Illness/disability the result of 'sin'?

[dawny0826]

I don't believe the deity exists in the form presented by the Bible, if at all. I was responding to your point about god not giving people more suffering than they can bear.

Yes I know. I was simply trying to offer another point of view on the subject. I hear what you're saying. You make yourself quite clear.

 

[Pegg]

I know some Christians believe God sends illness and disability to people to punish them for their 'sins'! How anyone can think that in the 21st century, when we know the cause of many illnesses and disabilities, beggars belief! I even saw stated on a forum once, some 'kind' Christian telling the parent of a disabled child that God was punishing them for their sins. (the parent was no longer a believer!)

Will anyone on this forum admit to thinking God punishes people in this way?

(naturally we can cause some illnesses ourselves by unhealthy living, being obese, drinking in excess, smoking and drug taking)

Absolutely not.

Jesus disciples asked a similar question about a man born blind...."Teacher, who sinned? This man or his parents so that he was born blind?"... Jesus reply was "“Neither this man sinned nor his parents.” John 9:1-3"

Our independence from God is what has led to illness and disease...and sometimes we inflict it on ourselves by our own actions such as by smoking, drug taking, unsafe sexual practices, over eating, unhealthy eating etc etc etc

Adam and Eve were created with perfect bodies and for as long as they were in unity with their God, they had no illness or disease. But the result of independence of God was a gradual deterioration in their physical bodies. This is because they disconnected themselves from their source of life, God. Ever since the human family have been like batteries running low on power.

 

[Misty]

Absolutely not.

Jesus disciples asked a similar question about a man born blind...."Teacher, who sinned? This man or his parents so that he was born blind?"... Jesus reply was "“Neither this man sinned nor his parents.” John 9:1-3"

Our independence from God is what has led to illness and disease...and sometimes we inflict it on ourselves by our own actions such as by smoking, drug taking, unsafe sexual practices, over eating, unhealthy eating etc etc etc

Adam and Eve were created with perfect bodies and for as long as they were in unity with their God, they had no illness or disease. But the result of independence of God was a gradual deterioration in their physical bodies. This is because they disconnected themselves from their source of life, God. Ever since the human family have been like batteries running low on power.

Even if I believed in the tale of Adam and Eve to be true, which I don't of course, gaining independence from a deity who only wanted them as pawns in its game was a good thing. We should not be subservient to any deity, imo.

 

[PolyHedral]

Adam and Eve were created with perfect bodies

Surely a perfect thing can maintain its perfection regardless of any other circumstances?

 

[Pegg]

Surely a perfect thing can maintain its perfection regardless of any other circumstances?

that would not be true for anything in our physical world. We can buy a brand new car and it will be in perfect condition....but given a little time it will soon wear down and require repairs.

If we keep repairing it we can keep it in perfect condition...but that requires continual maintenance. Its the same with physical bodies....without the maintenance of our maker, we have been unable to keep it in a perfect condition. And besides that, Adam and Eve were sentenced to death which was passed onto us physically just as a genetic disease is passed on.

 

[Pegg]

Even if I believed in the tale of Adam and Eve to be true, which I don't of course, gaining independence from a deity who only wanted them as pawns in its game was a good thing. We should not be subservient to any deity, imo.

I know many people believe independence is a good thing. I think a little independence is a good thing too, but in terms of our existence I think we need our creator because he is 'the source of life' as the bible rightly states.

Once removed from the source of life, we begin to deteriorate much like a fan removed from the power point...it slows down until it stops because it has been deprived of an energy source.

But you're right that we should not be made subservient to any deity.... God gave us free will for that very reason.

 

[Misty]

I know many people believe independence is a good thing. I think a little independence is a good thing too, but in terms of our existence I think we need our creator because he is 'the source of life' as the bible rightly states.

Once removed from the source of life, we begin to deteriorate much like a fan removed from the power point...it slows down until it stops because it has been deprived of an energy source.

But you're right that we should not be made subservient to any deity.... God gave us free will for that very reason.

I suspect the deity needs us far more than we need it, if it is a real entity.

 

[Pegg]

I suspect the deity needs us far more than we need it, if it is a real entity.

I take it you dont believe in a 'God' as such

Where do you think the energy required to make all the matter in the physical universe came from? Do you have a theory for that?

 

[Kathryn]

Why so?

Regarding Thomas Szasz - wow, what a unique perspective! No wonder the machine rages against him so.

I think that he's opposed largely because mental illness is big business.

Also, the label "mentally ill" shields a lot of people from taking personal responsibility for their own peace of mind and conscience - and actions.

Peace and inner joy take work. They are NOT the human default, in my opinion. They take discipline and more honesty about ourselves than most people are willing to shoulder.

 

[PolyHedral]

that would not be true for anything in our physical world. We can buy a brand new car and it will be in perfect condition....but given a little time it will soon wear down and require repairs.

Ah, but that isn't quite what you said. I agree that if we were in perfect condition to begin with, we could degrade. But the perfect car does not require any maintenance.

Where do you think the energy required to make all the matter in the physical universe came from? Do you have a theory for that?

Turns out that if you add up all the visible matter and energy with the negative potential energy that comes from gravity, and so forth, you get an answer very close to 0. The answer is possibly "nowhere."

 

[Kathryn]

Even a perfect car will degrade over time - even if it's simply sitting in a garage.

I'm just sayin'.

 

[Misty]

I take it you dont believe in a 'God' as such

Where do you think the energy required to make all the matter in the physical universe came from? Do you have a theory for that?

I don't. However if you think an intelligent designer created it, you still have to explain who created the intelligent designer.

 

[sandandfoam]

However if you think an intelligent designer created it, you still have to explain who created the intelligent designer.

Why so?

 

[PolyHedral]

Because there's no reason to stop the chain of causes with God.

Even a perfect car will degrade over time - even if it's simply sitting in a garage.

But we can improve the car by making it require no maintenance. Therefore the car can't be perfect.

 

[Kathryn]

Well you have a point there. I personally believe that nothing is perfect in this world.

 

[Dunemeister]

Because there's no reason to stop the chain of causes with God.

Sure there is. We are trying to explain the existence of a series of contingent beings. (A contingent being is one -- alive or inert -- that depends upon another being for its existence.) No contingent being can explain the whole chain. Therefore the contingent beings must all find their source in a noncontingent being. This doesn't get us to the Christian god, of course (philosophy never does), but it does get us to a being that is itself uncreated. This argument is as old at least as Plato and has never been really refuted (although I won't say there are no problems with it; there are, as there are with any philosophical argument/claim).

But we can improve the car by making it require no maintenance. Therefore the car can't be perfect.

Why would not needing maintenance make the car better?

 

[Dunemeister]

Hi, MIsty!

I wonder if you have any comment on what I said earlier:

I only meant that a few people have responded, explaining that the view you are rightly outraged about is a small minority view. Indeed, it's not necessary to hold the view to be an orthodox or even evangelical Christian. More than that, the view you describe represents either ignorance of or mishandling of the Christian tradition. I just wondered what you thought about those responses.

 

[Misty]

Why so?

It is just as likely, or unlikely, the universe sprang from nothinness as an intelligent designer having always been there, imo.

 

[Dunemeister]

It is just as likely, or unlikely, the universe sprang from nothinness as an intelligent designer having always been there, imo.

So you think it's equally likely that this whole shebang sprang, uncaused and unsolicited, into existence, as that there was some cause, however mysterious and inaccessible? I must confess that you have greater faith than I.

 

[Misty]

So you think it's equally likely that this whole shebang sprang, uncaused and unsolicited, into existence, as that there was some cause, however mysterious and inaccessible? I must confess that you have greater faith than I.

It is more likely than the tale in Genesis, imo!