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I'm An Atheist Who Follows the Golden Rule

rusra02

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
PackJason said:
It's not about being convinced that a god doesn't exist, it's just that I don't see a reason or a need to believe in a god or gods.

I've asked this question before, but why should I believe in a god? I can't think of a reason.
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Well, the wonders of creation convince me there is a Creator. Antony Flew, the famous atheist, changed his mind and accepted belief in a Creator, in part due to his study of DNA. He simply could not accept something so elegantly engineered could come into existence without an intelligent Maker.
 
PackJason

PackJason

I make up facts.
rusra02 said:
Well, the wonders of creation convince me there is a Creator. Antony Flew, the famous atheist, changed his mind and accepted belief in a Creator, in part due to his study of DNA. He simply could not accept something so elegantly engineered could come into existence without an intelligent Maker.
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Flew converted at a very advanced age. People have speculated that he was suffering from dementia and couldn't cope with the thought of there being no afterlife.

I have no problem coping with the thought of no afterlife.
 
Demonslayer

Demonslayer

Well-Known Member
rusra02 said:
He controls that ability and may choose not to foreknow everything.
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Why would he do that, to make it more exciting for Himself? Like shutting off the headlights briefly while driving at night?

This is a new one for me, in all my discussions with religious folks I've never heard anyone say God's omniscience has an on/off switch.

rusra02 said:
I do not believe God has a plan for each person or that he decides in advance what becomes of each one of us.
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If God knows in advance what will happen to each of us, he wouldn't have to decide. Omniscience means he God knows everything...unless he's shutting off his omniscience voluntarily as you say. Still, all he has to do is peek and he would know. He could, at any time, have knowledge of anything that was going to happen to me, even if he doesn't always so it.

Let's say I develop cancer:

1. God already knows if I will die from that cancer, or if the cancer will go away on it's own. Unless as you postulate, that God has temporarily shut off his omniscience. Still, if God chose to he could turn on his omniscience and see if I would live or die. This means I'm either going to live, or die, and God can know if he wants before it happens.

2. Let's say God sees...or would see if he turned on his omniscience...that I was going to live. Now I pray, obviously, to live. God doesn't have to answer my prayer because I'm already going to live. In this case the prayer doesn't do anything because I was already going to live regardless of the prayer.

3. Now lets say God sees...or would see if he decided to peek...that I was going to die from the cancer. I'm praying to live still of course. God has already seen...or could have seen...that I would die from this cancer.

3a. If he lets me die, he didn't answer my prayer. The second case of the prayer not doing anything.

3b. Here's the real kicker. The only way the prayer works is if I was destined to die, but God tinkers with fate and now I'm going to live. Praise the LORD! BUT what this means is God's original vision...when he saw, or could have seen, that I was going to die, was wrong. I was never going to die, I was going to live because God was going to cure me, and he must have known (or could have known) that he was going to end up healing me and thus I was never in danger of dying in the first place.

There is no way around it, God is either not omniscient, or answering prayers is logically impossible.
 
A

Acim

Revelation all the time
Demonslayer said:
If God knows in advance what will happen to each of us, he wouldn't have to decide. Omniscience means he God knows everything...unless he's shutting off his omniscience voluntarily as you say. Still, all he has to do is peek and he would know. He could, at any time, have knowledge of anything that was going to happen to me, even if he doesn't always so it.

Let's say I develop cancer:

1. God already knows if I will die from that cancer, or if the cancer will go away on it's own. Unless as you postulate, that God has temporarily shut off his omniscience. Still, if God chose to he could turn on his omniscience and see if I would live or die. This means I'm either going to live, or die, and God can know if he wants before it happens.

2. Let's say God sees...or would see if he turned on his omniscience...that I was going to live. Now I pray, obviously, to live. God doesn't have to answer my prayer because I'm already going to live. In this case the prayer doesn't do anything because I was already going to live regardless of the prayer.

3. Now lets say God sees...or would see if he decided to peek...that I was going to die from the cancer. I'm praying to live still of course. God has already seen...or could have seen...that I would die from this cancer.

3a. If he lets me die, he didn't answer my prayer. The second case of the prayer not doing anything.

3b. Here's the real kicker. The only way the prayer works is if I was destined to die, but God tinkers with fate and now I'm going to live. Praise the LORD! BUT what this means is God's original vision...when he saw, or could have seen, that I was going to die, was wrong. I was never going to die, I was going to live because God was going to cure me, and he must have known (or could have known) that he was going to end up healing me and thus I was never in danger of dying in the first place.

There is no way around it, God is either not omniscient, or answering prayers is logically impossible.
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3c. The real kicker is that God knows you are going to live (within eternity) regardless of a 'prayer to stay alive.' Thus, being omniscient in this scenario wouldn't be reduced by a prayer to stay temporarily 'alive' in the corporeal.

Even before you ask (pray), God would know the desire is to stay alive. But from the divine perspective, that is never (even for a nanosecond) in doubt. So, to say it is 'obvious, one prays to stay alive' would be, for me, a not so sensible prayer to make. Everyone on earth eventually dies (in the corporeal sense). Zero exceptions to date. A prayer to stay alive might work on that level, then again it may not. But even if it worked and 50 years later, the person passed away, by logic you are using, the person could say to God (in after life), 'but, but, but, I prayed to stay alive. Why I am I here in the afterlife?' To which, I imagine, God would just laugh, and laugh, and laugh.
 
D

Desert Snake

Veteran Member
Thief said:
yeah....saw it in a documentary....
the rule was written in stone a thousand years before the Carpenter walked.

but He did say.....I have been with you always.....
I think He was inferring His Personification of the Living Law
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So, you read the Scripture like a set of riddles? lol
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
PackJason said:
Flew converted at a very advanced age. People have speculated that he was suffering from dementia and couldn't cope with the thought of there being no afterlife.

I have no problem coping with the thought of no afterlife.
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and all of this life ends in dust?
and all 7billion current participants will follow you?

not one change in billions that (at least a few) will survive the last breath?

and the presence of Man is a mystery with no purpose or resolve?
 
The Mormonator

The Mormonator

Kolob University
I work with several atheists and I don't particularly trust either of them. I think one of them steals my lunch on occasion.
 
Thief

Thief

Rogue Theologian
The Mormonator said:
I work with several atheists and I don't particularly trust either of them. I think one of them steals my lunch on occasion.
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if he does it for need ...let it be...
if he does it for spite.....allow it....

you already know....he has his reward
 
PackJason

PackJason

I make up facts.
Thief said:
and all of this life ends in dust?
and all 7billion current participants will follow you?

not one change in billions that (at least a few) will survive the last breath?

and the presence of Man is a mystery with no purpose or resolve?
Click to expand...

When I die, I will be dead. Pretty simple, really.
 
F

Frank Merton

Active Member
rusra02 said:
There are people with perfect memories who can recall events that occurred decades ago. That they have this ability does not force them to use it all the time. I believe it is similar with God's ability to foreknow the future. He controls that ability and may choose not to foreknow everything. I do not believe God has a plan for each person or that he decides in advance what becomes of each one of us. So I think God can answer prayers according to his will. Finally, despite scientific advances, mankind seems to be spiraling downward rather than advancing. The fundamental questions of life remain unanswered by science.
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If God (or anyone) has the ability, either through some sort of advance-memory or just through an infinite mind able to do the necessary calculations, to know the future, then the future is predetermined. Whether God somehow denies himself access to that knowledge is beside the point -- the knowledge and therefore the fixed future nevertheless exists.

I think we can say this is impossible. I invent the concept of "advance-memory" but don't think for a moment such a thing could be possible, and too much about the universe truly is random to make future calculation possible.

When some powerful entity, say a god, predicts the future, it can be either because it is pretty smart and can play the odds well or because it plans to see to it that what it predicts comes true. That is not omniscience, just what we do all the time ourselves when we check the weather.
 
F

Frank Merton

Active Member
rusra02 said:
Well, the wonders of creation convince me there is a Creator. Antony Flew, the famous atheist, changed his mind and accepted belief in a Creator, in part due to his study of DNA. He simply could not accept something so elegantly engineered could come into existence without an intelligent Maker.
Click to expand...
I think this is silly if true. Anyone who sees the horror of the typical animal's existence, full of disease and pain and hunger and fear and a short violent death does not in good conscience believe in God.
 
1

1AOA1

Active Member
A car will feed a man gasoline when following the golden rule. The materialistic life is corrosive to the theistic life, and vice versa.
 
rusra02

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
Frank Merton said:
I think this is silly if true. Anyone who sees the horror of the typical animal's existence, full of disease and pain and hunger and fear and a short violent death does not in good conscience believe in God.
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This is the age old question of why we suffer. Suffering came from Adam's rebellion, IMO, and continues under the influence of God's enemy Satan. Much of the suffering today is man-made, IMO. As to why God has allowed suffering for a set time, I believe the Bible answers that question as well.
 
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