Imagine.....................

[michel]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/8/newsid_2536000/2536321.stm

Imagine, twenty five year ago today, an incredible talent died...............His legacy, well, mostly, a song about idealism, one of which we have fallen far short of............

1980: John Lennon shot dead
Former Beatle John Lennon has been shot dead by an unknown gunman who opened fire outside the musician's New York apartment.



The 40-year-old was shot several times as he entered the Dakota, his luxury apartment building on Manhattan's Upper West Side, opposite Central Park, at 2300 local time.

He was rushed in a police car to St Luke's Roosevelt Hospital Center, where he died.

His wife, Yoko Ono, who is understood to have witnessed the attack, was with him.

Shots heard

A police spokesman said a suspect was in custody, but he had no other details of the shooting.

"This was no robbery," the spokesman said, adding that Mr Lennon was probably shot by a "deranged" person.

Witness reports say at least three shots were fired and others have claimed they heard six.

There are also reports Mr Lennon staggered up six steps into the vestibule after he was shot, before collapsing.

Jack Douglas, Lennon's producer, said he and the Lennons had been at a studio called the Record Plant in mid-town earlier in the evening and Lennon left at 2230.

Mr Lennon said he planned to have some dinner and then return home, Mr Douglas said.

Fans at scene

The Lennons are said to have left their limousine on the street and walked up the driveway when the gunman opened fire.

It is unclear whether the man had been lying in wait in the entrance to the building for Mr Lennon, or whether he came up behind him.

Witnesses describe the gunman as a "pudgy kind of man", 35 to 40 years old with brown hair.

Other former band members, Paul McCartney, guitarist George Harrison and drummer Ringo Starr are thought to have been informed of Lennon's murder.

Fans have already begun arriving at the scene, many still unaware Lennon has died. Mr Lennon is survived by his wife, their son Sean, and his son from a previous marriage, Julian.
For all of you who live through those years, and the younger ones too; I hope ypu will forgive me for once more posting the words to one of Retrorich's favourite songs (and whoever I have forgotten).............

​

​

Imagine​

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...
​

Imagine there's no countries,
It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...
​

Imagine no possesions,
I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...
​

You may say Im a dreamer,
but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.:162:

​

​

​

 

[Bishka]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/december/8/newsid_2536000/2536321.stm

Imagine, twenty five year ago today, an incredible talent died...............His legacy, well, mostly, a song about idealism, one of which we have fallen far short of............

1980: John Lennon shot dead
Former Beatle John Lennon has been shot dead by an unknown gunman who opened fire outside the musician's New York apartment.



The 40-year-old was shot several times as he entered the Dakota, his luxury apartment building on Manhattan's Upper West Side, opposite Central Park, at 2300 local time.

He was rushed in a police car to St Luke's Roosevelt Hospital Center, where he died.

His wife, Yoko Ono, who is understood to have witnessed the attack, was with him.

Shots heard

A police spokesman said a suspect was in custody, but he had no other details of the shooting.

"This was no robbery," the spokesman said, adding that Mr Lennon was probably shot by a "deranged" person.

Witness reports say at least three shots were fired and others have claimed they heard six.

There are also reports Mr Lennon staggered up six steps into the vestibule after he was shot, before collapsing.

Jack Douglas, Lennon's producer, said he and the Lennons had been at a studio called the Record Plant in mid-town earlier in the evening and Lennon left at 2230.

Mr Lennon said he planned to have some dinner and then return home, Mr Douglas said.

Fans at scene

The Lennons are said to have left their limousine on the street and walked up the driveway when the gunman opened fire.

It is unclear whether the man had been lying in wait in the entrance to the building for Mr Lennon, or whether he came up behind him.

Witnesses describe the gunman as a "pudgy kind of man", 35 to 40 years old with brown hair.

Other former band members, Paul McCartney, guitarist George Harrison and drummer Ringo Starr are thought to have been informed of Lennon's murder.

Fans have already begun arriving at the scene, many still unaware Lennon has died. Mr Lennon is survived by his wife, their son Sean, and his son from a previous marriage, Julian.
For all of you who live through those years, and the younger ones too; I hope ypu will forgive me for once more posting the words to one of Retrorich's favourite songs (and whoever I have forgotten).............

Imagine​

Imagine there's no heaven,​

It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky,
Imagine all the people
living for today...

Imagine there's no countries,​

It isnt hard to do,
Nothing to kill or die for,
No religion too,
Imagine all the people
living life in peace...

Imagine no possesions,​

I wonder if you can,
No need for greed or hunger,
A brotherhood of man,
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world...

You may say Im a dreamer,​

but Im not the only one,
I hope some day you'll join us,
And the world will live as one.:162:

​

RIP John Lennon. One of my favorite musical geniuses.

 

[James the Persian]

Whilst I like the song's music and appreciate the talent of John Lennon, I certainly can't subscribe to the ideals expressed in those lyrics. Anarcho-Communism (which, lets face it, is what Imagine espouses) is naively over-idealistic and I can't see it being a solution for any of the world's problem's. Tolerance for each other's beliefs is not achieved by expunging them in the atheistic manner such a political ideology suggests.

James

 

[FFH]

His death is the only death in which I remember exactly where I was when I heard the news. I was foreteen. I new that we had lost a special man.

 

[FFH]

Whilst I like the song's music and appreciate the talent of John Lennon, I certainly can't subscribe to the ideals expressed in those lyrics. Anarcho-Communism (which, lets face it, is what Imagine espouses) is naively over-idealistic and I can't see it being a solution for any of the world's problem's. Tolerance for each other's beliefs is not achieved by expunging them in the atheistic manner such a political ideology suggests.

James

John was only trying to help us to imagine a time when heaven and earth will be combined. A time when we will live for the moment. A future day when we will enjoy life to the fullest. No wars, not death, no disease, no sadness, only joy. "Living for today" was my favorite verse. This song was also my favorite song, at the time. I remember it well. It gave me hope.

People love to kill hope in others.

 

[michel]

His death is the only death in which I remember exactly where I was when I heard the news. I was foreteen. I new that we had lost a special man.

Strange, many people say that, and I haven't a clue as to where I was, nor whay I was doing; the only thing I can equate with his shooting was that it was on my older son's bithday (now I know John Lennon was killed on this day)......I am also totally unaware of where I was and what I was doing when Kenedy was shot - anothe case when people can usually place themselves..(maybe that was all pre-lobotomy )

 

[James the Persian]

John was only trying to help us to imagine a time when heaven and earth will be combined. A time when we will live for the moment ("living for today") My favorite verse. A future day when we will enjoy life to the fullest. No wars, not death, no disease, no sadness, only joy. This was my favorite song at that time. I remember it so well. It gave me hope.

People love to kill hope in others.

Actually, no. Lennon was quite distinctly atheistic and an open admirer of anarcho-communist thinkers such as Pyotr Kropotkin. He was most certainly not inviting us to imagine a perfect future day when heaven and earth are combined. He was, in fact, attrivbuting many of the current world's evil to such things as nation states and belief in God. Of course, if you wish to interpret it the way you do that's fine and I am glad that you get something more positive out of the lyrics than I do. Personal interpretation of art is at least as important as the intention of the artist, after all. I actually like the song quite a lot, and always have, I just try not to pay much attention to some of the lyrics.

James

 

[FFH]

Strange, many people say that, and I haven't a clue as to where I was, nor whay I was doing; the only thing I can equate with his shooting was that it was on my older son's bithday (now I know John Lennon was killed on this day)......I am also totally unaware of where I was and what I was doing when Kenedy was shot - anothe case when people can usually place themselves..(maybe that was all pre-lobotomy )

I was sitting in a High School classroom and the news of his death was broadcast over our closed circuit television system. I was in shock. Why would someone do this. I am glad that John wrote the song "Imagine" before he died. God wanted him home I guess. He had finished his work.

 

[FFH]

Actually, no. Lennon was quite distinctly atheistic and an open admirer of anarcho-communist thinkers such as Pyotr Kropotkin. He was most certainly not inviting us to imagine a perfect future day when heaven and earth are combined. He was, in fact, attrivbuting many of the current world's evil to such things as nation states and belief in God. Of course, if you wish to interpret it the way you do that's fine and I am glad that you get something more positive out of the lyrics than I do. Personal interpretation of art is at least as important as the intention of the artist, after all. I actually like the song quite a lot, and always have, I just try not to pay much attention to some of the lyrics.

James

"Imagine" is a song in which you must seperate the man's life and ideology and focus on what he was trying to say. He himself was searching for truth in a world full of lies. He was well on his way to exposing the lies of our society. Satan hated him and wanted him dead. He was going to expose all the bad in this world. This is what Kennedy was trying to do just before he got shot. Kennedy was exposing people in the mob and all the ellegal thngs they were doing. The mob took him out fast. They did not give him a chance to do anything. Don't mess with the mob.

 

[FFH]

Strange, many people say that, and I haven't a clue as to where I was, nor whay I was doing; the only thing I can equate with his shooting was that it was on my older son's bithday (now I know John Lennon was killed on this day)......I am also totally unaware of where I was and what I was doing when Kenedy was shot - anothe case when people can usually place themselves..(maybe that was all pre-lobotomy )

I miss those pre-lobotomy days. I am glad they they don't do that anymore. At least you can remember your older son's birthday. My memory does not serve me well either. It is amazing to me that I remember where I was when heard the news of John's death. I don't ususally remember things like that.

 

[Pardus]

I love the beatles music, i always remeber the day john lennon was shot, ok maybe it's because i was born the day after.

But he was like gandhi, jesus, martin luther king jr, it's the peaceful people who only show us love that get such violent deaths.

I only hope to become half the person that they were.

 

[James the Persian]

"Imagine" is a song in which you must seperate the man's life and ideology and focus on what he was trying to say. He himself was searching for truth in a world full of lies. He was well on his way to exposing the lies of our society. Satan hated him and wanted him dead. He was going to expose all the bad in this world. This is what Kennedy was trying to do just before he got shot. Kennedy was exposing people in the mob and all the ellegal thngs they were doing. The mob took him out fast. They did not give him a chance to do anything. Don't mess with the mob.

Well, I have a hard time believing that Satan was behind Lennon's murder, but each to their own. If so, I suspect he rather shot himself in the foot as such an openly atheist role model was only liable to pull people away from, and not push them towards, faith in God. I'm not sure if you're saying that Satan was behind Kennedy's death too, but I'd have to say that I'm inclined to believe that Satan does not act so openly as to organise political killings.

I must just ask, though, about a certain double standard I perceive in your posts. Why is it that the openly atheist Lennon's overtly anti-religious song is somehow OK whereas the in-no-way-I-can-discern anti-Christian writings of one J.K. Rowling, herself a Christian, is somehow bad? Presumably, this is all a matter of personal interpretation on your part and has nothing to do with any demonic activity given that, in your opinion ,Lennon seems to not mean what he plainly says whereas Rowling appears to mean something other than she clearly writes. I'm just a little puzzled.

James

 

[retrorich]

I actually like the song quite a lot, and always have, I just try not to pay much attention to some of the lyrics.

James

Good idea. They might force you to do some thinking outside the scope of religious dogma.

 

[jeffrey]

Faith, James is right. John was an Atheist. Now, if you find a different meaning in the song then what John was trying to convey, more power to you. P.S. I love that song, but like James, try to imagine different lyrics.

I was at work at a shoe store when I heard the news. I remember it brought tears to my eyes. So many great songs, so much passion for life.​

 

[James the Persian]

Good idea. They might force you to do some thinking outside the scope of religious dogma.

Thanks for the ridiculous comment. For your information, I not only am a convert to the Orthodox Church, and hence grew up outside of my current faith, but in my student years was an active member of an anarchist communist group in Britain. I think it's fair to say that I have already thought 'outside the box', and in precisely the direction Lennon was going, and have rejected said ideology. Your implication that all those who hold strongly to a religious belief are ignorant sheep blindly following dogma illustrates nothing more than your own personal ignorance about how and why people come to religious belief in the first place. And that's my being charitable as it's quite easy to read anti-religious bigotry into your comment. You also clearly didn't really read my post as I made it perfectly clear that I'm happy for others to take what they can from art. My rejection of Lennon's ideals in no way reflects blinkered thinking on my part. Your reaction to my comment does make you look pretty blinkered, though.

James

 

[FFH]

Well, I have a hard time believing that Satan was behind Lennon's murder, but each to their own. If so, I suspect he rather shot himself in the foot as such an openly atheist role model was only liable to pull people away from, and not push them towards, faith in God. I'm not sure if you're saying that Satan was behind Kennedy's death too, but I'd have to say that I'm inclined to believe that Satan does not act so openly as to organise political killings.

I must just ask, though, about a certain double standard I perceive in your posts. Why is it that the openly atheist Lennon's overtly anti-religious song is somehow OK whereas the in-no-way-I-can-discern anti-Christian writings of one J.K. Rowling, herself a Christian, is somehow bad? Presumably, this is all a matter of personal interpretation on your part and has nothing to do with any demonic activity given that, in your opinion ,Lennon seems to not mean what he plainly says whereas Rowling appears to mean something other than she clearly writes. I'm just a little puzzled.

James

You know you made a great point. How could i accept a song written by an Athiest. This may be confusing to you. Why would I not accept a book written by J.K. Rowling, whom you say is a Christian, something I was not aware of, yet I would accept a song written by an Athiest.

It is all about the content of a book or song. If I cannot find anything that conflicts with my Christian teachings then I will accept it, regardless of the author or song writer.

I would not accept J.K. Rowlings' books, simply because she was a Christian.
I would not reject John Lennon's songs, simply because he is Athiest.

It's all about the content of the song.

John Lennon's song speaks of the Millenium and how it will be when Christ returns to earth. No more sorrow, no more tears, only joy, peace and love.

Isaiah 25: 8

"He will swallow up death in victory, and the Lord God will wipe away tears from off all faces, and the rebuke of his people shall he take away from off all the earth for the Lord hath spoken it."

 

[michel]

Whilst I like the song's music and appreciate the talent of John Lennon, I certainly can't subscribe to the ideals expressed in those lyrics. Anarcho-Communism (which, lets face it, is what Imagine espouses) is naively over-idealistic and I can't see it being a solution for any of the world's problem's. Tolerance for each other's beliefs is not achieved by expunging them in the atheistic manner such a political ideology suggests.

James

Do you know James, it had never even occurred to me. That goes to show how short sighted and dense I am.

What if you removed "

Imagine​

Imagine there's no heaven,
It's easy if you try,
No hell below us,
Above us only sky," ?​

​

As far as I can see, the only atheist content ? living for today ? - Buddhism, and a jolly good way to live, for the moment, savouring life to the full.​

​

As for your rejection of Communism, I can understand why you should feel as you do, and I am sorry if you personally (or any of your family have suffered).......but I would add that, in it's ideal., there is nothing wrong with the concept of 'no Countries, no poverty, all working together, for the same goal' - and here, belive it or not, speaks a Capitalist.
​

 

[FFH]

I think his song speaks of a Zionistic society not a Capitalistic or Communistic society.

Zionism- A cooperative voluntary effort to form a utopia. All things are shared.
Capitalism- A competitive effort which leads to the dividing of classes.
Communism- A forced but cooperative effort in which there are no classes.

These are my own interpretaions. I did not look this up.

John lennon's song speaks of a Zionistic society, in a paradisical place.

Zionism is similar to Communism only in Zionistic societies people are not forced to obey. Freedom of choice is championed. Free agency is not a part of Communism. Communism is a forced Zionistic society

 

[retrorich]

Thanks for the ridiculous comment. For your information, I not only am a convert to the Orthodox Church, and hence grew up outside of my current faith, but in my student years was an active member of an anarchist communist group in Britain. I think it's fair to say that I have already thought 'outside the box', and in precisely the direction Lennon was going, and have rejected said ideology. Your implication that all those who hold strongly to a religious belief are ignorant sheep blindly following dogma illustrates nothing more than your own personal ignorance about how and why people come to religious belief in the first place. And that's my being charitable as it's quite easy to read anti-religious bigotry into your comment. You also clearly didn't really read my post as I made it perfectly clear that I'm happy for others to take what they can from art. My rejection of Lennon's ideals in no way reflects blinkered thinking on my part. Your reaction to my comment does make you look pretty blinkered, though.

James

WOW! Did I manage to imply all that in two short sentences? I must be a helluva good writer! :biglaugh:

 

[James the Persian]

I think his song speaks of a Zionistic society not a Capitalistic or Communistic society.

Zionism- A cooperative voluntary effort to form a utopia. All things are shared.
Capitalism- A competitive effort which leads to the dividing of classes.
Communism- A forced but cooperative effort in which there are no classes.

These are my own interpretaions. I did not look this up.

John lennon's song speaks of a Zionistic society, in a paradisical place.

Zionism is similar to Communism only in Zionistic societies people are not forced to obey. Freedom of choice is championed. Free agency is not a part of Communism. Communism is a forced Zionistic society

Interestingly, apart from that I assume your Zionistic society to be based on love for God, your definition of the difference between a Zionistic and a Communist society is precisely the distinction between an anarcho-communist society and a 'state communist' one such as Stalinism or Maoism. I can now see (if you ignore the explicitly anti-religious statements in 'Imagine') how you interpret it the way you do. I still have a hard time understanding how you can ignore those statements, but as I said, what you get out of any art is to a large degree personal.

James

P.S.
I still don't get your views on Harry Potter, but we'd best let it lie as it's not strictly on topic.