If you were in God's shoes.......

[The Sum of Awe]

This is specifically about this tyrant of a God, or so I see him as, Yahweh, and even more specifically about his doings in the old testament. Let's focus on these examples:

If you were in God's shoes, would you have done the same for either of these?

When the world was full of wicked sin, would you have flooded the earth like Yahweh had? If so, why not another route? If not, what would you have done instead?

Personally, if I were almighty, I would have obliterated the wicked. Not destroy the world with heavy waters and rain, and destroy all (but two of each species) of every animal. It would be unjust to do such a thing if I could just un-create the evil being. If I wanted to flood the earth to eliminate all the evil, I'd have to make sure the water would reach me as well.

When 42 children poked fun at prophet Elisha (only in words, no sticks or stones), would you have made a couple bears maul them? If so, that is very twisted. If not, what would you have done instead?

My mentality may be pretty dark, sometimes burying a dying runt in corpses of its dead brothers and sisters, but that is nowhere near as bad as feeding 42 children to bears. Perhaps I'm overlooking this whole scenario, because by the looks of it, according to many followers of Yahweh, if Yahweh were to replicate what Jigsaw did in the Saw movies, he would've been morally just to do so.


If you answered that you would have done these things differently, and you still aren't convinced that Yahweh is morally corrupt, then why is it alright for Yahweh to do these things when you wouldn't even dare?

 

[bobhikes]

This is specifically about this tyrant of a God, or so I see him as, Yahweh, and even more specifically about his doings in the old testament. Let's focus on these examples:

If you were in God's shoes, would you have done the same for either of these?

When the world was full of wicked sin, would you have flooded the earth like Yahweh had? If so, why not another route? If not, what would you have done instead?

Personally, if I were almighty, I would have obliterated the wicked. Not destroy the world with heavy waters and rain, and destroy all (but two of each species) of every animal. It would be unjust to do such a thing if I could just un-create the evil being. If I wanted to flood the earth to eliminate all the evil, I'd have to make sure the water would reach me as well.

When 42 children poked fun at prophet Elisha (only in words, no sticks or stones), would you have made a couple bears maul them? If so, that is very twisted. If not, what would you have done instead?

My mentality may be pretty dark, sometimes burying a dying runt in corpses of its dead brothers and sisters, but that is nowhere near as bad as feeding 42 children to bears. Perhaps I'm overlooking this whole scenario, because by the looks of it, according to many followers of Yahweh, if Yahweh were to replicate what Jigsaw did in the Saw movies, he would've been morally just to do so.


If you answered that you would have done these things differently, and you still aren't convinced that Yahweh is morally corrupt, then why is it alright for Yahweh to do these things when you wouldn't even dare?

If I was in God shoe's I would give everyone a choice. I would let them know I exist, what I can do and what I want and then have them decide to stay on earth or live in heaven. On earth I would stay out of affairs and in heaven live with the others.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

If I was in God shoe's I would give everyone a choice. I would let them know I exist, what I can do and what I want and then have them decide to stay on earth or live in heaven. On earth I would stay out of affairs and in heaven live with the others.

Interesting.

But, to prevent the thread from derailing, I wanted to focus on those specific events.

 

[ametist]

In every disaster, god blends existence of one or some of its angels directly into the disaster. It just looks like a disaster to us but it is always secure.
Some grown up individuals can be more naive and fragile, and innocent than some children.When some kids are killed by a bear you cant know what those kids really felt. You just read they are just killed by a bear and come to a conclusion depending on your own culture, persona,past knowledge and assumptions.
If i were in gods shoes i would just give a lot of opportunies to people to question and love themselves and others and this is exactly what you do already.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

In every disaster, god blends existence of one or some of its angels directly into the disaster. It just looks like a disaster to us but it is always secure.

Where do you draw this conclusion from?

When some kids are killed by a bear you cant know what those kids really felt.

Either they felt intense pain and they would be unjustly eaten alive, or they would have not felt pain but they still were unjustly eaten alive, and the latter really just makes it more pointless.

You just read they are just killed by a bear and come to a conclusion depending on your own culture, persona,past knowledge and assumptions.

If you can't know what they really felt, how are you so sure angels are chimed in to make them feel no pain?

If i were in gods shoes i would just give a lot of opportunies to people to question and love themselves and others and this is exactly what you do already.

So you would not have flooded the earth? You would not have fed 42 kids to bears?

 

[idav]

In gods shoes I would be nipping evil at the source as it surfaces. I'd probably get pretty good with some lightening bolts.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

In gods shoes I would be nipping evil at the source as it surfaces. I'd probably get pretty good with some lightening bolts.

The point of this thread is mainly to compare the morality of an individual (Christian more preferred but for anyone) with the Christian God and tie up loose ends on why it is evident Yahweh is a tyrant.

I like where you're going with that though. I probably would've said similar, but I wanted to avoid the approach that God appears evil because he doesn't want to interfere with freewill, so I answered with options that wouldn't interrupt freewill any more than it did in the original case.

Perhaps the true evil of reality is only that from where it stems: The being solely responsible for its existence, the being that is evidently insane beyond that of the average dictator and walking proof that power corrupts (but multiply that with omnipotence). An out of control, Canaanite war god that made its way to the top and turned the other gods to relics in jealousy. This being is Yahweh, and I have yet to see ANY justification for his stubborn acts.

He bruises us for his own laughs. He makes a very beautiful thing and sets it in front of our eyes but heats it so that when we touch it we get burnt. He sets out a banquet of food in front of our eyes but demands that we crawl and eat the dirt instead. We thank him for the moments that we are not being beaten by his will, and praise him as a merciful God, but he eventually slaps us in the face again and if we dare curse at him for it, the punishment will be twice as severe until we shrug off this bullying wit of his.

What kind of mercy is there with hellfire, and global floods, and bears eating children for calling names? It not only shows his messed up system of morality, but it shows how weak minded the prophets are if they don't understand that kids will be kids, and yet he can't handle being made fun of...

I'm just trying to understand how people can still follow him when they know he has done acts that would otherwise lead a man into a life sentence in the loony bin.

 

[LuisDantas]

Those two episodes are a good sample of the reasons why I'm certain that the God of the Bible is either a full human invention or not worth caring about.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

If I were God, I would've wiped out the human race a long time ago.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The point of this thread is mainly to compare the morality of an individual (Christian more preferred but for anyone) with the Christian God and tie up loose ends on why it is evident Yahweh is a tyrant.

Why aren't you asking Jews that? Why single out Christians? As a Christian, I believe my God died a torturous death on a cross for a pathetic species that didn't deserve it - us. Are you willing to do that?

Oh, and I don't take the OT literally.

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Why aren't you asking Jews that? Why single out Christians? As a Christian, I believe my God died a torturous death on a cross for a pathetic species that didn't deserve it - us. Are you willing to do that?

Oh, and I don't take the OT literally.

Mainly because I have been around Christianity as I grew up, it's what I'm used to and the only religious organization I have had any physical involvement with. It would be great if Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians even came to answer these questions; but I know too little about them to know what kind of position they'd hold.

I am definitely not willing to sacrifice myself for the human race. I also do not claim moral responsibility beyond that which I interact with. If I were to interact with all of humanity, that's when that would kick in.

But does that really make up for it all? In my opinion, doing good deeds doesn't automatically mean you're forgiven for the bad deeds that are done. God has done some pretty nasty sh**, alongside that of wonderful things.

Slapping a person in the face on multiple occasions, and then give them a five dollar bill on other occasions, totally irrelevant to the slap, doesn't make it OK to slap the person.


Out of curiosity, what does the mauling of bears represent if not literal? Don't call people names or two bears will eat you? If that's the moral of the story, why is it so extreme? I'd even call it misleading, because that's not the actual outcome.

And the flood? What does that represent? That's pretty extreme as well - killing all of man, all of animals (both with exceptions), all of habitat, etc. just for the wicked is similar to killing someone to cure them of an infestation.

Literal or not, the character known as God, at least how he is depicted (in the main scripture especially), has done incredibly nasty things.

Either murdering children with bears is morally good, or the God of the Bible is evil. This doesn't imply that God is in reality if you don't take the OT literally, only the character known as God in the Bible is. And I'd be surprised if someone could say "Yes, the Bible centers around a tyrant" and still call themselves a Christian.

 

[Gjallarhorn]

When the world was full of wicked sin, would you have flooded the earth like Yahweh had? If so, why not another route? If not, what would you have done instead?

If the world was full of wickedness, and I am God, then it would be by design. Nothing occurs without the consent of an omnipotent being.

When 42 children poked fun at prophet Elisha (only in words, no sticks or stones), would you have made a couple bears maul them? If so, that is very twisted. If not, what would you have done instead?

I would have done nothing, for as an omnipotent god I have nothing to gain by interacting with (or even creating) the universe.

 

[Awkward Fingers]

I'd just be thrilled to hear how sudden death by flood, or being mauled by bears doesn't count as "violating someone's free will" when I keep hearing that argument used for why god can't stop, say a child abuser in the act..can't stop someone doing bad, that's free will!! Unless we have bears handy...

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Mainly because I have been around Christianity as I grew up, it's what I'm used to and the only religious organization I have had any physical involvement with. It would be great if Jews, Muslims, Zoroastrians even came to answer these questions; but I know too little about them to know what kind of position they'd hold.

Fair enough.

I am definitely not willing to sacrifice myself for the human race. I also do not claim moral responsibility beyond that which I interact with. If I were to interact with all of humanity, that's when that would kick in.

Well, then you're at least more selfish than Jesus. I am, too.

Out of curiosity, what does the mauling of bears represent if not literal? Don't call people names or two bears will eat you? If that's the moral of the story, why is it so extreme? I'd even call it misleading, because that's not the actual outcome.

I think its a story that is supposed to point out respect for holy people and respect for elders. The OT has a lot of morality tales like that that aren't necessarily literal. Onan is one of them. Job is another one.

And the flood? What does that represent? That's pretty extreme as well - killing all of man, all of animals (both with exceptions), all of habitat, etc. just for the wicked is similar to killing someone to cure them of an infestation.

The flood story was a common Semitic myth, going back to the Sumerians. It makes sense that cultures by bodies of water would have those. It may be a way of explaining some catastrophic event that happened long ago. For Christians, it's also a foreshadowing of the Church as an Ark for souls.

Literal or not, the character known as God, at least how he is depicted (in the main scripture especially), has done incredibly nasty things.

If you'll notice in the Bible, the idea of God evolves from a more tribal one to a universal God of love and mercy as fully revealed in Christ.

Either murdering children with bears is morally good, or the God of the Bible is evil. This doesn't imply that God is in reality if you don't take the OT literally, only the character known as God in the Bible is. And I'd be surprised if someone could say "Yes, the Bible centers around a tyrant" and still call themselves a Christian.

There's different ways of looking at those things. I don't think the extreme literalist stance is the correct one. My view is more nuanced.

 

[Thief]

This is specifically about this tyrant of a God, or so I see him as, Yahweh, and even more specifically about his doings in the old testament. Let's focus on these examples:

If you were in God's shoes, would you have done the same for either of these?

When the world was full of wicked sin, would you have flooded the earth like Yahweh had? If so, why not another route? If not, what would you have done instead?

Personally, if I were almighty, I would have obliterated the wicked. Not destroy the world with heavy waters and rain, and destroy all (but two of each species) of every animal. It would be unjust to do such a thing if I could just un-create the evil being. If I wanted to flood the earth to eliminate all the evil, I'd have to make sure the water would reach me as well.

When 42 children poked fun at prophet Elisha (only in words, no sticks or stones), would you have made a couple bears maul them? If so, that is very twisted. If not, what would you have done instead?

My mentality may be pretty dark, sometimes burying a dying runt in corpses of its dead brothers and sisters, but that is nowhere near as bad as feeding 42 children to bears. Perhaps I'm overlooking this whole scenario, because by the looks of it, according to many followers of Yahweh, if Yahweh were to replicate what Jigsaw did in the Saw movies, he would've been morally just to do so.


If you answered that you would have done these things differently, and you still aren't convinced that Yahweh is morally corrupt, then why is it alright for Yahweh to do these things when you wouldn't even dare?

Worried?.....or just God bashing?

How about having to deal with an Entity that can create?

And when you consider the various forms of life on this planet........

Ever consider the photos of sea life?...what kind of Creator does THAT?

And when you get 'there'................

 

[The Sum of Awe]

Worried?.....or just God bashing?

Neither. Just curious.

How about having to deal with an Entity that can create?

And when you consider the various forms of life on this planet........

Ever consider the photos of sea life?...what kind of Creator does THAT?

And when you get 'there'................

What?

 

[InChrist]

This is specifically about this tyrant of a God, or so I see him as, Yahweh, and even more specifically about his doings in the old testament. Let's focus on these examples:

If you were in God's shoes, would you have done the same for either of these?

When the world was full of wicked sin, would you have flooded the earth like Yahweh had? If so, why not another route? If not, what would you have done instead?

Personally, if I were almighty, I would have obliterated the wicked. Not destroy the world with heavy waters and rain, and destroy all (but two of each species) of every animal. It would be unjust to do such a thing if I could just un-create the evil being. If I wanted to flood the earth to eliminate all the evil, I'd have to make sure the water would reach me as well.

When 42 children poked fun at prophet Elisha (only in words, no sticks or stones), would you have made a couple bears maul them? If so, that is very twisted. If not, what would you have done instead?


If you answered that you would have done these things differently, and you still aren't convinced that Yahweh is morally corrupt, then why is it alright for Yahweh to do these things when you wouldn't even dare?

I think the reality is that you, nor any other finite human being, is in God's shoes and does not possess the infinite knowledge and wisdom that the eternal Creator does. With that being the case it strikes me as ignorant and senseless to presume that any human, including yourself, could do something in a better way than God has done something or to think you have any ability at all to correctly judge the Creator of the universe,

In reference to the account of Elisha, I think an informed reading of the passage will quite clearly show that those killed by the bears were not...innocent little children having fun. The Hebrew word Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best translated 'young lads' or 'young men.' These were young men anywhere from age twleve to thirty years old. From the account it can be seen that they were not little boys, but a large gang of young men roaming the countryside and directly confronting Elisha, God's representative and prophet, with scorn.

Question...wasn't Elisha very cruel when he sent those bears against those little kids who were teasing him about being bald?
http://http://christianthinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html

 

[Awkward Fingers]

I think the reality is that you, nor any other finite human being, is in God's shoes and does not possess the infinite knowledge and wisdom that the eternal Creator does. With that being the case it strikes me as ignorant and senseless to presume that any human, including yourself, could do something in a better way than God has done something or to think you have any ability at all to correctly judge the Creator of the universe,

In reference to the account of Elisha, I think an informed reading of the passage will quite clearly show that those killed by the bears were not...innocent little children having fun. The Hebrew word Hebrew expression neurim qetannim is best translated 'young lads' or 'young men.' These were young men anywhere from age twleve to thirty years old. From the account it can be seen that they were not little boys, but a large gang of young men roaming the countryside and directly confronting Elisha, God's representative and prophet, with scorn.

Question...wasn't Elisha very cruel when he sent those bears against those little kids who were teasing him about being bald?
http://http://christianthinktank.com/qmeanelisha.html

So, if its ok for god to step in and stop them, why doesn't it happen today, say, when someone is about to shoot up a school, or someone is about to abuse a child?
If good can step in, and stop bad things why did he choose this instance, over others?

 

[ametist]

Either they felt intense pain and they would be unjustly eaten alive, or they would have not felt pain but they still were unjustly eaten alive, and the latter really just makes it more pointless.

How do YOU know?

 

[John Martin]

This is specifically about this tyrant of a God, or so I see him as, Yahweh, and even more specifically about his doings in the old testament. Let's focus on these examples:

If you were in God's shoes, would you have done the same for either of these?

When the world was full of wicked sin, would you have flooded the earth like Yahweh had? If so, why not another route? If not, what would you have done instead?

Personally, if I were almighty, I would have obliterated the wicked. Not destroy the world with heavy waters and rain, and destroy all (but two of each species) of every animal. It would be unjust to do such a thing if I could just un-create the evil being. If I wanted to flood the earth to eliminate all the evil, I'd have to make sure the water would reach me as well.

When 42 children poked fun at prophet Elisha (only in words, no sticks or stones), would you have made a couple bears maul them? If so, that is very twisted. If not, what would you have done instead?

My mentality may be pretty dark, sometimes burying a dying runt in corpses of its dead brothers and sisters, but that is nowhere near as bad as feeding 42 children to bears. Perhaps I'm overlooking this whole scenario, because by the looks of it, according to many followers of Yahweh, if Yahweh were to replicate what Jigsaw did in the Saw movies, he would've been morally just to do so.


If you answered that you would have done these things differently, and you still aren't convinced that Yahweh is morally corrupt, then why is it alright for Yahweh to do these things when you wouldn't even dare?

I do not consider flood story happened physically. I take that as inner experience. Evil is not created by God. It is the product of ignorance out of which desires against human dignity arise and the fill the human consciousness with evil which might manifest in the external world also. When evil increases in the human consciousness, the unconditional love of God, which is also wisdom, manifests as a flood and washes away everything that that is not created by God and brings back human consciousness to its original state. Hence the flood is the symbol of God's unconditional love, wisdom and purifying spirit.
The second story regarding prophet Elisha can be seen as a moral story not to ridicule the Prophets.