I'm not baptized. Am i a Christian?

[savagewind]

What more is there??

Psalms 83:18

 

[sojourner]

OK. Please explain Matthew 5:46 for us.

It's hyperbole. Loving those who love you is implied as a superficial kind of love, that is, love that is not particularly self-sacrificing. I don't expect you to understand that, because you said earlier that love isn't self-sacrificial. But to love one's enemies is a self-sacrifice.

 

[savagewind]

It's hyperbole. Loving those who love you is implied as a superficial kind of love, that is, love that is not particularly self-sacrificing. I don't expect you to understand that, because you said earlier that love isn't self-sacrificial. But to love one's enemies is a self-sacrifice.

So tell us, please. When you love do you expect anything back? What about sacrifice? Do you expect anything back? If a sacrifice is done expecting something back it would be called COST. Wouldn't it? Why isn't it called cost?

 

[savagewind]

I believe love expects love. I believe a sacrifice expects nothing back.

 

[savagewind]

Why is the man divorced? Did you expect something back?

 

[sojourner]

This may not be saying what you want it to say. It seems to me the word "belongs" was added. I am certian that God's will is for God's people to manage Earth. That is what I think Psalm 24:1 means.

"The earth is the Lord’s and all that is in it,
the world, and those who live in it;"
There is no "belongs."

"Management" isn't "ownership."

What will be left of the people hating God and God's people? 1 Corinthians 3:14,15

Luke 15:4, of course. God will look for the lost ones -- not "until suppertime," or "until it gets dark," or "until God gets tired," or even "until we die," or "until the world comes to an end." God will look for the lost ones until they are found.

Many saved is called powerless by you? Why?

We are one humanity and, therefore, one family of God. Salvation is for humanity, not for individuals. Take a look at the list of references I provided earlier:
Gen. 12:3, Ex. 33:19, Job 42:2, Psalm 22:27, Psalm 65:1-2, Psalm 139:7-8, Psalm 145:8-10, Is. 25:6-8, Is. 45:22-24, Is. 49:6, Jer. 31:33-34, Hos. 11:9, Joel 2:28, Zeph. 3:9, Zech. 2:11, Matt. 5:44, Matt. 8:11, Matt. 12:50, Matt. 18:14, Mark 11:17, Lk. 3:6, Lk. 15:4, Lk. 15:8, Lk. 19:10, Jn. 1:9, Jn. 3:17, Jn. 4:23, Jn. 10:16, Jn. 12:32, Jn. 12:47, Jn. 15:16, Acts 3:21, Acts 10:34, Rom. 3:23, Rom. 5:18, Rom. 8:38-39, Rom. 11:32, 1 Cor. 13:4-8, 1 Cor. 15:22, Eph. 1:9-10, Phil. 2:10-11 Col. 1:19-20, 1 Tim. 1:16, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, Titus 2:11, 2 Pet. 2:9, Rev. 5:13, Rev. 21:25. Salvation is meant for all of us.

Why not tell us why it is written that we should seek God and righteousness?

When we seek love, we seek God, for God is love. When we seek righteousness, we seek the same. For love is righteousness.

 

[sojourner]

Psalms 83:18

God is love. When we know love, we know God.

 

[sojourner]

I believe love expects love.

Love doesn't insist on its own way.

I believe a sacrifice expects nothing back.

Love expects nothing in return, for love is unconditional.

 

[sojourner]

Why is the man divorced? Did you expect something back?

I have no idea what you're talking about. Divorce? Where did "divorce" come into the picture? Divorce is a legal term and a legal position.

 

[savagewind]

"The earth is the Lord’s and all that is in it,
the world, and those who live in it;"
There is no "belongs."

http://biblehub.com/text/psalms/24-1.htm There is no "is" either.

"Management" isn't "ownership."

So, when God gives something he doesn't?

Luke 15:4, of course. God will look for the lost ones -- not "until suppertime," or "until it gets dark," or "until God gets tired," or even "until we die," or "until the world comes to an end." God will look for the lost ones until they are found.

OK. Good enough. But I think it is about finding God not God finding us.

We are one humanity and, therefore, one family of God. Salvation is for humanity, not for individuals. Take a look at the list of references I provided earlier:

It owuld be good of you and "food at the proper time" I think to spell them out so we do not have to.

Gen. 12:3, Ex. 33:19, Job 42:2, Psalm 22:27, Psalm 65:1-2, Psalm 139:7-8, Psalm 145:8-10, Is. 25:6-8, Is. 45:22-24, Is. 49:6, Jer. 31:33-34, Hos. 11:9, Joel 2:28, Zeph. 3:9, Zech. 2:11, Matt. 5:44, Matt. 8:11, Matt. 12:50, Matt. 18:14, Mark 11:17, Lk. 3:6, Lk. 15:4, Lk. 15:8, Lk. 19:10, Jn. 1:9, Jn. 3:17, Jn. 4:23, Jn. 10:16, Jn. 12:32, Jn. 12:47, Jn. 15:16, Acts 3:21, Acts 10:34, Rom. 3:23, Rom. 5:18, Rom. 8:38-39, Rom. 11:32, 1 Cor. 13:4-8, 1 Cor. 15:22, Eph. 1:9-10, Phil. 2:10-11 Col. 1:19-20, 1 Tim. 1:16, 1 Tim. 2:3-4, 1 Tim. 4:9-10, Titus 2:11, 2 Pet. 2:9, Rev. 5:13, Rev. 21:25.

I am already procrastinating enough. I am not going to look them up tioday but I apreciate YOUR effort. Thank you.

Salvation is meant for all of us.

That is very sweet but what about all those who do not want to be saved? Wouldn't it be hell for them?

When we seek love, we seek God, for God is love. When we seek righteousness, we seek the same. For love is righteousness.

OK! I agree. We agree. Hip hip hurray! I should go do something else. Thank you for talking to me.

 

[sojourner]

So tell us, please. When you love do you expect anything back?

No. Love is its own reward.

What about sacrifice? Do you expect anything back?

No. If I expected anything back, it wouldn't really be a sacrifice. It would be a contract.

If a sacrifice is done expecting something back it would be called COST. Wouldn't it? Why isn't it called cost?

Sacrifice is, itself, a cost. But the only expectation attached to that cost is the expectation that love will be served. Love is costly. The example of Jesus' love for us was costly for him, and we are asked to love in the same way, spending our egos expecting nothing in return.

 

[savagewind]

Love doesn't insist on its own way.

Agreed.

Love expects nothing in return, for love is unconditional.

Ya but, we were talking about married love. Weren't we?

 

[sojourner]

There is no "is" either.

Really? You don't get the whole translation problem? yet you're throwing out some googled Hebrew translation site, as if you do know. What is the contextual meaning of hebrew words strung together meaninglessly in our English context? Could it be that ownership is implied here?

So, when God gives something he doesn't?

Doesn't ... what? "Manage" it?

OK. Good enough. But I think it is about finding God not God finding us.

Not according to Luke 15. Way back in Genesis 2, when humanity got itself in trouble, what happened? God came looking for Adam.

I am already procrastinating enough. I am not going to look them up tioday but I apreciate YOUR effort. Thank you.

You're quite welcome. Feel free to look them up at your leisure.

That is very sweet but what about all those who do not want to be saved? Wouldn't it be hell for them?

How do we not know that, at some point, they will come to the realization (perhaps when faced with the truth of their position when they stand before God in their nakedness) that they are lost, and do need to be saved? If the bible says "God seeks them until they are found," I tend to go with that over some baseless supposition that any one human being can hold out in her/his own ignorance forever.

OK! I agree. We agree. Hip hip hurray! I should go do something else. Thank you for talking to me.

Any time. I find your faith compelling and deeply felt.

 

[sojourner]

Ya but, we were talking about married love. Weren't we?

We were? At any rate, are we talking about the relaationship or the contractual obligations? They are different. Love isn't a contractual obligation.

 

[Glaurung]

Really? So, then, salvation is a product of what we do (being baptized). Got it.

It is God not us that bestows the grace of baptism. God of course is not constrained to a particular ritual, so in certain circumstances the graces of baptism can be obtained without the ritual. This is what I mean implicit baptism. Someone who did not have the possibility of a formal baptism available but nonetheless dies in perfect faith.

One way or the other baptism is considered so essential for salvation that it's the only sacrament which can be administered by anyone. (Although outside emergencies a priest ought to do it). I know it may not mean much to you, but the necessity of baptism has been taken as granted by the Church since the Fathers.

 

[sojourner]

It is God not us that bestows the grace of baptism. God of course is not constrained to a particular ritual, so in certain circumstances the graces of baptism can be obtained without the ritual. This is what I mean implicit baptism. Someone who did not have the possibility of a formal baptism available but nonetheless dies in perfect faith.

One way or the other baptism is considered so essential for salvation that it's the only sacrament which can be administered by anyone. (Although outside emergencies a priest ought to do it). I know it may not mean much to you, but the necessity of baptism has been taken as granted by the Church since the Fathers.

I don't know what you mean by "it may not mean much to me," being that I'm ordained clergy. While baptism may be desirable, it isn't essential. While it is God who bestows grace, participation in the sacrament is not forced upon us, but is the result of our impulse to act. Therefore making salvation completely dependent upon baptism means, for all practical purposes, that salvation is then completely dependent upon our will to participate in it. Therefore, it is a direct result of what we do (since God does not act until we act).

 

[Glaurung]

I don't know what you mean by "it may not mean much to me," being that I'm ordained clergy.

May I ask under what tradition? I by no means wish to denigrate you but Protestant ordinations do not carry much weight to a Catholic. By denying the salvific value of baptism you are at clear odds with the clear teaching of historic Christianity and the Church Fathers. "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is part of the creed.

You're not going to get me to abandon baptismal regeneration, it's doctrine.

 

[sojourner]

May I ask under what tradition? I by no means wish to denigrate you but Protestant ordinations do not carry much weight to a Catholic. By denying the salvific value of baptism you are at clear odds with the clear teaching of historic Christianity and the Church Fathers. "We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins" is part of the creed.

You're not going to get me to abandon baptismal regeneration, it's doctrine.

Of course it is, but it's not essential.

 

[savagewind]

Of course it is, but it's not essential.

I think I am beginning to understand you. It is good.

 

[sojourner]

I think I am beginning to understand you. It is good.

Breaking down barriers of understanding can be difficult for all of us. My whole ethic when it comes to religion is that "everybody gets to play." We are all one human family, deeply loved by God, and all of us -- no matter our sin, or our belief, or our lack of belief, are OK with God in the grand scheme of things. For me, Xy is a call to the unity of the whole human family -- not a "right belief" or a"doing things a certain way." So, whenever I perceive division, I tend to get a little defensive about that posture of inclusion. It has taken me a long time of hard work of soul-searching to come to terms with the fact that Jesus calls us -- not to an exclusive religion, but to wholeness as a human family.