If you don't believe in judgement, where are the ethics coming from?

[Milton Platt]

What's the point of ethics. If one doesn't believe in judgement, ie, is some type of materialist. And I don't mean societal norms, or such, I mean, actual ethics that could be outside of any effect on your daily activities.

Well, I will assume you are pointing to judgement by a god, but you didn't specify which one.

If it is the Christian version, then the question of judgement becomes problematic. It has been said that all but one sin can be forgiven. So even if you have murdered a dozen people, you can "accept Jesus" and all is forgiven. Forgiveness prevents justice. You did not receive the punishment required by the act. What good is the judgement without the consequences?

 

[jeager106]

"If people are good only because they fear punishment, and hope for reward, then we are a sorry lot indeed." -Einstein

Real morals and ethics develop from our reason, compassion, honor, dignity, integrity, empathy and sense of self-worth. It's an innate aspect of our humanity.

I would rather do what is ethical because it's the "right thing to do" rather
than out of fear of punishment for being unethical.
Time for some definitions.

eth·ics
/ˈeTHiks/ morals, morality, values, rights and wrongs; More the branch of knowledge that deals with moral principles.
By this ^^ we can see moraltiy is synonymous with ethics for all
practical purposes.
So where did ethics (moral code) come from?
Well wiki says: Ethics is the branch of philosophy that examines right and wrong moral behavior, moral concepts (such as justice, virtue, duty) and moral language. Various ethical theories pose various answers to the question "What is the greatest good?" and elaborate a complete set of proper behaviors for individuals and groups. Ethical theories are closely related to forms of life in various social orders.[1]

and.....
The epic poems that stand at the beginning of many world literatures, such as the Mesopotamian Epic of Gilgamesh, Homer's Iliad and the Icelandic Eddas, portray a set of values that suit the strong leader of a small tribe. Valour and success are the principal qualities of a hero, and are generally not constrained by moral considerations.

Then there is this................from Wiki
Further information: Jewish ethics and Jewish philosophy
Since the origin of Ethical Monotheism in (Hebrew) Judaism, something Greek-sounding like "ethics" may be said to have been originated in Judaism's up to four thousand years old passed down traditions and instructions of the Torahs (Hebrew:/ˈtɔːrɔːt/, toroth; plural of Torah), Oral, Written,[5] and Mystical.

Then there are the Ancient Greeks with their own ethical codes.
And on and on.
It seems ethics (moral code) is essential to a successful society
going back to ancient times.
The Hebrew O.T. (or Torah) is full of hundreds of ethical poems.
Again. I'd rather do what is right for the sake of doing what is right rather
than out of fear of punishment.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

What's the point of ethics. If one doesn't believe in judgement, ie, is some type of materialist. And I don't mean societal norms, or such, I mean, actual ethics that could be outside of any effect on your daily activities.

Morals based on inherent rights to life, liberty, property and self-defense, are simple and few and obvious to any conscious adult. The problem is those who tune them out in order to justify their violation of the rights of others.

As for judgement, if there is one, its source is ourselves, each watching a replay of his life while seated in the undeniable light of Truth.

 

[Desert Snake]

Well, I will assume you are pointing to judgement by a god, but you didn't specify which one.

So, you believe that it is subjective?
/Not necessarily judgement by a god, however it will do in the practical sense considering the context.



Conversely, if ethics are based on societal norms only, then the issue of conduct becomes merely dependent on the society....right? Or are you implying otherwise?

 

[Riverwolf]

What's the point of ethics. If one doesn't believe in judgement, ie, is some type of materialist. And I don't mean societal norms, or such, I mean, actual ethics that could be outside of any effect on your daily activities.

Empathy.

As for the "point", mutual survival of the group.

 

[Penumbra]

Reason and instinctual empathy.

Personally, I probably wouldn't spend a lot of time around people that feel they have no internal ethical compass or no way to derive proper behavior from context, and instead base their behavior entirely on the premise that they'll be judged. What would happen if their beliefs changed?

 

[Bird123]

What's the point of ethics. If one doesn't believe in judgement, ie, is some type of materialist. And I don't mean societal norms, or such, I mean, actual ethics that could be outside of any effect on your daily activities.

Aren't ethics and judgment just tools that some create and use in the attempt to control the actions of others?

Consider this: Intelligence always makes the right choice. When one fully understands all sides, intelligence will realize that there is only one viable choice.

So which would a God of High Intelligence do things? Ethics,judgment, and condemning or through free choices then return our choices back in order that one, in time, understands all sides? Lots to learn and many lifetimes to bring true wisdom and understanding or one lifetime to fry in a make believe Hell?

Math or Emotions, which would a universe and world be built and running on? Both? Maybe so, but everything must add up right and not merely feel right. How could it all work any other way??

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

Reason and instinctual empathy.

Personally, I probably wouldn't spend a lot of time around people that feel they have no internal ethical compass or no way to derive proper behavior from context, and instead base their behavior entirely on the premise that they'll be judged. What would happen if their beliefs changed?

If you derive them properly, and honestly, the rights on which morality is based will be very simple and very few--only 4 that I can come up with. And they are universal for all adults.

Aren't ethics and judgment just tools that some create and use in the attempt to control the actions of others?

Absolutely! I stress continuously that the simple moral rights have been added to by religions and politicians since forever. Everybody can come up with behavior principles which applies to themselves, and I call them virtues, but morality only deals with our interactions. Morality is simply a reasoned statement of the Golden Rule, of which almost every religion has a version....which is pulls out of the closet every few years or so. And the root all all evil isn't money, or power or the like; the root of all evil is a moral/legal double standard. Every murder justifies his crime by putting the rights or the value of the victim below his own.

Consider this: Intelligence always makes the right choice. When one fully understands all sides, intelligence will realize that there is only one viable choice.

There are a lot of very intelligent people who are very evil. Being moral requires integrity. Deducing what the morality we must live by is requires some intelligence and reasoning, but our self-awareness is usually already there.

Math or Emotions, which would a universe and world be built and running on? Both? Maybe so, but everything must add up right and not merely feel right. How could it all work any other way??

Very true, both are required. I use the analogy of a ship. Without reason at the controls, the ship goes off course or runs aground. And without our emotional engine for motivation, we're dead in the water.

 

[Desert Snake]

Aren't ethics and judgment just tools that some create and use in the attempt to control the actions of others?

Consider this: Intelligence always makes the right choice. When one fully understands all sides, intelligence will realize that there is only one viable choice.

So which would a God of High Intelligence do things? Ethics,judgment, and condemning or through free choices then return our choices back in order that one, in time, understands all sides? Lots to learn and many lifetimes to bring true wisdom and understanding or one lifetime to fry in a make believe Hell?

Math or Emotions, which would a universe and world be built and running on? Both? Maybe so, but everything must add up right and not merely feel right. How could it all work any other way??

I believe that there are some problems with karma, and the concept, of, say moksha or realization. Ie, is it a good assumption, that people suffer for some past life karma, ? If you aren't talking about that, just let me know. But reading your comments , made me think of the practicality of such a situation.

 

[Revoltingest]

What's the point of ethics. If one doesn't believe in judgement, ie, is some type of materialist. And I don't mean societal norms, or such, I mean, actual ethics that could be outside of any effect on your daily activities.

Ethics are an emergent property of culture & genetics.
(Sounds fancy when said that way!)

 

[Revoltingest]

That's true, however there has to be more than that, imo. I almost wrote morals instead of ethics, in the OP, but this is fine, btw.

Why must there be more?

 

[Revoltingest]

Because people seem to think there is more, even if they preface their opinion otherwise. For example, why did we not just get a bunch of ''it's relative to the culture'', answers. That seems completely reasonable from a materialist standpoint, imo. If I were a materialist, that would be my first answer. *shrugs*

People "seem to think" many things, eg, Obama is the greatest president ever, God forbids gay marriage, extended warranties are a great idea.
But we can't really judge what is true from such things.

 

[ThePainefulTruth]

People "seem to think" many things, eg, Obama is the greatest president ever, God forbids gay marriage, extended warranties are a great idea.
But we can't really judge what is true from such things.

Extended warranties......What????