I'm split between these roads.

[jonman122]

Basically what your trying to assert is "read my bible and then you'll see the real truth, thinking is overrated"

I don't see how bringing personal values in to the mix changes anything? where did you even copy-paste that from? (it was a religious website, oh how wonderous.)

and who wants to read all that giberish when you can have it explained better to you in the video i posted anyways :\

i'm not here to fight, so stop attacking whatever i put up.

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

In fact, IOV the Christian God and the Islamic Allah are one and the same God (there being only one)!

A mere matter of different languages, and hence different terms for the same thing.

As to your question about those who never knew (or knew of) God, the Baha'i scriptures assure us that God, in His infinite Love and Mercy, assists EVERYONE in the Next Life to draw near to Him (the definition of Heaven), even those who may have started out in a state or condition far removed from Him (the definition of hell).

Best!

Bruce

 

[idea]

I'm not here to convert anyone, I'm not asking him to pray, i'm not asking him to read all of the church doctrine for every different theology, I'm just asking that Jordan thinks for himself, and comes to whatever conclusion he wants to about god and what he wants to believe or not believe. It's entirely his choice.

because thats what i believe in, thought. Critical, logical thought.

How exactly can you make a choice on something you know nothing about? on something you do not read about, talk to others about...

Would you rather eat a Canariumor nut or a jaboticaba? I mean you can look at pictures and describe the different fruits all you want – but until you actually put them in your mouth and chew, you can’t really make a choice on which one you prefer…

You have to read, study, learn, try out - or you cannot make an informed choice...

do it all on your own?
"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulder of giants" - Newton.

All on your own, with no books (books were written by other people) no instruction of any kind - you would be a caveman/cavewoman - you could spend your entire life unable to start a fire... Those who learn from others make a lot more progress than those who try and go it on their own...

Read - try it out, pray, see what happens, use the knowledge of others...
but your testimony will be your own, no borrowed light!

 

[idea]

Basically what your trying to assert is "read my bible and then you'll see the real truth, thinking is overrated"

I don't see how bringing personal values in to the mix changes anything? where did you even copy-paste that from? (it was a religious website, oh how wonderous.)

and who wants to read all that giberish when you can have it explained better to you in the video i posted anyways :\

i'm not here to fight, so stop attacking whatever i put up.

basically what you are saying is "don't read it, don't learn about it, don't pray about it, avoid it, don't listen to anyone else, stay in your own close minded little world"

I encourage thinking, reading, studying, learning, exploring all options - not avoiding anything!

giberish? that is the chart used by higher learning institutions to evaluate the critical thinking skills of their students. Why are you so against reading/learning?

 

[jonman122]

How exactly can you make a choice on something you know nothing about? on something you do not read about, talk to others about...

Would you rather eat a Canariumor nut or a jaboticaba? I mean you can look at pictures and describe the different fruits all you want – but until you actually put them in your mouth and chew, you can’t really make a choice on which one you prefer…

You have to read, study, learn, try out - or you cannot make an informed choice...

do it all on your own?
"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulder of giants" - Newton.

All on your own, with no books (books were written by other people) no instruction of any kind - you would be a caveman/cavewoman - you could spend your entire life unable to start a fire... Those who learn from others make a lot more progress than those who try and go it on their own...

Read - try it out, pray, see what happens, use the knowledge of others...
but your testimony will be your own, no borrowed light!

And without critical thinking, or without science, you wouldn't be on the computer you have right nowm you wouldn't have the medicine you take, you wouldnt drive the car you drive, all these things that we take for granted nowadays didn't come about by "prayer" they came about by science and actually using our own brains, not reading books and basing our entire lives off of eronious beliefs in gods that have no evidence for existance whatsoever.

without science and critical thinking, we would ALL still be cavemen in comparison to what we are now. And apparently, you would prefer this?

 

[jonman122]

basically what you are saying is "don't read it, don't learn about it, don't pray about it, avoid it, don't listen to anyone else, stay in your own close minded little world"

I encourage thinking, reading, studying, learning, exploring all options - not avoiding anything!

giberish? that is the chart used by higher learning institutions to evaluate the critical thinking skills of their students. Why are you so against reading/learning?

You are only encouraging thought and learning on your belief, not all beliefs or all books ever written.

what i'm attempting to promote is the idea that thinking for yourself, and coming to your own conclusions after thinking about something rationally is a more honest way of looking in to a subject.

 

[idea]

And without critical thinking, or without science, you wouldn't be on the computer you have right nowm you wouldn't have the medicine you take, you wouldnt drive the car you drive, all these things that we take for granted nowadays didn't come about by "prayer" they came about by science and actually using our own brains, not reading books and basing our entire lives off of eronious beliefs in gods that have no evidence for existance whatsoever.

without science and critical thinking, we would ALL still be cavemen in comparison to what we are now. And apparently, you would prefer this?

I love science - I have a PhD in Engineering
science is not the end all be all though.

check out the Perry model - level 4 recognizes that science does not have all the answers actually, levels 2,3, and 4 recognize the reality of uncertainty.
The Perry Model of Intellectual and Ethical Development

 

[jonman122]

I love science - I have a PhD in Engineering
science is not the end all be all though.

check out the Perry model - level 4 recognizes that science does not have all the answers

what practical application has religion given to the world? has religion created a medicine that is proven to work? has it created cars or space-flight?

no one claimed science has ALL the answers, but it is the only thing that actually tries to even FIND the answers in a way that everyone can agree on, and each theory that comes up is tested rigorously by hundreds of different scientists to find out if it is true or not. Why isn't religion to be subject to such rigorous tests?

 

[idea]

You are only encouraging thought and learning on your belief, not all beliefs or all books ever written.

what i'm attempting to promote is the idea that thinking for yourself, and coming to your own conclusions after thinking about something rationally is a more honest way of looking in to a subject.

Look what I have posted links too - I have not restricted myself. I have never encouraged anyone NOT to read something. You however, have.

I'm not asking him to pray, i'm not asking him to read all of the church doctrine for every different theology..

in other words - don't read about it, don't pray, avoid all religious literature - that is what you are encouraging.

I think he should go and read about everything he can get his hands on.

 

[idea]

what practical application has religion given to the world? has religion created a medicine that is proven to work? has it created cars or space-flight?

no one claimed science has ALL the answers, but it is the only thing that actually tries to even FIND the answers in a way that everyone can agree on, and each theory that comes up is tested rigorously by hundreds of different scientists to find out if it is true or not. Why isn't religion to be subject to such rigorous tests?

religion gives life meaning and purpose - cars/spaceships do not.

have to run - read yall later!

 

[jonman122]

Look what I have posted links too - I have not restricted myself. I have never encouraged anyone NOT to read something. You however, have.


in other words - don't read about it, don't pray, avoid all religious literature - that is what you are encouraging.

i'm saying theres about 8000 different books on theologies, if he wants to read them all thats fine but thats not what hes asking about here, and accusing me of things that i've never done isn't helping your position.

I'm not going to argue over something so trivial and pointless, i really have no idea what your attempting to do but it really is irritating. At any rate, attempting to discredit me doesn't in any way show how your religion is the best religion out of the other 7999, and i guess we'll see how you sum up against the real big players in town like catholocism. I have no personal need for a deity to have my life make sense, so arguing with you is not my place.

All i can say again is think for yourself Jordan.

 

[Hiawoofa]

I've read everything you all have posted (sheesh.... took a while...) and I've still come to no definite conclusion for myself. I do believe in open thinking, and I understand religion and faith can narrow that by a vast amount. But it does bring people together. Yet, it tears friends apart as well. And a lack of religion in this society can cost you a job and even the same opportunities as religious people have. It's unfair. Both ways you lose out. With religion, you lose out on some open thought if you want to be a "true follower" in the eyes of others, but with no religion, you're judged and it can cost you a lot that you've worked for. =/

 

[Peace]

Hello, My name is Jordan. I was once a faithful christian who loved the idea of God, of Heaven, and feared the thought of a Hell. But, then I thought, and thought, and thought. And I came to the conclusion that it was all just an IDEA. Now, I'm not here to argue about the existence of God, and Heaven, and Hell. I respect everybody's opinion, and I understand that we all have our own. I'm just lost.

As a young child, I was never forced to be a Christian, it wasn't shoved down my throat as I see it being done regularly to others. But I believed. If somebody asked if I believed, my automatic response was yes. It wasn't even a thought, just a... reflex if you will. But as I grew older, I started to realize the reason I would answer yes and continue to force myself to believe I was faithful was because honestly, I was scared. I was scared of reprimand. I was scared of where I'd end up if I didn't believe. Are most Christians this way, but just too afraid to admit it? I honestly don't know. I don't want the fear of the unknown to control my decisions.

I will admit, Christianity brings good morals to us. But to me, that's all it is. All religion is. Morals. It teaches us how to be a better person. But we obviously don't get it. Wars to prove our religion is right, and yours is wrong? Those don't seem like good morals to me. Not the kind we are taught anyway. Like I've read on another thread, if I like grapefruit, and you don't, am I going to force you to eat it and kill you if you don't? That's not right. =/ But that's what's happening. Why would God allow this to happen? Why? God's flooded the world before. Does he not have the power to stop these horrible acts? I just don't understand.

And all of those people in Asia and Africa who would laugh at the idea of our God or maybe haven't even heard of it, what will happen to them? With they be condemned to Hell? Will I? What will happen to the people who have never even been introduced to Christianity or any religion? What will happen to the Muslims who pray to Allah? What makes our God more real than theirs? I don't get this either.

If you can provide an answer to any of this, I would be grateful. Like I said, I want to believe, it just doesn't make sense to me. None of this. =/

Hello Jordan and welcome to RF
I would say the only way out is to resort to God. Pray to Him and ask Him to help you to find the peace of mind you are looking for and to guide your way to His eternal light. Believe me if you resort to Him with sincerity He will open His doors wide for you, for He is so Merciful and so compassionate and very close to us, more closer than our jugular vein.
By the way we pray to Allah who is the same God of Christians and Jews. There is no god but God (Allah) who is the creator of the heavens and the earth and what's therein.

May our dear God be your companion in your journey!
Peace

 

[Peace]

Why would God allow this to happen? Why? God's flooded the world before. Does he not have the power to stop these horrible acts? I just don't understand

He does have the power to stop all the mess that has been going on, but we shouldn't forget that we are here in this life for a test. We are not perfect and we are here to be tested. God had sent throughout history Prophets to the people in order to inform them about the existence of God and that they are here on this earth for an objective; that of worshipping God, obeying Him and doing good. we are here on this earth for a test. God created both good and evil inside everyone of us and has given us the freedom to choose between the two, and it's up to us which way to choose.

 

[McBell]

i don't even care. Critical Thinking woo

Seems to me that this is actually a contradiction.

 

[McBell]

i'm not here to fight, so stop attacking whatever i put up.

Your kidding right?
Or perhaps it slipped your mind that this thread is in a debate sub-forum?

 

[McBell]

I've read everything you all have posted (sheesh.... took a while...) and I've still come to no definite conclusion for myself. I do believe in open thinking, and I understand religion and faith can narrow that by a vast amount. But it does bring people together. Yet, it tears friends apart as well. And a lack of religion in this society can cost you a job and even the same opportunities as religious people have. It's unfair. Both ways you lose out. With religion, you lose out on some open thought if you want to be a "true follower" in the eyes of others, but with no religion, you're judged and it can cost you a lot that you've worked for. =/

You are damned if you do.
You are damned if you don't.
Seems to me that the best thing to do is to examine the pros and cons of the three major positions (theist, atheist, agnostic) and go from there.

 

[jonman122]

Your kidding right?
Or perhaps it slipped your mind that this thread is in a debate sub-forum?

for 1 - what does me caring have to do with critical thinking, or making a statement regarding it? absoluely nothing. Just because for one moment i was too tired to bother, Jordan shouldn't abandon all reason and logic just because i myself stopped critically thinking for a moment

2 - I know this is a debate forum and thats why regardless of the fact i told him to stop i did in fact continue to debate him on the topic, your offhand comments as well have no merit and what are you using them for? What is your logic?
:slap:

The only people that religion brings together are religious people, and the people it tears apart are family and friends like you said. I live in Canada, here if you are a political figure and you claim to be a YEC (Young Earth Creationist) you lose nearly all the support you had, the YEC community is so small here in Canada it's amazing and i'm quite glad they have no chance of trying to shovel this drivel down our science board, what practical application does believing the earth was created 6000 years ago have? what applications does evolution have? (If you look it up, Evolution has some very practical applications like it's use in creating Antibiotics. Creationism has absolutely no applications whatsoever.)

Theres no reason to say that any 1 solution is the right one, especially in a situation where your belief in god has an actual financial impact. I wouldn't suggest prayer as the answer, maybe a more practical approach like moving to an area in your country where what you believe is not shunned, and thinking openly is something people embrace or belieiving in god in some abstract way so as to be able to continue to have a job and be theistic enough that you can live within your community, because i'd say regardless of what you believe surviving is somewhat of a necessity.. but if you do find it hard to believe that praying to a god who would kill millions of complete innocents will solve your problems, maybe just leave out the bit of information that your on the edge of being theistic and not, and avoid the subject of god. I've never had to speak of god at my workplace, but again i'm not sure how it is there because i've never lived in a situation where belieiving whatever you want to is shunned as "closed minded"

 

[Kilgore Trout]

How exactly can you make a choice on something you know nothing about? on something you do not read about, talk to others about...

Would you rather eat a Canariumor nut or a jaboticaba? I mean you can look at pictures and describe the different fruits all you want – but until you actually put them in your mouth and chew, you can’t really make a choice on which one you prefer…

You have to read, study, learn, try out - or you cannot make an informed choice...

do it all on your own?
"If I have seen farther than others, it is because I was standing on the shoulder of giants" - Newton.

All on your own, with no books (books were written by other people) no instruction of any kind - you would be a caveman/cavewoman - you could spend your entire life unable to start a fire... Those who learn from others make a lot more progress than those who try and go it on their own...

Read - try it out, pray, see what happens, use the knowledge of others...
but your testimony will be your own, no borrowed light!

There may be numerous types of animal feces, however I don't need read, study, learn, or talk about them to know that I don't want to eat any of them. Because the one trait they all have in common, is that they're feces.

 

[McBell]

for 1 - what does me caring have to do with critical thinking, or making a statement regarding it? absoluely nothing. Just because for one moment i was too tired to bother, Jordan shouldn't abandon all reason and logic just because i myself stopped critically thinking for a moment

Actually, if you do not care then you are not critically thinking.
But then, perhaps that is just me.

2 - I know this is a debate forum and thats why regardless of the fact i told him to stop i did in fact continue to debate him on the topic, your offhand comments as well have no merit and what are you using them for? What is your logic?
:slap:

My offhand comments have no merit yet you write a book in response to them?
You seem to be consistently inconsistent.

The only people that religion brings together are religious people

Opinion.
In fact, there seems to be many atheist groups that if not for religion would not have been formed.
Care to try again?

and the people it tears apart are family and friends like you said.

And?
Or is your position that atheism does not cause such divisions?

I wouldn't suggest prayer as the answer,

Of course you wouldn't.
But that does not mean that someone else wouldn't.
Nor does it mean that no one finds prayer to be useful.