, what does that mean morally? And if not, why is it different from sexual orientation?

<1950's Catholic school teacher>

Writing with your left hand is a sign of the DEVIL! Do you like the DEVIL, Lilithu? Well? Speak up!

Yes, that's right. You use your good, wholesome, right hand to write on your slate with. I don't care if it feels unnatural!

*grabs the cane always ready to hand and WHACK WHACK WHACKS Lilithu's left hand*

Now you learn to write neatly with your right hand or you'll get more of that, young lady!

*brandishes cane*

</1950's Catholic school teacher>

 

[sojourner]

Sadly, Maize, it is. When allowing gay marriage will inevitably lead to the allowance of things that are universally despicable, it's most certainly doubtful as to whether what causes such things should be allowed in the first place.

Why are you so hellbent on insisting that the whole society is going to rush right out and become homosexual, polygamous pedophiles??? Homosexuality is a preference. Pedophilia is a preference. At this point, polygamy appears to be a religious mandate for some. People aren't going to change because it's "legal." (BTW...last time I checked, homosexuality is legal...) Homosexual couples have been living together for CENTURIES!!! All we wanna do is give them the same equal protection as other couples who live together in normal -- (note: normal) -- relationships! It's not going to change anything!

Note: Incest is universally despicable because it is a psychologically deviant behavior. Homosexuality...once again...is NOT.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Why are you so hellbent on insisting that the whole society is going to rush right out and become homosexual, polygamous pedophiles???

: hamster :

 

[sojourner]

It is deviant in the social sence, if only 10% of the population is homosexual, as I've heard, the norm is heterosexual.

Hence the struggle for rights.

"Norm" and "normal" are two different terms with two different connotations. Child molestation appears to be the "norm" in some counties in my state. But it is never "normal." Are you willing to say that black people are deviant, because they are clearly in the minority in this country?

I concede that homosexuality is in the minority, but not that it is deviant. Minorites struggle for rights. Deviants just hope to find gratification.

 

[angellous_evangellous]

"Norm" and "normal" are two different terms with two different connotations. Child molestation appears to be the "norm" in some counties in my state. But it is never "normal." Are you willing to say that black people are deviant, because they are clearly in the minority in this country?

I concede that homosexuality is in the minority, but not that it is deviant. Minorites struggle for rights. Deviants just hope to find gratification.

I don't know of an anothropologist or sociologist that would say that African Americans would be deviant simply on account of their race, but their are many types of deviant behavior (some positive - like fighting for civil rights... and some negative like committing violent crimes) that African Americans may participate in as a reaction to their unique situation in some areas - just like the rest of us.

 

[lunamoth]

Both norm and normal are pretty useless terms when it comes to describing human behavior.

And I would be dollars to doughnuts that "on average" divorce is a lot worse on kids than having a stable loving homosexual couple as parents.

I'm wondering if Nikki and Jmoum think divorce should be outlawed since it has clearly lead to the acceptance of homosexuality.

luna

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Both norm and normal are pretty useless terms when it comes to describing human behavior.

It's actually been quite useful for sociologists...

 

[angellous_evangellous]

You can't have babies and a family without sex.

This is an antiquated view.

Homosexual or chaste couples can have babies via IVF or adoption...

 

[lilithu]

<1950's Catholic school teacher>

Writing with your left hand is a sign of the DEVIL! Do you like the DEVIL, Lilithu? Well? Speak up!

Yes, that's right. You use your good, wholesome, right hand to write on your slate with. I don't care if it feels unnatural!

*grabs the cane always ready to hand and WHACK WHACK WHACKS Lilithu's left hand*

Now you learn to write neatly with your right hand or you'll get more of that, young lady!

*brandishes cane*

</1950's Catholic school teacher>

I've encountered uneasiness/judgmentalness regarding my handedness and it wasn't the 50's. (Of course, Chinese immigrants may be behind the times in terms of acceptance of natural variations.)

I wasn't assuming that Jmoun would NOT say that I'm a deviant. Just wanted to see whether he would or not.

It's a good analogy, dontcha think? Handedness and sexual orientation. Both are known to have a genetic component, but both are not completely prescribed by genetics. Both require behavior in order to be expressd, but both exist independantly of behavior. And both have been judged morally wrong for no good reason. (Of course, unlike homosexuality, I think it's been a very long time since someone was killed for being left-handed.)

I am left-handed even when I'm not using either hand, even when I'm sleeping. And yeah, society could force me to conform, but at the expense of my well-being.

 

[Mike182]

Both norm and normal are pretty useless terms when it comes to describing human behavior.

not true - obviously there are differing threads of thought among sociologists, but we can look at patterns of behaviour and see common trends - we can look at school students and see how divorce affects grades, if we see common trends, we can define the norm in that society.

note: saying that one trend is the norm does not mean everyone in that situation will do it, it just means that is more likely to happen than anything else.

i don't agree with this side of sociology, because it relies on statistical analysis, but it is still a valid form of study

i would also add that people judge what is normal all the time, but only notice it when they see something they don't recognise as "normal" - these subconscious ideas of what is and what is not normal have come from somewhere.

i think a new thread would be needed to discuss/debate this point further, but i think the usage of these terms are fundamental in understanding human interactions

 

[Willamena]

...do you have to allow any form of marriage between consenting adults (i.e. polygamy, incestuous relationships, etc.)?

In my mind, it seems like a logical progression.

What do you believe and why?

You can allow or disallow any sort of joining that your conscience and prejudices will accommodate. You're not obligated to logic.

 

[lilithu]

I don't know of an anothropologist or sociologist that would say that African Americans would be deviant simply on account of their race, but their are many types of deviant behavior (some positive - like fighting for civil rights... and some negative like committing violent crimes) that African Americans may participate in as a reaction to their unique situation in some areas - just like the rest of us.

Semantics. Correct denotation, it's the connotation that we're objecting to.

If an anthropologist or sociologist were on this thread describing behavior as "deviant" in the context that you describe, without moral judgement, I don't think sojouner would have reacted. If otoh, someone is using the label "deviant" and obviously tying it to some sort of moral judgement as to what is socially acceptable and what is not, why on earth are you arguing with the person who objects?

 

[michel]

It's actually been quite useful for sociologists...

Only as a concept that is understood to be based on purely statistical data............have you ever met a family with 2.3 Children ? (unless the ratio has changed, that's what it used to be).

I have been hunting down a post I thought I had made yesterday, but cannot find it; must have been one of the ones that got 'swallowed up' by the ether.

Who was it who suggested that Homosexual relationships would lead to poligamy?........I was shocked to see that remark. Why should homosexuals be more promiscuous that heterosexuals?

 

[Revasser]

I am left-handed even when I'm not using either hand, even when I'm sleeping. And yeah, society could force me to conform, but at the expense of my well-being.

You should hear my left-handed aunt go on about Sister Williams' "reparative therapy."

 

[angellous_evangellous]

Only as a concept that is understood to be based on purely statistical data............have you ever met a family with 2.3 Children ? (unless the ratio has changed, that's what it used to be).

I have been hunting down a post I thought I had made yestaerday, but cannot find it; must have been one of the ones that got 'swallowed up' by the ether.

Who was it who suggested that Homosexual relationships would lead to poligamy?........I was shocked to see that remark. Which should homosexuals be more promiscuous that heterosexuals?

In my reading, I've found anthropologists use norms to describe more general practice. I've been studying entire ancient cultures where statistical data is unavailable, but norms, mores, taboo, and deviance are still very meaningful terms...

 

[michel]

In my reading, I've found anthropologists use norms to describe more general practice. I've been studying entire ancient cultures where statistical data is unavailable, but norms, mores, taboo, and deviance are still very meaningful terms...

That may well work for Sociologists.

I took an evening adult education course in sociology a few years back; I found that as long as I couched everything I said with "It could be argued that.................", I could get away with as much nonsense as I wanted to.

Now, talk to a psychologist (or a doctor) about normality, and either or both will look at you as if you are cross eyed.

E.G; If I go down to visit all the homes near where I live, I think I would probably find that most men and women have had either an affair (or have come close to it), during their married life.

Let's be generous, and say I come back with 55 % admitting that they have; will you then accept my published "It is normal for those in heterosexual relationships to be deceitful to their partners ?

 

[angellous_evangellous]

That may well work for Sociologists.

I took an evening adult education course in sociology a few years back; I found that as long as I couched everything I said with "It could be argued that.................", I could get away with as much nonsense as I wanted to.

Now, talk to a psychologist (or a doctor) about normality, and either or both will look at you as if you are cross eyed.

E.G; If I go down to visit all the homes near where I live, I think I would probably find that most men and women have had either an affair (or have come close to it), during their married life.

Let's be generous, and say I come back with 55 % admitting that they have; will you then accept my published "It is normal for those in heterosexual relationships to be deceitful to their partners ?

Yes... normal and norms are very different.

 

[Mike182]

Only as a concept that is understood to be based on purely statistical data............have you ever met a family with 2.3 Children ? (unless the ratio has changed, that's what it used to be).

the statistics are obviously open to reasonable interpritation, that is the statistical average.

if you look at the reason why statistical methods are used, you will see that using other methods is obsurd, unless you have an alternative method

 

[sojourner]

Bull. Look at it this way, if it wasn't illegal to just take someone's car, there would be a lot of people out there taking other people's cars for joy rides. That's part of the whole purpose of law and punishment, to limit and deter behavior.

Two points: First, look at our overcrowded prisons. "limit and deter" doesn't work! Second, "law and punishment" is a concept related to criminal behavior. Last time I checked, homesexuality isn't a criminal behavior.

While Psychological handbooks may say that it's normal behavior, society does label it as deviant behavior. Almost any sociologist would agree with that statement.

I doubt that. Wishful thinking on your part.

Every aspect of sex boils down to family. Period. Physiologically, sex makes babies. You can't have babies and a family without sex. Sex releases chemicals that make you feel good and feel in love with the other person, as a result, making the relationship stronger. The child needs as much support as it can get so obviously it's going to serve this function to keep the two people having sex attracted to eachother so they're more likely to stay together therefore giving the baby a better chance. Sex makes you feel good. When you feel good, you're happy. When you're happy, there's less relationship friction, once again, keeping two people together. Are you seeing a trend yet?

Poppycock! What about hetero couples who can't conceive? This is the kind of horse-and-buggy thinking that shamed and vilified ancient women because they were barren. This is the same kind of faulty logic that caused henry VIII to kill his wives. The "pattern I'm seeing here" is that you have completely bypassed the spiritual side of humanity. There is also a spiritual aspect to lovemaking that transcends any physical, measureable, chemical reaction. Again, if you don't understand that aspect of human love, you're out of your league here.

 

[michel]

Yes... normal and norms are very different.

O.k, fair enough, but my question was (or would have been if I hadn't tried to type it so fast)
Who was it who suggested that Homosexual relationships would lead to poligamy?........I was shocked to see that remark. Why should homosexuals be more promiscuous that heterosexuals?

Is there any statistical data to back up that comment ?