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I'm Confused about Pagans

Aštra’el

Aštara, Blade of Aštoreth
People should remember that nobody here speaks for all pagans.

There are pagans who are far more like Christians or Muslims or Jews than some here would like to admit. There is no grand pagan creed against monotheism, or YHWH worship, or concepts of Hell(s) or Heaven(s), or demonic and angelic beings.



 
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Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
In that sense, deification is like applying an honorific title to something, akin to "Lord" or "Lady." A person who deifies and worships Storm like me might leave an offering of incense for a passing storm, while someone who doesn't won't bother. Paganisms are much more about what you do than what you believe. Actions speak louder than words.

OK. I spend a lot of time in the natural world and really appreciate it, but I haven't seen a reason to deify anything. I was curious about whether deifying enriches ones' experience of the natural world.
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
OK. I spend a lot of time in the natural world and really appreciate it, but I haven't seen a reason to deify anything. I was curious about whether deifying enriches ones' experience of the natural world.
From what I've seen, for some it enriches, for others it doesn't. It's a personal thing, and it depends at least in part on the following:

Consider this: do you view yourself as a subject and everything else in the world, including all the aspects of nature as objects? Or are some or all of them also subjects? You may say, "huh?" but this is a key way of thinking about the difference between the western way of seeing the world and the pagan way. The Western way, heavily influence by Abrahamic monotheism, puts God and humans, and maybe a few others (angels, demons, etc.) as subjects. Subjects are special; they are higher than objects, and they can do more things, and they don't have to give any consideration to objects at all. Anything and everything else--plants, animals, rocks, water, light, heat, wind, storms etc.--are objects. They do not get the same consideration as God, humans, etc. They are just inert, mindless automatons created by God, or the product of random natural events, but nonetheless are lesser than humans, without divine spark or evolved intelligence. Objects to be used, perhaps even admired and protected; but still, objects.

To many a pagan (it is really not possible to generalize accurately for all, because there are so many ways of being pagan), however, there are more subjects in the universe; these other subjects deserve the same sorts of consideration that Western thought only gives to humans, God, angels, etc. Different pagans and pagan groups will have different ideas about which things are subjects and deserving of consideration, respect, honor, etc.
 

Quintessence

Consults with Trees
Staff member
Premium Member
So how would you put it? What exactly is wrong with saying that gods are viewed as part of the natural world?

Remove the phrase "part of" because it implies separation. Replace it with simply "the gods are the world."


OK. I spend a lot of time in the natural world and really appreciate it, but I haven't seen a reason to deify anything. I was curious about whether deifying enriches ones' experience of the natural world.

While that's not really the point, I would say that it does because humans are pretty terrible at paying attention. When honorific titles are applied to something, we pay more attention to it, and we take it more seriously. It means you more mindfully cultivate relationships between yourself and the thing that is deified. To frame it the way @beenherebeforeagain said, the world around you stops being an object and starts being a subject, and that changes how one relates to it.
 

Unveiled Artist

Veteran Member
Remove the phrase "part of" because it implies separation. Replace it with simply "the gods are the world."



While that's not really the point, I would say that it does because humans are pretty terrible at paying attention. When honorific titles are applied to something, we pay more attention to it, and we take it more seriously. It means you more mindfully cultivate relationships between yourself and the thing that is deified. To frame it the way @beenherebeforeagain said, the world around you stops being an object and starts being a subject, and that changes how one relates to it.

Wow. I know this isnt to me, but thank you for another way to view deification. Thats beautiful.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
While that's not really the point, I would say that it does because humans are pretty terrible at paying attention. When honorific titles are applied to something, we pay more attention to it, and we take it more seriously. It means you more mindfully cultivate relationships between yourself and the thing that is deified. To frame it the way @beenherebeforeagain said, the world around you stops being an object and starts being a subject, and that changes how one relates to it.

Interesting way of looking at it. I do agree that we often don't pay attention properly to the natural world, and miss a great deal as a result.
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
So how would you put it? What exactly is wrong with saying that gods are viewed as part of the natural world?

It still implies that the natural world and the Gods are distinct in some way.

Consider this: Nature is frequently used as a proper noun, and we even use the personal pronoun "she" in English to refer to her. In this sense, our ancient reverence of Mother Earth (which does go back to the continental Ingwina tribes from whom modern English-speaking cultures are descended) never truly died.
 

Rick O'Shez

Irishman bouncing off walls
Consider this: Nature is frequently used as a proper noun, and we even use the personal pronoun "she" in English to refer to her. In this sense, our ancient reverence of Mother Earth (which does go back to the continental Ingwina tribes from whom modern English-speaking cultures are descended) never truly died.

Ships are often referred to as "she", given a character. Do you mean like that?
 

Riverwolf

Amateur Rambler / Proud Ergi
Premium Member
Ships are often referred to as "she", given a character. Do you mean like that?

Sort of. Some of it is a holdover from when English had grammatical gender, like the other Germanic languages still do.

It's also about taking an animistic view of things. It doesn't matter if inanimate objects have inherent sentience or not, when we regard them with an animistic view (that is, that they actually have personhood and are worthy of respect), we are less likely to neglect or mistreat them.

In the old days, and even a little unto today, House Wights actually were given more attention by everyday folk than the Gods (and later the Christian God) were. Things were treated with much greater care than nowadays. This was by necessity: everyday household objects weren't so easily replacable back then.

Not long ago, I started cleaning my room a bit. I uncovered some of my old toys that I hadn't seen in many, many years. It was a bit like being reunited with old friends.

That's really the thing. Belief in this case is irrelevant. Attitude and world view are what's key here. If you need a utilitarian justification for this, here: we treat our things with greater care, thus they last longer, thus we spend less money on new things (...ideally, anyway).
 

beenherebeforeagain

Rogue Animist
Premium Member
That's really the thing. Belief in this case is irrelevant. Attitude and world view are what's key here. If you need a utilitarian justification for this, here: we treat our things with greater care, thus they last longer, thus we spend less money on new things (...ideally, anyway).
There is a utilitarian aspect to much of pagan beliefs, certainly to animistic beliefs: we pay attention to Riverwolf's House Wights for instance because they are part of our day-to-day living; we do respectful caring things for the land we live on because we depend on it for the food we eat, the water we drink, the shelter we live in...although in the modern era in many Western nations, we are mightily estranged from our connections...we look to the spirits (that is, nature and its ways) that get us through each and every day; it's a very pragmatic approach to living in this world...and often, has little interest in many of the themes that occupy Western thought, especially theology, such as ultimate origins, ultimate power, eternal life, Good and Evil, and so on.
 
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