If you don't believe that Jesus is God, then who is the deity in Genesis?

[Unveiled Artist]

If Jesus is another entity, as you propose, then, how can the angels, /or whoever,,, worship Jesus as they would also the father? You have just introduced polytheism to your theory.

I asked if Jesus was an entity to you because you said below that god the father is an entity (agreed to my question); so, since god the father is the only god/creator there is, I'd come to the conclusion you are saying Jesus is an entity as well.

If we kept with Jesus as god theory and then separate father as god, then you'll have two gods one human and one entity-that's polytheism.

Great, so another entity, that has divinity. Don't you hold the position that the father has no form? Wouldn't be next to Jesus, really.

The father has no form. He's an entity. Jesus has form. Unless we're talking about metaphysics, making an entity without form someone with form but still saying it is without form (father) then with form at the same time (Jesus) is very odd.

Keep it simple:

Father (entity) Creator
Jesus (human-not an average human) Savior
Holy Spirit (spirit) Comforter

'Came from G-d'? Don't you mean, is ''half'' deity? /human mother? Do you think He is a demi-god?

No. That's another metaphysical look. No, it's more he has the spirit of his father because he is in union with his father. They share natures that's why Jesus isn't a mere or average human. He is still human, not god/father.

That's another reason Jesus isn't your average human. He was born miraculously. That doesn't make him god, just highly blessed and chosen.

What do you mean 'human and have the divinity of his father'? What does that mean to you. Do you think that Jesus is a 'prophet', /he isn't, but that's another argument/, who is just higher than other Rabbi fishermen? We need explanations for what you mean by these statements.

Scriptural, no he isn't a prophet like Moses, etc. His father chose him over the prophet as the High Prophet because his role was (according to mainstream Christianity) save Christians from their sins. He isn't a prophet (according to scripture) because his role is severely different than the former Prophets.

In my personal opinion, he seems more like a prophet than a high prophet only because he had a message, just as the other prophet. He did miracles with the faith in his father, like the other prophets. He gave his life/his devotion to his father, like the other prophets. The only thing that's different is the roles and the nature of Jesus compared to the other prophets. Jesus role was to save humanity. He was also in perfect union with his father where someone like Moses and Abraham had their mess ups but were still obedient to their father.

Pretty much. Didn't you state that Jesus 'shares in the divinity of the father'? Are you now stating that He doesn't?

God is the father and Jesus is the son. If Jesus is the creator, he would also be the father.​

I stated that god is the father and Jesus is his son. IF Jesus were the creator, he would also be the father as well.

Because ''Jesus'', is God. He is an aspect of God.

He either Is god or an aspect of him. In scripture, aspect is more closer to how they describe Jesus' relation to his father. They don't say that Jesus is god just a representation, mirror of, image of, high prophet of, son of but never Is.

Jesus in spirit form isn't ''human''. As you are delineating a definition between human and deity. That's fine. It's better for practical purposes.

His spirit side, I guess you can say, isn't god, though. We are all spirits, just as he, and being spirit defines our identity. My identity is in The Buddha. Jesus' identity is in his father. Christian's identity is in Christ. So on and so forth. We are all human (excluding god the father). I don't understand how that is an issue when it comes to Jesus.

Again, Jesus is 'half' human, right? You aren't presenting a position, so I'm not sure what you mean by the statements.

He is full human with the shared divinity of his father. My point; Just because they share divinity, doesn't mean Jesus is god/father.

The human thing again. No, if He is all ''human'', that's a bizarre imitation of a temple sacrifice, it has no inherent value. That is why it would not be considered legit/ or even happening in that manner,, to anyone who was in that religious paradigm.

Finally, I have some idea of what you mean by human. I disagree. The reason I would see him being human is to be like Christians and so Christians can relate to him as human because to them it's hard to relate to his father, so they do so through Christ.

Since Jesus is human, the Passion etc makes more sense. His pain etc is easier to empathize with. It's hard to empathize or even be sorry for Jesus if I knew he was god. As a human with god's divinity, then I could see (if I were Christian) an example of how I would die and be resurrected. Jesus death as a human shows that humans who accept him, thus his father, will not die but go back to the father.

Animals, doing temple sacrifices, were still animals. They didn't have anything special about them other than their being clean before they were used for sacrificed. Jesus, likewise, was said to be sinless (clean) but he is still flesh/human (like the animal is still and animal). As such, it's more profound. Immoral, in my opinion; but, it is what it is. If a Christian wants to make Jesus god to not see they are relating to a human then that's fine. I, as I said, just find it incorrect technically speaking.

I didn't make the statement that 'Jesus never sinned, therefore He is G-d'.

I did. I don't put words in people mouths.

Himself/ incarnation. //man form Jesus

That is still weird to hear a creator become human but still maintain he is god, mirrored death that he really didn't die of. His sacrifice would really mean nothing because the point of the sacrifice is to relate to his Crucifixion (human i not just his resurrection back to himself.

Actually, Scripture does say and infer that. Your interpretation does not allow you to read it in that manner.

It's not just my interpretation. It's my experience. People forget that when I talk about this topic.

Your version has Him as demi-god? Or a deified human? Who is worshipping a Rabbi fisherman, so forth, Jesus? I'm not.

I never said he was a demi-god. I said he was all human with the shared divinity of his father.

Christians worship the human son so they can relate to his divinity which is the shared divinity of his father. If Christians can share in Christ's spirit, why would anyone deny Christ to share in his father's spirit? Why do you have to make him god in order to be in union with him?

any word describing God, the titles, //names basically. It doesn't matter since I'm only referring to one deity, anyway.

When Jesus referred to his father, he referred to him as a deity/entity. He prayed to his father and was subordinate to him. He knew there was only one father as he told his disciples. He never put himself as his father but as a representation of his father's words not his own.

Once you make Jesus god and Jesus and everyone still maintains that there is a father separate from god, you make two gods. You'd have to take god the father out and just say Jesus is the father for everything to make sense. As long as god the father is there, it's polytheism.

The 'father', is merely another aspect of the Godhood. It's just descriptive, it doesn't mean that it is another entity.

I disagree. Jesus wasn't talking to himself or an aspect or even personified aspect of himself. He was actually talking to someone outside of himself-just as he talked with satan during his prayers.

The way you make it sound, that's way from mainstream Christianity. That sounds more eastern thought mixed in or Gnostic but definitely not scriptural. But people water down scripture. I guess to not make it seems so pagan but that's not a bad thing. (my words)

Rabbi fishermen aren't 'G-d'. If the angels were worshipping a man, it's polytheism, even a 'deified' man. Again, we need more clarification on what you mean by the labels. You need to explain what ''shares in his fathers divinity', means, in a practical sense.

Deity-entity
God-father/entity (Christian definition not in general)
Human-flesh/spirit
theism-worship of one god/father (according to Christianity)
polytheism-worship of many gods (according to Christianity)
Divinity-sacredness, perfection, etc (according to Christianity)

Share in divinity: example, I share (general dictionary definition) my mother and father's DNA but I am not my parents.

Jesus shares (general dictionary definition) his father's divinity (Sacredness, perfect, etc as defined by Christianity) but he is not his father

I'm not a Christian. 'human' is how we /should be / delineating between Deity //gods, and people. If you aren't making that distinction, then you need to clarify your words/labels, so we know what you mean.

Just as Christians say Jesus is an incarnation of his father, I am saying Jesus shares the divinity of his father. Both are fine morally speaking. Technically speaking, only trinitarians and Jesus-as-god denominations believe the former. The Christian denominations that believe the latter makes so much more sense that if I were still Christian, I'd probably lean their direction.

Oh also

[quote[Verses? Verses pertaining to what Scripture states about ''Christians''.
Because it's an incarnation/ the man form. //Scripturally.[/quote]

You want me to provide you scriptures that says...?

No scripture says Christians are Christ.
In both cases, the father refers to Jesus and Christians as children.
How can a child be the father of himself?

 

[Godobeyer]

But what if Abraham were to say, "Before Adam was, I AM."? What would you think Abraham was saying there, exactly, when he clearly didn't exist until after Adam? What would he be meaning by such a statement, invoking the well-known title of God "I AM", in the process? Explain.

"But if ",is not work here.
We analyse what we got.

I believe Jesus (pbuh) is talking about his message, not about that he is God;

 

[First Baseman]

"But if ",is not work here.
We analyse what we got.

I believe Jesus (pbuh) is talking about his message, not about that he is God;

Well, you're wrong. Real simple. You're just wrong.

 

[Godobeyer]

Well, you're wrong. Real simple. You're just wrong.

I am not wrong , real simple .

Jesus (pbuh) never claim he is God , that's Church is claim .

 

[Windwalker]

"But if ",is not work here.
We analyse what we got.

I believe Jesus (pbuh) is talking about his message, not about that he is God;

"I AM", means his message? Why the personal pronoun "I" conjoined with the present continuous tense "AM". That has not to do with his message. When he means that he says, "Believe what I say". No one talks like this and means their teachings. Please try again.

And absolutely yes, "But if" is pertinent. If anyone said this, what would they mean? What if Abraham said, "Before Adam was, I AM"? Would he be talking about his goats and sheep?

And if you want to wiggle your way out of this, then explain why the Jews tried to stone him to death for referring to his message by saying I AM. It is abundantly clear how they understood it. They even said that his saying those words was "making yourself God!". They were stoning him for blasphemy, being a man, claiming to be God. It's right there in the text. Squirm all you want, but you'll have to take a scissor to the page and cut out the words if you want it to go away.

 

[leibowde84]

In
Hebrews 1:10
We encounter the 'father', calling the 'son', /Jesus,, the creator of heavens and earth. Now, we know that the 'creator', in Genesis, is usually thought to be the one God, /the Godhood. If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then how do you square this direct inference?

Here is Hebrews 1:10:
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:

Where are you getting "father" and/or "son" from? Can you quote the passage for us?

 

[Desert Snake]

Here is Hebrews 1:10:
10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning didst lay the foundation of the earth, And the heavens are the works of thy hands:

Where are you getting "father" and/or "son" from? Can you quote the passage for us?

You could start at Hebrews 1:7, in Hebrews 1:8 , it states /who is being referred to,,the son.
The 'father' is addressing the 'son', in these verses.

 

[Milton Platt]

In
Hebrews 1:10
We encounter the 'father', calling the 'son', /Jesus,, the creator of heavens and earth. Now, we know that the 'creator', in Genesis, is usually thought to be the one God, /the Godhood. If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then how do you square this direct inference?

I do not see the word "Jesus" there........Wouldn't the person writing the passage use the term "Lord" to address god? How do you see Jesus there???

 

[Windwalker]

I do not see the word "Jesus" there........Wouldn't the person writing the passage use the term "Lord" to address god? How do you see Jesus there???

You do however see the word Son in there, which is who the writers of the NT say is Jesus. You also see the Son being referring to a Lord, as the one who created the world. I've bolded and underscores all this below. If you read the whole passage it's pretty unmistakably clear.

7 In speaking of the angels he says,

“He makes his angels spirits,
and his servants flames of fire.”[d]

8 But about the Son he says,

“Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom.
9 You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions
by anointing you with the oil of joy.”[e]

10 He also says,

“In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth,
and the heavens are the work of your hands.
11 They will perish, but you remain;
they will all wear out like a garment.
12 You will roll them up like a robe;
like a garment they will be changed.
But you remain the same,
and your years will never end.”[f]

13 To which of the angels did God ever say,

“Sit at my right hand
until I make your enemies
a footstool for your feet”[g]?
14 Are not all angels ministering spirits sent to serve those who will inherit salvation?
​

What are not seeing in there? "In the beginning, Lord, you laid the foundations of the earth" is "about the Son as it explicitly says in verse 8.

 

[ThreeAngels]

I do not see the word "Jesus" there........Wouldn't the person writing the passage use the term "Lord" to address god? How do you see Jesus there???

In the book of Genesis God speaking to Jesus said 'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness' Gen 1:26. After man sinned we are told 'And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day ... 'Gen 3:8 The voice of God walking was Jesus as we are told in the book of John that Jesus is the Word and that the Word became flesh, see John 1:1, 14.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Genesis, being an older account, would most likely be discussing the Council of El (a divine council not ruled by Yahweh until it was overtaken ... guess Satan didn't invent heavenly rebellion), not Jesus.

 

[First Baseman]

I am not wrong , real simple .

Jesus (pbuh) never claim he is God , that's Church is claim .

You have already been shown that you are wrong about that. Jesus did say that He and the Father are One and you know it. You just like to twist the wording around to suit your own purpose.

 

[Godobeyer]

You have already been shown that you are wrong about that. Jesus did say that He and the Father are One and you know it. You just like to twist the wording around to suit your own purpose.

One is not forcely means in divine , it's could be also in message.

There is also Jesus(pbuh) pray to God , and prostrate there.

If you told me Jesus(pbuh) praied to him self , that would be insane.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

In the book of Genesis God speaking to Jesus said 'And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness' Gen 1:26. After man sinned we are told 'And they heard the voice of the LORD God walking in the garden in the cool of the day ... 'Gen 3:8 The voice of God walking was Jesus as we are told in the book of John that Jesus is the Word and that the Word became flesh, see John 1:1, 14.

Yes, the 'us' of Genesis is God talking to the one who is the 'beginning of the creation by God' - Revelation 1:5; Revelation 3:14 - the pre-human Jesus.

The ' Word ' is Not God, but Jesus.
The same Greek grammar rule applies at John 1:1 and at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B.
KJV added the letter ' a ' at Acts of the Apostles 28:6 B, and omitted the letter ' a ' at John 1 even though the same Greek grammar rule applies in both verses.
Psalms 90:2 says God is from everlasting ( meaning No beginning )
So, Jesus was Not 'before' the beginning as God was before the beginning - Revelation 3:14
Who resurrected the dead Jesus out of the grave -> Acts of the Apostles 2:31-32; Acts of the Apostles 3:15; Acts of the Apostles 5:30; Colossians 2:12
Even the resurrected ascended-to-heaven Jesus still thinks he has a God over him - Revelation 3:12; Hebrews 9:24

KJV uses all upper-case letters (LORD) where the Tetragrammation (YHWH) name appears such as KJV Psalms 110
The Lord in some lower-case letters stands for the Lord Jesus - Psalms 110:4-6
So, LORD/Lord are simply titles and Not personal names.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

This thread title is still making me think of Guinness for some reason.

 

[First Baseman]

One is not forcely means in divine , it's could be also in message.

There is also Jesus(pbuh) pray to God , and prostrate there.

If you told me Jesus(pbuh) praied to him self , that would be insane.

God is three persons. Yes, you can go insane trying to understand it but it's best if you just accept Him for who He is.

 

[Godobeyer]

God is three persons. Yes, you can go insane trying to understand it but it's best if you just accept Him for who He is.

I would not be "neglige my mind" or being insane to accept that God is three .

Or
He "suicided" die (or being killed) on cross for my sins.

 

[First Baseman]

I would not be "neglige my mind" or being insane to accept that God is three .

Or
He "suicided" die (or being killed) on cross for my sins.

 

[12jtartar]

In
Hebrews 1:10
We encounter the 'father', calling the 'son', /Jesus,, the creator of heavens and earth. Now, we know that the 'creator', in Genesis, is usually thought to be the one God, /the Godhood. If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then how do you square this direct inference?

syncretic,
If you have access to a Literal Bible, a concordance, or Interlinier Bible, you will see that in Scriptures Genesis 2:4-7, the Personal Name of God is used; Jehovah.
Many Bibles do not use God's Name in the Holy Scriptures, thus causing a problem, because the use of lord in the Christian Greek Scriptures, many time does not make it clear whether Jesus, lord, or God Lord, is spoken about.
Many Bibles use the practice of using all capital letters, Either LORD, or GOD, in the text as a substitute for God's Personal Name or Proper Name. In the Original Autographs, in Hebrew the word was YHWH or JHVH. In English the interpretation has been used for hundreds of years, Jehovah. Jesus is Jehovah's son, the very first of Jehovah's creations, Colossians 1:15, Revelation 3:14. All other things were created through Jesus and for Jesus, that is why Jesus is before all other things, Colossians 1:16,17, Hebrews 1:2. Notice that Jesus is called the Image of the invisible God. An image is not the real thing!! 2Corinthians 4:3,4, repeats this truth, as does Hebrews 1:3. 1Corinthians 8:6 also shows this principle. Same or John 1:6-14.
Remember, Jesus said that his father is the ONE true God, John 17:3 Jesus said that the Father is greater than he is, John 14:28, and the Father is his God, just as He is ours, John 20:17. In several books of he Christian Greek Scriptures, in the first few verses Paul speaks of the God and Father of our lord Jesus Christ, 2Corinthians 1:3, Ephesians 1:3, Colossians 1:3.
The Bible tells us that Jehovah is The Almighty God!!! The term Almihty is mutually exclusive, there cannot be two Almighty Persons!!!

 

[rusra02]

In
Hebrews 1:10
We encounter the 'father', calling the 'son', /Jesus,, the creator of heavens and earth. Now, we know that the 'creator', in Genesis, is usually thought to be the one God, /the Godhood. If you do not believe that Jesus is God, then how do you square this direct inference?

"Why does Hebrews 1:10-12 quote Psalm 102:25-27 and apply it to the Son, when the psalm says that it is addressed to God? Because the Son is the one through whom God performed the creative works there described by the psalmist. (See Colossians 1:15, 16; Proverbs 8:22, 27-30.) It should be observed in Hebrews 1:5b that a quotation is made from 2 Samuel 7:14 and applied to the Son of God. Although that text had its first application to Solomon, the later application of it to Jesus Christ does not mean that Solomon and Jesus are the same. Jesus is “greater than Solomon” and carries out a work foreshadowed by Solomon.—Luke 11:31." (reasoning p. 414)