Im Coming OUT! I want RF to know!

[NoahideHiker]

Wow Rev. This has to be a very hard time in your life. You have my sympathy. I don't know where you stand now theologically but I went through my own time of this. I was going to be the next elder at my conservative evangelical church and I began studying where my faith came from and how it got to where it was today.

I spent a year in study, tears and prayers crying out to G-d about where I was to be. I had to face some big things that had been hanging around like a big pink elephant in the room and it nearly destroyed my faith altogether. But I kept my eyes on Hashem and today I have such a greater understanding about G-d, religions and my place in this world.

If it doesn't insult you I'd like to keep you in my prayers.

 

[Dirty Penguin]

Dang Rev....all these people felling bad and sad for you.....even some with sympathy...

Rev.... Do what you like. I'm happy for you. You are closer and closer to breaking ALL chains of reliigion.

 

[des]

Oh boy oh boy can I relate!!! My brother is the erstwhile Christian evangelical fundie, going about converting all in Christ's name.
I have never taken the Bible literally-- ok at one time maybe I did
"literally lite" (earth created in 6 days but they weren't really days they were epochs or something plus Jonah really wasn't swallowed by a whale--
but everything that Jesus said was literally right and true.) Hey but that was ages ok.

I've been a progressive/liberal Christian. Go to the UCC church (hence my little Unitarians Considering Christ), etc.

But actually am starting to again question the whole mess. All the stuff done in the name of the church, the actual dogma itself (and if truth be known there isn't so much in the UCC anyway), even reading Sam Harris on the side (Mr.Atheist), and also the nature and reality of God, if there is one.
I'm finding it harder to say/sing various things-- though I love the people at the church I go to and really still like some of the ritual and so on (what little we have that is). I did go to the Unitarian church, probably am more of a unitarian at this point anyway, but I didn't like the place as much.

Actually I went and logged on to samharris.org which is quite an atheist board, made a few posts under a different login. Frankly, I find either that they are so young they can't be civil or that somehow their more militaristic atheistic stance (as opposed to most of the good atheist folks here) has turned them so "superior" they can't be civil. Oh well, that's another story.

Jesus, well Jesus no doubt lived a beautiful life and had many messages for humanity (along with other prophets and teachers), but that is way away from what has become of all this thru organized religion or even if there is a God(s) or no. Or how you define that god/gods.

But anyway, I thought you might like a parallel tale.
BTW, I'm not unhappy about it. (And with respect to Djamala, I'm not real likely to be anything else either).



--des

 

[RevOxley_501]

wow...what a response, thanks for the support (and the constructive criticism) everyone...i will try to reply to everyone that asked questions/commented tommorow if we arent too busy at work (i was cleaning my PC tonight so i couldnt post)...

you guys honestly validate alot of things for me, just the fact that love still exists in this sometimes overwhelmingly wretched world

 

[XAAX]

If you squint a little, you can imagine it's Don Johnson with an awful mullet . . .


. . . if that helps . . . :no:

I just cracked up over that...It really does...

 

[RevOxley_501]

I find your decision hard to accept though it seems you have given it a lot of thought and are not being rash which is even more upsetting. You have placed your decision on the shoulders of those who claim to be chistians but are too judging and legalistic and so forth, how does that make christianity wrong?

Thats not really my point Paul...you see, i havent dropped Christ the Savior at all, a quick study of Greek shows that X is the greek letter CHI, the first letter of ChiRo (Christ or XP---if you think about it---windows XP?!?!?!?!?!?!). This is where the term Xmas really comes from(dealt with in length in my livejournal in sig). so essentially i am saying i am still a Follower of Christ, i just get the opportunity to explain why i took the Christ out of the title.

However, im not about to say that "Christianity is right"...because in about 90% of the Christians, churches, denominations etc i have studied at length, there are serious errors---case in point is the belief that the Bible is Infallible and Inerrant while there are many blaringly obvious contradictions to be found. This Infallible mindset leads to the Fundamentalist mindset, which is so far from the original church it is laughable. So in a sense, Christianity IS wrong---all religions are essentially wrong. Perfect Religion must be sought out by individuals working alone and together (im not expressing a belief in works based salvation, but in works based knowledge and understanding), that has not been attempted in the "church" for almost 200 years now.

How does that invalididate Jesus' sacrifce for you?

It doesnt, Christ came to save us all...He died on the cross to do so... i never led you to believe otherwise

Why does that lead you to reject carrying the name of Christ and replacing it with an x? Are you not judging the other Christians?

X is explained in my first paragraph

Am i judging Christians? Yea i guess so, but for some odd reason, i feel like i have the authority to discipline those that i am associated with...i was just like them at one time, therefore i can dictate to a certain extent when error occurs. I am judging the fact that Christians are Judgemental---which is incredibly Ironic, but entirely neccessary---as a former member of the "church" i find it direly needed to have someone on the inside looking in from the outside---i look at the "church" through the eyes of the World---i see you, and the "church" and Christians just like all the non-believers and heathens the "church" is so desperately trying to guilt into the fold.

I too reject TV preachers, i cannot find a church i can settle in that i can reach. But i cannot think of anything that would cause me to reject Christianity, your decision bewilders me and can only lead me to the conclusion that you never knew Him, for to know Him is incomparable to anything else this world has to offer and no one would relinquish knowing Jesus Christ and proudly declaring the fact that they are a follower of Jesus Christ.

as already stated, im not denying Christ---im just denying that fake "church" that claims to be his....since they have put a trademark on the title Christian, i think i have to relenquish the title. I still am a follower of Christ---but if you look at my doctrines, you would probably say i was a hellbound sinner liberal communist!

Mk 4v16: And these are they likewise which are sown on stony ground; who, when they have heard the word, immediately receive it with gladness;
Mk 4v17: And have no root in themselves, and so endure but for a time: afterward, when affliction or persecution ariseth for the word's sake, immediately they are offended.
Mk 4v18: And these are they which are sown among thorns; such as hear the word,
Mk 4v19: And the cares of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, and the lusts of other things entering in, choke the word, and it becometh unfruitful.

and thats exactly what i am leaving, a choking, dying, ignorant church that has no future with Christ---the wheat will be separated from the tares one day...i believe that some of that is happening now! (this is not me saying all Christians are bad or evil, im dealing in gross generalizations which are almost never correct---so please dont badger me about that kthx)...I just believe one thing above all---if this is the "bride of Christ"---we are screwed---i think we can do better

 

[lilithu]

the legalism, the hatred (im in the south mind you), the hypocrisy, the preachers on TV, and the judgemental---and dont forget the ignorance. Christian carries all those labels for me now

But why now? From my perspective these things have been going on for a long time. Just curious. It don't matter to me what you call yourself.

 

[Hacker]

Rev, I think you made a good choice, I had similar feelings as you do. I was afraid of hell so I remained dedicated to Catholicism although I was very confused and eventually became disgusted with the bible, the declaration of fire and brimstone and many of the evil, corrupt verus in the old testament. It still boggles my mind, what I don't understand is why God doesn't find a way to clear up these misconceptions, that's what bothers me.

 

[lilithu]

Perfect Religion must be sought out by individuals working alone and together (im not expressing a belief in works based salvation, but in works based knowledge and understanding), that has not been attempted in the "church" for almost 200 years now.

From whence the number 200? It sounds like you're refering to a specific point in time where you feel the Church went astray.

and thats exactly what i am leaving, a choking, dying, ignorant church that has no future with Christ---the wheat will be separated from the tares one day...i believe that some of that is happening now! (this is not me saying all Christians are bad or evil, im dealing in gross generalizations which are almost never correct---so please dont badger me about that kthx)...I just believe one thing above all---if this is the "bride of Christ"---we are screwed---i think we can do better

As I said in my other post, this is nothing new. Kierkegaard was railing against the same things about a 150 years ago. Have you read "Attack Upon Christendom"?

 

[*Paul*]

Thats not really my point Paul...you see, i havent dropped Christ the Savior at all, a quick study of Greek shows that X is the greek letter CHI, the first letter of ChiRo (Christ or XP---if you think about it---windows XP?!?!?!?!?!?!). This is where the term Xmas really comes from(dealt with in length in my livejournal in sig). so essentially i am saying i am still a Follower of Christ, i just get the opportunity to explain why i took the Christ out of the title.

So essentialy all that has changed is your user title, anyone with english as their first language will look at it and read it as i did and anyone spaeking that kind of greek as their first language will be confused too as you've amalgamated the two, but is suppose they can always read your journal. Seems like a strange decision to be in tears over though, it's not like you are losing anything, you already don't attend a church so you are not withdrawing from a fellowship and you already do not believe the bible to be innerant. You are still a christian with no tradition only you spell it differently in thehope that people don't confuse you with regular christianity.

However, im not about to say that "Christianity is right"...because in about 90% of the Christians, churches, denominations etc i have studied at length, there are serious errors---case in point is the belief that the Bible is Infallible and Inerrant while there are many blaringly obvious contradictions to be found.

I'm sure you can find a nice catholic or orthodox church that will agree with you here.:liturgy:

This Infallible mindset leads to the Fundamentalist mindset, which is so far from the original church it is laughable. So in a sense, Christianity IS wrong---all religions are essentially wrong.

I'd be interested as a mateer of curiosity which "original" church members taught that scripture has errors (i'm not saying either way but i have never come accross this belief in the writings i have read of theirs and i certainly don't get that impression from the book of Acts or any NT author. In any case the catholics and orthodox will tell you that this isn't Christianity at all and that they agree with you. WHat you are disagreeing with is the protestant evangelical belief.

I still am a follower of Christ---but if you look at my doctrines, you would probably say i was a hellbound sinner liberal communist!

As i said (in this post) just a change in name. I don't know your doctrines, you don't get involved too much in debates i have been involved in.

and thats exactly what i am leaving, a choking, dying, ignorant church that has no future with Christ---the wheat will be separated from the tares one day...i believe that some of that is happening now! (this is not me saying all Christians are bad or evil, im dealing in gross generalizations which are almost never correct---so please dont badger me about that kthx)...I just believe one thing above all---if this is the "bride of Christ"---we are screwed---i think we can do better

We are promised future perfection, in this we groan, longing to be released from our sinful fleshly bodies to be refashioned like His glorious body and our sin nature swallowed up in the victory of Christ, looking for that blessed hope. Until then i will play my part:
Col 3v13: Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

 

[RevOxley_501]

From whence the number 200? It sounds like you're refering to a specific point in time where you feel the Church went astray.


As I said in my other post, this is nothing new. Kierkegaard was railing against the same things about a 150 years ago. Have you read "Attack Upon Christendom"?

wooops thats supposed to say 2000 and its an EXTREMELY rough estimate off by a few hundred years---i wasnt in the mood for math at 1 in the monin'

 

[michel]

also, lets not forget that the majority of fundamentalist Christians consider me not to be one anyway...because i do not feel the bible is innerant.

Are you sure you are doing the "Right thing" though?

Put it this way; you are deserting a religion because of the "bad reputation" it has incurred in ceratin people's eyes - and the fact that people have obviously upset you over certain principes of yours.

I would suggest that if all Christians who feel as you do were to desert the sinking ship, as you havedone, you would be doing Christianity a disfavour.

If you remained a Christian, you would still be there to "set the record straight", and maybe influence some of the followers into toning down their attitudes that you find so painful to accept.

Having said all that, I have just realised that that is why I changed from "Christian" to "A follower of Christ"...so I guess I am as guilty as you!

My defense is that I am much more than a Christian though; to label myself as one gives the wrong impression of my beliefs.

 

[RevOxley_501]

Are you sure you are doing the "Right thing" though?

Put it this way; you are deserting a religion because of the "bad reputation" it has incurred in ceratin people's eyes - and the fact that people have obviously upset you over certain principes of yours.

I deserted the religion when my beliefs stopped lining up with the majority of believers, and since the reputation of Christians precedes me at all points in life, i find it best to not be a Christian---The websters definition of Christian is just fine by me, but the way the world sees Christianity, does not line up with me and who i am--it is a disservice to non believers that arent willing to have a conversation with me because they know that that guy is a Christian Minister, he must be like all Christian ministers and is gonna tell me to turn from my wicked ways and repent. And he is gonna go around thumping on the Bible quoteing verses like he doesnt have an original thought in his head! I cant spread the Gospel (of love) as well because of that, because it quickly turns sour because of peoples past experiences with Christians has them jilted in some way.

I would suggest that if all Christians who feel as you do were to desert the sinking ship, as you havedone, you would be doing Christianity a disfavour.

If all the christians that feel the way i do abandon the ship i assume that they are simply the smart ones catching on the life rafts of logic and reason. This is the veritable plucking of the offending eye out of the Body of Christ-- I have already been shunned by the church, this is just the official way of separating myself from that mindset. I have my suspicions that im not leaving the True Body of Christ, but merely one of the 7 virgins that didnt get enough oil for her lamp!

If you remained a Christian, you would still be there to "set the record straight", and maybe influence some of the followers into toning down their attitudes that you find so painful to accept.

I think that leaving the "Church" will provide this same experience. And also give me the comfort of being separated---and i know Shism is bad, but how am i to choose between the shisms of Christianity anyway? By joining a sect i am merely adding to the sectarianism, by separating myself, i am establishing the ground by which others can unify.

Having said all that, I have just realised that that is why I changed from "Christian" to "A follower of Christ"...so I guess I am as guilty as you!

Same boat different words my brother lol.

My defense is that I am much more than a Christian though; to label myself as one gives the wrong impression of my beliefs.

Well so am i, i am the hands of Christ, I believe in a proactive religion that helps people in real tangible ways(and sometimes intangibly)....my only regret is that due to my spiritual situation of the past 3 years, i have been completely out of the ministry i was gifted with, and thusly suffer to not provide much help at all to anyone---and im not about to give up a gifted and involved ministry for the sake of inane proseletyzing (though there is nothing wrong with "leading people to Christ", I prefer to sit back and love people and let Christ do the moving).

 

[RevOxley_501]

I feel ya on this Rev. I used to be a Southern Babtist untill the day I looked around and said " Are you kidding me, what are these people thinking ? "
Thats been years ago. I still believe in god and I still strive to live the best way I can. And I'm still striving to find something that makes sense.
So as you say, your not alone. Keep putting one foot in front of the other and keep your chin up

yea i went along the same lines, first in the SBC and then in the Word of Faith Movement---

and the transition was painful both times and it is painful now

 

[jacquie4000]

Good luck on your journey Rev. To be at peace within yourself it the important thing.

 

[RevOxley_501]

I know where you are, Rev. Sorry to hear that, it can be such an emotional issue. I, too, have not attended a church (well, actually, I have gone 2x) in the last 7 or 8 years. However, since that, I have gone to seminary and been ordained. It has been a good spiritual journey for me, after the initial pain, which was great.

I wish you well, and certainly understand your concern about being lumped with a bunch of people who misuse the term Christian!

Peace.

Xtians dont rely on a building, this is the most proactive part of my new religion, Christians talk all the time about how the Church doesnt have walls etc etc, yet they still sit in between them on sundays and rarely feed the poor next door. Xtianity is a religion of Action and Love.

 

[RevOxley_501]

You know,

I refuse to let others pigeon hole WHAT I believe in. That happens a lot. So many people are so stinking biased against Christians. Changing what I call my religion to escape that bigotry just rubs me the wrong way. I'm a Christian only. What others believe or practice does not matter one whit.

i guess it boils down to definitions then, to many Christian means a very bad thing that gets to go to heaven when you dont! I will remove myself from that, because i am not a Bad person, im not Good but you know what im saying, and i do not fit the mold of Christian---saying i am a Christian is lying based on the standard definition . Look at any Christian Apologetics Research Ministry (hint) website to see that guys like me are "relativists" whom are corrupting "Gods word"

 

[RevOxley_501]

Wow Rev. This has to be a very hard time in your life. You have my sympathy. I don't know where you stand now theologically but I went through my own time of this. I was going to be the next elder at my conservative evangelical church and I began studying where my faith came from and how it got to where it was today.

Yes, this has been going on for roughly 3 years, the last 8 months or so have been the most radical doctrinal changes though. At first all that changed was semantics, but now i have dropped a couple Cardinal Doctrines---so its painful that i lost fellowship with a church that i loved, its painful to punish yourself for all the wrong you do when you are convinced of a set of beliefs after you realize your folly, and its painful to change cardinal issues. Even more painful was leaving the ministry because i had no help with it. For me though, i know God hasnt changed at all, just my perception of Him, thats a vital part of this whole thing. No matter who is right in all the religious garble, God has been the same from the beginning.

I spent a year in study, tears and prayers crying out to G-d about where I was to be. I had to face some big things that had been hanging around like a big pink elephant in the room and it nearly destroyed my faith altogether. But I kept my eyes on Hashem and today I have such a greater understanding about G-d, religions and my place in this world.

yea there have been a few pink elephant moments for me as well.

If it doesn't insult you I'd like to keep you in my prayers.

I am honored and greatful for all prayers i can get. so of course im not insulted. Thank you

 

[Hema]

I thought you were going to say that you're gay!

Hmm...

I don't think there's anything wrong with religion itself. Some bad practioners just tend to give it a bad name e.g. what Osama Bin Laden has done to Islam...he has formed a negative stereotype of Islam that isn't true. If you really want to be Christian; if in your heart you are Christian, then it is part of you. Maybe you can consider worshipping at home.

 

[michel]

I deserted the religion when my beliefs stopped lining up with the majority of believers, and since the reputation of Christians precedes me at all points in life, i find it best to not be a Christian---The websters definition of Christian is just fine by me, but the way the world sees Christianity, does not line up with me and who i am--it is a disservice to non believers that arent willing to have a conversation with me because they know that that guy is a Christian Minister, he must be like all Christian ministers and is gonna tell me to turn from my wicked ways and repent. And he is gonna go around thumping on the Bible quoteing verses like he doesnt have an original thought in his head! I cant spread the Gospel (of love) as well because of that, because it quickly turns sour because of peoples past experiences with Christians has them jilted in some way.



If all the christians that feel the way i do abandon the ship i assume that they are simply the smart ones catching on the life rafts of logic and reason. This is the veritable plucking of the offending eye out of the Body of Christ-- I have already been shunned by the church, this is just the official way of separating myself from that mindset. I have my suspicions that im not leaving the True Body of Christ, but merely one of the 7 virgins that didnt get enough oil for her lamp!



I think that leaving the "Church" will provide this same experience. And also give me the comfort of being separated---and i know Shism is bad, but how am i to choose between the shisms of Christianity anyway? By joining a sect i am merely adding to the sectarianism, by separating myself, i am establishing the ground by which others can unify.



Same boat different words my brother lol.



Well so am i, i am the hands of Christ, I believe in a proactive religion that helps people in real tangible ways(and sometimes intangibly)....my only regret is that due to my spiritual situation of the past 3 years, i have been completely out of the ministry i was gifted with, and thusly suffer to not provide much help at all to anyone---and im not about to give up a gifted and involved ministry for the sake of inane proseletyzing (though there is nothing wrong with "leading people to Christ", I prefer to sit back and love people and let Christ do the moving).

Fair enough!