Ignorance Doesn't Excuse Your Sin Sonny. Off to Hell You Go

[Muffled]

I believe the message I hear is that you prefer to live in sin.
Skwim said "No. I would only prefer the option that comes with the lesser burden."

I believe having Jesus as Lord and Savior is the least burden one may have. I believe sin will burden with karma and judgement. I believe attempting to be good is a great burden.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe scripture does say that what from dust comes goes back to dust but it also says the spirit returns to God and the spirit does not come from dust.

Hell is a concept that Jesus as God in the flesh espoused. Your view was never expressed by God and never will be.

I believe the scripture never says the body will be cremated (go through a fire) but people do that anyway.

Spirit here is an analogy to the breath of life. Are you sure my views are not expressed by the Word of God? I just gave you Ecclesiastes 12:7. Ecclesiastes is one of the books adopted as Canonic in the Tanach. So, God's Word has expressed my views. "Cremation" has nothing to do with the issue in discussion. Why have you mentioned it?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe the message I hear is that you prefer to live in sin.
Skwim said "No. I would only prefer the option that comes with the lesser burden."

I believe having Jesus as Lord and Savior is the least burden one may have. I believe sin will burden with karma and judgement. I believe attempting to be good is a great burden.

Please don't post something from hear-say if you can't provide evidence. Who prefers to live in sin? One sins whether he prefers or not. I have never said I prefer to live in sin. Only atheists are able of that much. What did Jesus save to be a savior? There are more unsaved after Jesus death than before he was born.

 

[Ingledsva]

The scriptures speak for themselves. If you are led by the Spirit you will know truth, if not you will not.

That is hilarious, and OBVIOUSLY WRONG.

All you have to do is read the posts from "most" of the Christians here, to see the error in your words.

*

 

[Thief]

Can I change the nature to which we were created to? Nobody can, even those who enjoy their lives in delusion.

but God did....in the garden

we were only a species on Day Six

In the garden God did breathe a soul into Man

 

[Ben Avraham]

but God did....in the garden we were only a species on Day Six
In the garden God did breathe a soul into Man. we were only a species on Day Six In the garden God did breathe a soul into Man

HaShem is God; Ben Avraham is a man. Anyway, in the Garden of Eden, attributes were given away to men including Freewill which no one can interfere with, even God Himself. Unless Pikuach Nephesh is called for to be used; and only by God. Pikuach Nephesh is a Jewish allowance to release oneself from a commandment in the case of emergency. For instance, when HaShem would harden the heart of Pharaoh not to let Israel go. IOW, that's when God would interfere with the nature of man.

 

[MJFlores]

In another thread one of the members said "A lot of sin is done out of ignorance."

Question: If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?

"Too bad you were unaware that foolish talking is a sin blabbermouth (Ephesians 5:4) Off to hell with you now."
.

We humans have defense lawyers who could twist the truth for an acquittal but in the end of all things where God is the judge - there won't be any need for defense lawyers as these lawyers will also stand to be judged.

Everyone will be judged - from people of the ancient civilizations and down to our present time. People of different beliefs, religions of different races - famous or not will have a fair judgment.

Now how will that be?

Romans 2:12-16 New International Version (NIV)

All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God’s sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. (Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts sometimes accusing them and at other times even defending them.) This will take place on the day when God judges people’s secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

It will be your own thoughts and consciences that will be the defense and the prosecution on Judgement Day. Then it will be not only be a fair decision but a very excellent decision. Wonderful isn't it? Now since we have not reached this day yet, there is still a chance to be put right with God and how to do it is explained in depth in this video

 

[Thief]

HaShem is God; Ben Avraham is a man. Anyway, in the Garden of Eden, attributes were given away to men including Freewill which no one can interfere with, even God Himself. Unless Pikuach Nephesh is called for to be used; and only by God. Pikuach Nephesh is a Jewish allowance to release oneself from a commandment in the case of emergency. For instance, when HaShem would harden the heart of Pharaoh not to let Israel go. IOW, that's when God would interfere with the nature of man.

and which is greater?
what God did in the garden?
or what God did in Egypt?

 

[Ben Avraham]

and which is greater? what God did in the garden?
or what God did in Egypt?

What God did when He proclaimed: "Let there be light" and the Universe was caused to exist.

 

[Ben Avraham]

but God did....in the garden we were only a species on Day Six
In the garden God did breathe a soul into Man

And in Egypt, God did breathe Himself into Israel.

 

[Thief]

What God did when He proclaimed: "Let there be light" and the Universe was caused to exist.

I would agree....let there be light....
and......I AM!...
to be simultaneous
Day One was it?

 

[Jenny Collins]

In another thread one of the members said "A lot of sin is done out of ignorance."

Question: If what one does out of ignorance of its status as a sin, is it truly sinning? Wouldn't ignorance be a mitigating factor of sinning? Or does god go along with the legal principle of Ignorantia juris non excusa, ignorance of the law excuses not?

"Too bad you were unaware that foolish talking is a sin blabbermouth (Ephesians 5:4) Off to hell with you now."


.

There is willful ignorance and ignorance that is not someone's fault! Neither make someone worthy of eternal torture! You can be the scummiest person, some serial pedophile, or Hitler like person, and even they don't deserve eternal torture!

Even Satan doesn't deserve eternal torture! People may protest about God being angry at all the havoc that Satan has wreaked in the world, and you know what I would tell them? First I would tell them that God created the angel who turned himself into Satan! He didn't create the evil in Satan, but he created the angel who went astray! While I don't blame God for Satan's error, God did nonetheless create him! Therefore if Satan's shocking behavior disturbs God that much that he has to torture him for zillions of years and beyond, then he shouldn't have created him! He did create him, and he is disturbed at what he has done, so is well within his rights to take his life back and destroy him! That is in fact what he will do in the future!

If Satan would face a trial, and every sin of his was judged and a sentence was imposed, it would still have a time when it should end! The belief however, is that the fire is never ending!

Now let's bring up someone like Hitler! If God would give him one thousand years punishment for every Jewish, homosexual, Jehovah's Witness, Gypsy, and all other lives that he took, that would come to many, many thousands of years! However there would still be an end in sight!

Now let's take this in another direction! If there is a decent enough person, say a Catholic who is not considered born again by some Evangelicals, or a Jew, or Mormon, or whatever undesired religion it is, should they have to be right beside Hitler because they were born into or picked the "wrong religion"?

And if the Jewish person deserves to go to Hell, what if he was one of the victims of Hitler? Does God lament so much over what Hitler did to the Jews, so sends him to Hell, and then also sends to Hell one of the Jews that was gassed to death in one of his concentration camps?

Imagine this scenario: Hitler stands before God and he tells him: "Look at what you did to this poor Jew here! You starved him, beat him, and killed him! So I am going to give you a zillions time the torment as you put this poor guy through" Then the next person to face God is the Jew! God tells him: "You are going to get the same sentence as Hitler because you picked the wrong religion" The Jew says: "I was born into my religion, and didn't know better" God says that it is their own fault for not being born again! They say: "There were no evangelicals to preach to me in the part of the world I lived in! I didn't live in the Bible belt" But God sends him there anyway! Then Hitler tells God: "If you think the Jew deserves to be tortured, why are you mad at me for what I did to him! I did on a small scale what you are going to do to him, shouldn't I join you in heaven for being like you?"

 

[Skwim]

There is willful ignorance and ignorance that is not someone's fault! Neither make someone worthy of eternal torture! You can be the scummiest person, some serial pedophile, or Hitler like person, and even they don't deserve eternal torture!

I agree, but as I showed in post 134, your god does not.

.

 

[Muffled]

[QUOTE="Ben Avraham, post: 5111627, member: 60510"]Spirit here is an analogy to the breath of life. Are you sure my views are not expressed by the Word of God? I just gave you Ecclesiastes 12:7. Ecclesiastes is one of the books adopted as Canonic in the Tanach. So, God's Word has expressed my views. "Cremation" has nothing to do with the issue in discussion. Why have you mentioned it?[/QUOTE]

I believe the breath of life is an analogy for the spirit. Jesus breathes on his disciples and says receive the spirit.

I believe so.

I believe you expressed half the word as though it were the whole story. In that way you excerpted the word away from God into your own meaning.

I believe in relation to Hell cremation i something people are apt to experience before they ever get to Hell. I would like to spare people from the horror of waking up buried thinking they are still alive when it is only the spirit that is alive and similarly I would like to spare people from going through the fire of cremation.

 

[Muffled]

Please don't post something from hear-say if you can't provide evidence. Who prefers to live in sin? One sins whether he prefers or not. I have never said I prefer to live in sin. Only atheists are able of that much. What did Jesus save to be a savior? There are more unsaved after Jesus death than before he was born.

I believe Jesus said a person will be judged by what he says.

I believe those who love their sin prefer it.

I believe I am glad to hear it.

I believe athiests are a mixed bag.

I believe Jesus saves me from sin and all others who receive Him as Lord and Savior.

I believe that is not something that can be backed up with evidence.

 

[Muffled]

And in Egypt, God did breathe Himself into Israel.

I believe that is news to me since I have never read anything that even suggests it.

 

[Jenny Collins]

If you thi

I agree, but as I showed in post 134, your god does not.

.

If you think that the Bible teaches Hell fire you don't understand it very well! I have an idea you are going to bombard me with a plethora of scriptures like the rich man and Lazarus parable, "weeping and gnashing of teeth" "lake of fire" and so on and so forth! I really am getting sick of these long debates, but if you want me to tell you what those mean, I will

 

[Jenny Collins]

J

Then what do you do with the scriptures that do show the god of Abraham to be a vicious god?

Matthew 12:47-50
47 “Also, God’s kingdom is like a net that was put into the lake. The net caught many different kinds of fish. 48 It was full, so the fishermen pulled it to the shore. They sat down and put all the good fish in baskets. Then they threw away the bad fish. 49 It will be the same at the end of time. The angels will come and separate the evil people from the godly people. 50 They will throw the evil people into the place of fire. There the people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:40-42
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

​

If they don't mean what they say then just what do they mean?


.

Jude 1:7 does not prove Hell! The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and those cities no longer exists! They are not burning somewhere and the people of that time are dead!

2 Thess says "everlasting destruction" not eternal fire! Just death

You mention the "lake of fire" It says in Rev 20:14 that the lake of fire "means the second death" which is not fire but the final end of! Also says in that verse that "death and the grave will be hurled into the lake of fire" Since death and the grave are not flammable materials like firewood, it can't be literal fire

 

[Jenny Collins]

Then what do you do with the scriptures that do show the god of Abraham to be a vicious god?

Matthew 12:47-50
47 “Also, God’s kingdom is like a net that was put into the lake. The net caught many different kinds of fish. 48 It was full, so the fishermen pulled it to the shore. They sat down and put all the good fish in baskets. Then they threw away the bad fish. 49 It will be the same at the end of time. The angels will come and separate the evil people from the godly people. 50 They will throw the evil people into the place of fire. There the people will cry and grind their teeth with pain.”

Matthew 13:40-42
40 “As the weeds are pulled up and burned in the fire, so it will be at the end of the age.
41 The Son of Man will send out his angels, and they will weed out of his kingdom everything that causes sin and all who do evil.
42 They will throw them into the blazing furnace, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:46
46 “Then these evil people will go away to be punished forever. But the godly people will go and enjoy eternal life.”

Mark 9:43
43 If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”

2 Thessalonians 1:9
9 They will be punished with everlasting destruction and shut out from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might

Jude 1:7
7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

​

If they don't mean what they say then just what do they mean?


.

Since people are not really supposed to cut their hands off and their eyes, and hands are not really making them stumble, than there is no reason to take the fire literal either

 

[Ben Avraham]

I believe that is news to me since I have never read anything that even suggests it.

True that in the very beginning, Moses meant only added troubles unto the Israelites in Egypt but with time, not too long, God was breathed into them through Moses and the Israelites were finally taken over with the Spirit of God which soon caused the Exodus.