"Imagine"

[Hope]

'Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today....

"Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
No religion too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace..."

from "Imagine" by John Lennon

I have always admired this song for its beautifully written and idealistic lyrics. However, it has always made me ponder some things. Once again I have an assortment of thoughts in my brain--let's see if I can get them out in a reasonable sort of manner. First of all, if there were no religion at all in the world, would this earth indeed be a better place? While I admit that a lot of horrible things have been done in the name of 'religion', I would be ignorant to claim that there hasn't been a lot of good done in the name of 'religion' as well. Oftentimes, people overlook the good things and point out all the bad things. Now, if there were, let's say, no religion at all in the world, would this have a good effect or a bad effect?

Also, why can't we all live in peace and harmony? It sounds like such an awesome idea, and we all wish it were true, but why is it so hard to accomplish? How do we change human behavior? I personally believe that it's impossible for there to be worldwide peace because the root of the problem is found in human nature. I am being very pessimistic, I realize, yet I see no way of there ever being a 'utopia' on this earth as long as the human race is so flawed. Does anyone else think that a world without wars and complete peace and harmony is ever possible? I'd love to hear people's opinions on this, and the reasons behind their opinions.

My own opinion is that without 'religion'--in its purest, best form--urging us to change our behavior, this world would be an even worse place than it is.

 

[Sunstone]

I think both religious behavior and warfare is characteristic of our species and both ultimately have roots in our genetic makeup.

 

[Hope]

This does not answer any of my questions, though!

 

[Green Gaia]

I've always loved and admired that song as well, Hope. I think it's impossible for humans not to have "religion" (i.e., a way of explaining the world and how we should live in it), however I believe what the song is referring to, is organized religion that oversteps it's bounds and becomes political and powerful and something perverted from it's pure form.

 

[Lightkeeper]

I think religion is more than explaining our world around us. It is a deep seated need and is within us. We will always project it outward in some form or another. People would do bad things whether or not it was in the name of religion. To have peace and harmony on the whole planet, you might need a common cause. If Earth were attacked by aliens, we would come together as a unit to fight the enemy. Disharmony may very well be a disagreement of who the enemy is.

 

[Sunstone]

Hope writes:

“Does anyone else think that a world without wars and complete peace and harmony is ever possible?”

Hope, I sadly suspect that human nature itself would have to fundamentally change for such a world to become a real possibility. We seem to be a tragic species that is evolved to war upon each other, and while some wars might be justified, it’s also true that many (probably most) are not. But in my opinion, none of that means that working for peace is futile. If an effort to bring about peace can shorten even one unnecessary war – or if an effort to maintain peace can prevent even one unnecessary war – then those efforts are worthwhile.

Maize writes:

“I think it's impossible for humans not to have ‘religion’…”

I quite agree. I think there is something innate in human nature that manifests itself as religious behavior. Our basic nature would need to change before that could be gotten rid of. And like you, Maize, I don’t think that our basic religious nature is necessarily a bad thing, but that it has (historically speaking) been very easy for unscrupulous persons to pervert it to sour political ends.

Lightkeeper writes:

“If Earth were attacked by aliens, we would come together as a unit to fight the enemy. Disharmony may very well be a disagreement of who the enemy is.”

In my most idealistic moments, Lightkeeper, I wonder if we will ever see a day when humanity comes together, united to tackle the serious problems which beset humanity. For instance: problems like environmental degradation and what to do about our non-environmentally sustainable economy. In my opinion, those problems (and some others) are every bit as dangerous to the future of humanity as would be an hypothetical attack by aliens. Maybe the seriousness of those problems can someday unite humanity in an effort to solve them. I hope so.

 

[Faust]

I don't believe Mr. lennon meant we should not be spiritual but that religeon can't be used as logic.
Religeon answers our questions concerning purpose and significance. Logic deals with things we can percieve with our five senses. People seem to need answers from both spheres to feel complete. It's when we try to substitute one for the other that problems arise. Religeon can't provide answers for logic because it's meant to deal with our emotive sides. Logic can't provide answers for religeon because it dreals with our rational sides.
Therefore, when we try to use religeon to solve the practical problems we face as humans, we create a conflict within ourselves that handicaps our ability to rationaly work out the best course of action.

 

[Lightkeeper]

I think his main message was peace and living in the moment. He spent a lot of time with Hindu gurus.

 

[Faust]

Yes but I also believe that he was talking about socialist values.
I have nothing against socialism as a philosiphy but I believe what started as a survival instinct in humans ( the desire to posses ) has become over-exagerated (the desire to be the highest paid CEO ).
One of the first things both of my children learned was "mine". We have to be taught to share.

 

[Hope]

I don't believe Mr. lennon meant we should not be spiritual but that religeon can't be used as logic.
Religeon answers our questions concerning purpose and significance. Logic deals with things we can percieve with our five senses. People seem to need answers from both spheres to feel complete. It's when we try to substitute one for the other that problems arise. Religeon can't provide answers for logic because it's meant to deal with our emotive sides. Logic can't provide answers for religeon because it dreals with our rational sides.
Therefore, when we try to use religeon to solve the practical problems we face as humans, we create a conflict within ourselves that handicaps our ability to rationaly work out the best course of action.

Point well taken. And, yes, if John Lennon meant mainly organized religion, then I can see better where he's coming from. What I am referring to is not 'organized religion.' I simply mean religious beliefs and convictions that spur us to be better people.

I have to question you on one thing, however. You say we can't use religion to solve practical problems. What do you mean by that?

 

[Faust]

Religion comes as a whole package.
That's why it's so fractuos. The adhearants of any one sect are expected to speak as one so shades of grey are minamalized.
The controlling faction of any one sect sets the parameters of that group.
This is not to say that beliefs on a personal level do not influence our rational process but I believe we were speaking of group dynamics .(and the wourld will live as one)

 

[Faust]

Please excuse my spelling.

 

[Faust]

Hope did you recieve my reply concerning practical? I'm new to this and I'm trying to figure it out as I go along. My medium is books.

 

[Hope]

Yes i did. I see now what you mean. I can use the Bible as an example. Because I am a Christian, I believe the Bible is truth--however, the truth it contains is not usually of the specific, practical kind. It is mainly spiritual truth. And I don't think this is an accident. If I want to find out how to build a house or fly a plane I am obviously not going to look in the Bible for answers. And I think when people do try to find answers to practical things in a spiritual book, they are overlooking one very important asset---their God-given brains.

Am I following your line of thinking somewhat?

 

[Faust]

Yes Hope,
And thank you for being so patient with me.
This is a bit like trying to ride a motorcycle without ever having seen even a bicycle. But I'm slowly figuring it out. I'm almost completely computer illiterate.

 

[The Voice of Reason]

I think good deeds (and bad deeds) are done by individuals, based on their own personal moral code (or lack thereof). I think religions are far more divisive than anything else ever invented by man. They are used to segregate, denigrate, and ostracize based on who is in power within the sphere of influence of that religion. So let's get rid of religion and let the goodness of man take us to that plane of peace and harmony.

Of course, unlike most others on this site, I also believe very strongly in the removal of people without a moral compass from existence (the death penalty). After a short time, people that remain are those with compassion for their fellow man, that strive to live in peace (and harmony).

Can I get a group hug here?
TVOR

 

[Michelle]

I love this song. I think his dream was World Peace in a world with no boundaries.

 

[Runt]

If there were no religion, people would be living well instead of spending time trying to decide what God/religious leaders say they must do to live well. They'd be enjoying life instead of worrying about some unknowable afterlife. There would be one less reason for people to hate/despise/feel superior to other people. There would be one less source of feelings of guilt and fear. As for the good things that religion brings... well... I think they can be found simply in living... there can be a spiritual community without it having to be a religious community, if you know what I mean.

 

[Sunstone]

If there were no religion, people would be living well instead of spending time trying to decide what God/religious leaders say they must do to live well. They'd be enjoying life instead of worrying about some unknowable afterlife. There would be one less reason for people to hate/despise/feel superior to other people. There would be one less source of feelings of guilt and fear. As for the good things that religion brings... well... I think they can be found simply in living... there can be a spiritual community without it having to be a religious community, if you know what I mean.

When the first priests built the first temple on the sands of Eridu some 5500 years ago, spirituality became a trait of human nature to be exploited by the state. There has been a conflict between natural human spirituality and organized religion ever since. I think in Lennon's song, "Imagine", he's talking about bringing about an end to organized religion -- but not to spirituality.

 

[Runt]

I agree Sunstone. I see no problem with spirituality... spirituality is a personal journey in which your path occassionally crosses paths with that of another indivividual, and, in encountering other people, may diverge off into completely different (but equally wonderful) directions as you encounter new ideas. Religion, on the other hand, often seems to me to be the attempt by humans to determine the spiritual paths of others, to force them to follow your path rather than allow (even encourage) them to make their own journey; an attempt to bottle up one person's spiritual experience and sell it to others in an attempt to gain control over them. Now, religions can contain spirituality of this sort--some encourage individual spiritual journeys and simply provide a loose structure in which people's paths briefly cross and they can engage in a period of mutual exploration-- but I think ALL religions have the potential for the kind of corruption I described, and many are guilty of it.