"I'm going to make him an offer he can't refuse"

[metis]

It would not surprise me if there was a conservative element within the Church in agreement with him.

There definitely is.

When John Paul II made all his public apologies for past sins of the Church wasn't there a conservative element within the Church groaning because he was admitting the Church was capable of error?

Yes, and that even extends further back. When Pope John XXIII lead the II Ecumenical Counsel that "opened the windows of the church", one of my Catholic neighbors was fit to be tied as she felt the mass should still be said in Latin.

BTW, I dated a young women who was Catholic back during my undergrad years, and I went with her to mass several times, which were in Latin, and I have to admit that it was beautiful. It was the first time I ever set foot into a Catholic church (I came from a very anti-Catholic family), and she and that church made an impression on me that's lasted 50 years. Even though it's a three hour drive from where I live, two months ago I went and visited that same church for old times sake. Lots of changes there, and in more ways than one. Still brings back lots of memories, and both the church and her changed my life profoundly (long story). Fortunately, I married another Italian Catholic woman that was just as loving and compassionate as she was, and we celebrated our 50th wedding anniversary in March.

I think public opinion has been leading all the traditional Western faiths to make moral progress. That's embarrassing for them because, if their claims of divine inspiration were true, it should be the other way around.

But public opinion actually can more likely be even more off-base than the church, such as we've seen with the election of Trump.

 

[joe1776]

BTW, I dated a young women who was Catholic back during my undergrad years, and I went with her to mass several times, which were in Latin, and I have to admit that it was beautiful.

I'm not a lover of pomp and ceremony, but for those who are, I think the Catholics did it as well as it can be done. They shouldn't have changed a thing.

I like your faith statement, BTW. Our opinions are close.

 

[Searching1981]

In the movie, The Godfather, Marlon Brando, in the title role, delivered this line a couple of times to explain how he was going to get someone to comply with his request. It's about reward and punishment.

Reward on its own is fairly effective. Punishment on its own is equally effective. But the two combined are very powerful in coercing compliance.

A few days after my seventh birthday, a Catholic priest made me an offer that most seven year olds can't refuse. If I believed as a Catholic, I'd go to Heaven (eternal reward). If I didn't, I'd go to Hell (eternal punishment).

There would be reward in this life too.

Only Catholics go to Heaven he told me. He didn't tell me this, but the idea of belonging to an elite group favored by God makes a strong appeal to the arrogant side of human nature.

The priest was wasting his time with me because I'd been born with an inclination to doubt. On hearing a claim of any consequence, my attitude is "Well, maybe that's true and maybe it isn't. I'll have to think about it." Faith, a belief without evidence, is impossible for me. It's not an option.

By making this offer so young, the priest had tried to rob me of a freewill choice as an adult and, for a while, that pissed me off. But then I realized that the same thing had been done to him when he was seven years old. So, I bear no grudge.

Bolded for clarification....so, eh, you are seven? Or did you paste this off the internet and the question you have to ask yourself is, is that person seven? And in the thirty six years I've been Catholic, no priest ever talked to me about Hell nor do we as Catholics believe only we go to Heaven.

Fake News Fail.

 

[joe1776]

Bolded for clarification....so, eh, you are seven? Or did you paste this off the internet and the question you have to ask yourself is, is that person seven? And in the thirty six years I've been Catholic, no priest ever talked to me about Hell nor do we as Catholics believe only we go to Heaven.

Fake News Fail.

There is a reasonable explanation for the difference between your experience with the church and mine. I'll give you a couple of hints and let you try to figure it out on your own:

1. The Church's claim that it has never changed is pure baloney.

2. I was seven years old in 1942

BTW, in order to keep the OP from opening up too many side issues, I did not include the fact that the priest told me that Protestants were destined for Hell. I didn't know any Protestants, but I recall feeling compassion for them. The priest's attitude seemed to be that the dummies would get what they deserved.

 

[Searching1981]

There is a reasonable explanation for the difference between your experience with the church and mine. I'll give you a couple of hints and let you try to figure it out on your own:

1. The Church's claim that it has never changed is pure baloney.

2. I was seven years old in 1942

BTW, in order to keep the OP from opening up too many side issues, I did not include the fact that the priest told me that Protestants were destined for Hell. I didn't know any Protestants, but I recall feeling compassion for them. The priest's attitude seemed to be that the dummies would get what they deserved.

What region of the world did you live? This is not a Catholic Country, we were and still are a minority. If we are less of a minority now it is because of all the immigration from South East Asia (Vietnam, Philippines...etc....) and Latin America.

 

[joe1776]

What region of the world did you live? This is not a Catholic Country, we were and still are a minority. If we are less of a minority now it is because of all the immigration from South East Asia (Vietnam, Philippines...etc....) and Latin America.

Born and raised in the USA

 

[Searching1981]

I apologize if I was abrasive. I just realized you and my Dad are close in age. I'm 36 and my Dad was born in 1946. I understand your experience is your own and I can't argue with your experience nor would I but let me share my own.

When I was Seven I thought the whole world was either Catholic, Jehova Witness or Buddhist because that is all I knew. I grew up with diverse people in a diverse community and I very much loved and admired my Buddhist friends so much that I did look into quite a bit of Buddhism by the Age of ten. The only reason I was conscious of Jehova Witnesses was because there was a cute girl I had a crush on who was Jehova Witness and she would not let me get her a Valentine Card (it's against the rule of not celebrating Holidays).

I think it was about Junior High when I went to a school in a less diverse area that I came to the Conclusion: Hispanics and Asian are Catholic and Buddhist but Whites are Protestant. However, it was not a big realization because in the nineties in Orange County California no one cared what religion you were. It wasn't up until High School, where I learned Whites very much can be Catholic and are Catholic. At that time I went to a school that was both diverse and not....what I mean by that was the majority were White but there was strong presence of Asian and Hispanic. And in the Nineties at that time, we all got along and many of us continue to be friends even now.

My Father is Latin American like myself and like I said he was born in 46 and just didn't raise us with Conservative Catholicism. I guess you can say we are Vatican 2 Catholics. What that means is that Jews are not allowed to be converted because they are fine with God. Protestants and Evangelicals are not to be converted because they are fine with God. Atheists can be converted, but so long as they lived a Good honest life they are fine with God. Buddhists, Hindus, Sikh and Muslims are fine as well for we all share one God.

That's just how I was raised as a Catholic. My dad is about, what eleven years younger than you and that is how he raised us.

 

[Searching1981]

Now, just going further being a Liberal Catholic who only knows Liberal Catholics in Southern California, the topic of Hell was never something I was concerned with at any age. In fact, the Sacred Heart Sisters raised me with the belief that Hell was really a state of mind, the absence of a Godly mind, rather than a place we would ever end up. My father raised me with the belief, "Satan can only harm you if you let him in." The suggestion is God has control over Satan and really so long as we do not play with the occult we are fine.

As for now, as a thirty six year old man, I can write I don't believe in Hell. I still do believe in the Purgatory having gone to it and being in it but that's a different story. I genuinely believe everyone goes to Heaven. But again, this is unorthodox in the Catholic Church but as a Liberal Catholic you can hold onto Unorthodox views like Thomas Merton.(A Catholic Intellectual).

 

[joe1776]

I apologize if I was abrasive. .

Apology accepted.

Your experiences were far different than mine.

My grandparents came over on a boat from Italy in about 1890. They were discriminated against for being Italian and being Catholic. I still felt discrimination growing up, but it was nothing like they endured.

The Catholic position that Heaven was like a country club reserved for Catholics only didn't help, obviously. It was arrogant, and non-Catholics resented it. I was 13 when I left the Church, but being non-Christian in a Christian world isn't the way to win people over.

This is a kinder world than the one of my youth. I'm optimistic about humanity's future.

 

[joe1776]

As for now, as a thirty six year old man, I can write I don't believe in Hell.

On the topic of Hell, I reason it this way:

If a Creator exists, it loves unconditionally because conditional love -- I will love you if you please me -- isn't love at all. It's an attempt to use someone's need for love as a tool for manipulation (the withholding of a reward).

If we are loved unconditionally, then a fair punishment as instruction for misbehavior seems reasonable, but the idea of eternal punishment in Hell is absurd. And, the idea of being punished eternally for non-belief is absurdly unjust. A God that would do that to me isn't worthy of worship.

I don't speculate on Heaven. I'll do my best in this life and let the chips fall.

 

[metis]

I'm not a lover of pomp and ceremony, but for those who are, I think the Catholics did it as well as it can be done. They shouldn't have changed a thing.

Actually it really wasn't pomp & ceremony as much as it was beautiful simplicity with opportunities to meditate on what's being said and done. IOW, it wasn't all talk-talk-talk that was characteristic of the local Lutheran church I grew up in.

I like your faith statement, BTW. Our opinions are close.

Oh, then you might want to change your theology!

 

[metis]

And in the thirty six years I've been Catholic, no priest ever talked to me about Hell nor do we as Catholics believe only we go to Heaven.

Same with me with my 50+ years going to mass with my wife.

 

[metis]

The Catholic position that Heaven was like a country club reserved for Catholics only didn't help, obviously.

That actually was not Catholic teaching but I know that some clergy did teach that. The closest official teaching along that line is that if someone knew the teachings of the church and rejected it, their salvation could be in jeopardy. This appears to go all the way back to Origen's statement near the end of the 2nd century whereas he questioned whether salvation would be possible outside the "scarlet thread that binds" (i.e. the church), and added who would be foolish enough to try.

 

[joe1776]

That actually was not Catholic teaching but I know that some clergy did teach that. The closest official teaching along that line is that if someone knew the teachings of the church and rejected it, their salvation could be in jeopardy. This appears to go all the way back to Origen's statement near the end of the 2nd century whereas he questioned whether salvation would be possible outside the "scarlet thread that binds" (i.e. the church), and added who would be foolish enough to try.

You are describing the Church's position after Vatican II. The quote you pulled was part of my experience growing up -- before Vatican II.Here's a quote from Thomas Ryan, director of the Loyola Institute for Ministry on the Catholic attitude before Vatican II: “Catholics looked down on other religions and thought of them as condemned to hell,” Vatican II Changed The Catholic Church -- And The World | HuffPost

 

[metis]

You are describing the Church's position after Vatican II. The quote you pulled was part of my experience growing up -- before Vatican II.Here's a quote from Thomas Ryan, director of the Loyola Institute for Ministry on the Catholic attitude before Vatican II: “Catholics looked down on other religions and thought of them as condemned to hell,” Vatican II Changed The Catholic Church -- And The World | HuffPost

But what the article says is actually different in that Vatican II opened the door to ecumenism and recognition of the validity of non-Catholic Christian faiths, which the church had previously avoided, but that does not translate out to any official pre-Vatican II decree that no one could reach salvation outside the CC. Therefore, one of "revolutionary approaches" of VII was the recognition of other Christian and even Jewish groups as being "authentic", if I can use that word, plus a much greater willingness to dialogue and even work together in some areas of commonality.

 

[joe1776]

But what the article says is actually different in that Vatican II opened the door to ecumenism and recognition of the validity of non-Catholic Christian faiths, which the church had previously avoided, but that does not translate out to any official pre-Vatican II decree that no one could reach salvation outside the CC. Therefore, one of "revolutionary approaches" of VII was the recognition of other Christian and even Jewish groups as being "authentic", if I can use that word, plus a much greater willingness to dialogue and even work together in some areas of commonality.

In Post 53, you wrote: That actually was not Catholic teaching but I know that some clergy did teach that.

That made it sound like my comments were probably based on an experience that deviated from the norm. By quoting the director of a Catholic, Jesuit university corroborating my view, I show that's likely not the case.

What the Church's actual official position was before Vatican II is irrelevant here. My comments were about what lay Catholics were taught and what they, and non-Catholics, understood the position to be before 1960.

 

[metis]

What the Church's actual official position was before Vatican II is irrelevant here. My comments were about what lay Catholics were taught and what they, and non-Catholics, understood the position to be before 1960.

Yes, I understand, and this isn't the only area whereas a priest or nun sort of went "renegade", such as the many episodes of "Priests & Nuns Gone Wild!". For another example, many Catholics were taught about "limbo", which never was an official teaching of the CC.

 

[joe1776]

Yes, I understand, and this isn't the only area whereas a priest or nun sort of went "renegade", such as the many episodes of "Priests & Nuns Gone Wild!". For another example, many Catholics were taught about "limbo", which never was an official teaching of the CC.

Metis, my curiosity piqued, I searched for "catholic traditionalist" and found a wish-list of traditionalists who would like to roll back the church to pre-Vatican II positions. One of them read:

A new ecumenism [of Vatican II I assume] which they see as aiming at a false pan-Christian religious unity which does not require non-Catholics to convert to the Catholic faith. They see this as contradicting the teachings of the Bible, Pope Pius XI's Mortalium animos, Pope Pius XII's Humani generis and other documents.

Doesn't this imply that the Church's official position pre-Vatican II was that non-Catholics would go the Hell?

Traditionalist Catholic - Wikipedia

 

[metis]

Doesn't this imply that the Church's official position pre-Vatican II was that non-Catholics would go the Hell?

I did mention this before in that the teaching has long been, at least up until PF, that if one hears and understands the the arguments for the "primacy" of the CC, and yet they reject joining in full communion, then indeed their salvation could be in jeopardy. This can also be found in the Catholic Catechism, btw.

Therefore, according to that position, I could not be "saved"-- not that I believe in it anyway.

 

[Jeremiahcp]

OK, I agree we shouldn't blindly accept any belief system. The important question then becomes, where DO we go from there?

Wherever you want, Koala Bear, wherever you want.