Imams banned from charity event

[S_J]

Well, actually, don't they have the right to say whatever they want? We have a politician here who is allowed to make pretty much the same statements about Muslims. You are probably right about the imams views - but isn't that what we stand for? The right to express ourselves? Or is it all one-sided? We can say all Muslims are vermin, but not the other way around.

Maybe you are right and this is the only way to stop such ideas from spreading. But still, it feels wrong to me. It feels hypocrite and snobbish. I always thought that the only way to resolve an argument was to keep talking until we find something we can all agree on, but perhaps I'm just being naive.

Fortunately, in Germany you don't have the right to use some power position to influence people in a way that makes them commit what are considered crimes in Germany. In this regard, if what you're saying is asking people to violate law, you are NOT allowed to do that.
I'm happy that some weeks ago it were fellow muslims who reported to police an Imam who had stated that husbands should make use of their right to rape their wives, which is a crime in Germany since 1997.
I think he wasn't even brought to the courtyard, but as a consequence will not be invited anymore.
And yes, I'm perfectly fine with that my country does not tolerate asking people to be violent to e.g. females.

Edit: if you want people to talk instead of DOING bad things... Ask those people who put videos on the internet where they forcefully and brutally kill people who in most cases were reporters or even people engaged in aid projects, prostituting and selling as slaves hundreds and thousands of innocent young girls, selling organs from victims, crucifying people for NOTHING in areas where they are the boss .. If you ask me, we are still "talking" far too much. You don't discuss with psychopaths. You put them somewhere where they can't hurt people .. or stop them otherwise if that is not possible for some reason.
Most of these folks are not great muslims, they are just happy to be allowed and able to rape and kill whatever they don't like. It's really that primitive. But still "Allah" is the label they put on their barbaric deeds. So don't blame people if they'd like to defend themselves when encountering that label.

 

[Servant_of_the_One1]

What if they were rabbis going to Holland for Pro-Israel meeting?

 

[Nietzsche]

Fortunately, in Germany you don't have the right to use some power position to influence people in a way that makes them commit what are considered crimes in Germany. In this regard, if what you're saying is asking people to violate law, you are NOT allowed to do that.
I'm happy that some weeks ago it were fellow muslims who reported to police an Imam who had stated that husbands should make use of their right to rape their wives, which is a crime in Germany since 1997.
I think he wasn't even brought to the courtyard, but as a consequence will not be invited anymore.
And yes, I'm perfectly fine with that my country does not tolerate asking people to be violent to e.g. females.

Edit: if you want people to talk instead of DOING bad things... Ask those people who put videos on the internet where they forcefully and brutally kill people who in most cases were reporters or even people engaged in aid projects, prostituting and selling as slaves hundreds and thousands of innocent young girls, selling organs from victims, crucifying people for NOTHING in areas where they are the boss .. If you ask me, we are still "talking" far too much. You don't discuss with psychopaths. You put them somewhere where they can't hurt people .. or stop them otherwise if that is not possible for some reason.
Most of these folks are not great muslims, they are just happy to be allowed and able to rape and kill whatever they don't like. It's really that primitive. But still "Allah" is the label they put on their barbaric deeds. So don't blame people if they'd like to defend themselves when encountering that label.

^_^

Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt,
Wenn es stets zu Schutz und Trutze
Brüderlich zusammenhält.
Von der Maas bis an die Memel,
Von der Etsch bis an den Belt,
|: Deutschland, Deutschland über alles,
Über alles in der Welt! :|

Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang
Sollen in der Welt behalten
Ihren alten schönen Klang,
Uns zu edler Tat begeistern
Unser ganzes Leben lang.
|: Deutsche Frauen, deutsche Treue,
Deutscher Wein und deutscher Sang! :|

Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Für das deutsche Vaterland!
Danach lasst uns alle streben
Brüderlich mit Herz und Hand!
Einigkeit und Recht und Freiheit
Sind des Glückes Unterpfand;
|: Blüh' im Glanze dieses Glückes,
Blühe, deutsches Vaterland! :|

 

[Augustus]

What if they were rabbis going to Holland for Pro-Israel meeting?

Pro-Israel would be ok.

If they had a record of anti-Palestinian hate speech though, they should also be banned.

 

[Adramelek]

I couldn't be on speaking terms with an Islamic extremist anymore than I could be with a rattle snake. I cant ever remember hearing about a Jewish terrorist group going around beheading and burning alive Christians and Muslims simply because they weren't Jewish. Now, Christianity does have a lot of blood on its hands too. During the crusades, convert or die, and the Inquisition, the burning times.

 

[columbus]

Well, actually, don't they have the right to say whatever they want? r

Not according to Dutch law.
I'm sure that "Holocaust denial" is a crime in the Netherlands.
Since we don't know who these people are, and we do know that many many imams preach this, that could well be the reason they are not welcome.

Tom

 

[Lyndon]

Pro-Israel would be ok.

If they had a record of anti-Palestinian hate speech though, they should also be banned.

Yeah maybe they need to ban some of the anti Palestinian and anti Jewish hate speech on this forum.

 

[Lyndon]

Not according to Dutch law.
I'm sure that "Holocaust denial" is a crime in the Netherlands.
Since we don't know who these people are, and we do know that many many imams preach this, that could well be the reason they are not welcome.

Tom

That's good that they have laws against holocaust denial, now they need some law against Palestinian denial, as in people who deny there were and are Palestinians living in Israel.

 

[S_J]

@Nietzsche, I'm just referring to my own country because in this particular case I do know the laws ;-)

I am aware that there are countries out there in which law punishes people to being whipped or stoned if they do or say the wrong things, and even about the US I'm not completely informed about how this "free speach"-thing is handled there. Snowden at least obviously WASN'T allowed to talk about what he did talk about, and if they should get him (I do wish they won't), his consequences might be worse than being whipped .. although most of it will not happen publicly.

Based on tHe suggestion that you know the meaning of what you posted ;-) And no, I'm not a Nazi.

 

[Nietzsche]

@Nietzsche, I'm just referring to my own country because in this particular case I do know the laws ;-)

I am aware that there are countries out there in which law punishes people to being whipped or stoned if they do or say the wrong things, and even about the US I'm not completely informed about how this "free speach"-thing is handled there. Snowden at least obviously WASN'T allowed to talk about what he did talk about, and if they should get him (I do wish they won't), his consequences might be worse than being whipped .. although most of it will not happen publicly.

Based on tHe suggestion that you know the meaning of what you posted ;-) And no, I'm not a Nazi.

I'm a Germanophile, I was doing that because I was agreeing with you. I did the Black-White-Red because the Kaiserreich is near & dear to my heart.

 

[CMike]

I feel like playing Devil's Advocate here;

What would you've said if these were Israelis or just Jews who were denied entrance?

If they don't get access because they are terrorists that is justified.

The government has a duty to protect its citizens.

 

[CMike]

What if they were rabbis going to Holland for Pro-Israel meeting?

These were terrorist suspects.

 

[S_J]

I'm a Germanophile, I was doing that because I was agreeing with you. I did the Black-White-Red because the Kaiserreich is near & dear to my heart.

Oh, sorry then, couldn't guess that. This version of the hymn has been forbidden, just the last stanza is being used today. The first two stanzas in particular are associated with national socialism nowadays, so either very old people use them because they didn't get those "news", or Neonazis do amongst each other to set a sign. Just in case you shouldn't be aware of that, for Germans might react strange toward it ;-)

Oh, and by the way, we don't have a Kaiser any more, we're kind of a democracy and it's called "Bundesrepublik"

 

[Nietzsche]

Oh, sorry then, couldn't guess that. This version of the hymn has been forbidden, just the last stanza is being used today. The first two stanzas in particular are associated with national socialism nowadays, so either very old people use them because they didn't get those "news", or Neonazis do amongst each other to set a sign. Just in case you shouldn't be aware of that, for Germans might react strange toward it ;-)

Oh, and by the way, we don't have a Kaiser any more, we're kind of a democracy and it's called "Bundesrepublik"

I know all of this too. German(and Germanic) history are my two passions. Prussia & the Kaiserreich in particular. I used the whole anthem because, well, I like that version most.

 

[gsa]

If they don't get access because they are terrorists that is justified.

The government has a duty to protect its citizens.

Would you feel the same way if West Bank settler groups were listed as Foreign Terrorist Organizations?

 

[Badrul]

Don't waste your time here. Do your own work. This is a useless talk.

 

[DragonHawk1959]

I would like to hear your opinion on this. A while ago, word came out that there was to be a fund-raising event in the Netherlands where several foreign imams would speak, attempting to raise money for a good cause. Some of these imams were considered to be "controversial". It appeared to be mostly a matter of public opinion, because only after demonstrations from civilians, especially those in Rijswijk where the event was supposed to take place, the government stepped in. The imams were actually denied access to the Netherlands. However, on what grounds exactly, never became quite clear.
More and more Muslims are seen as dangerous, potential IS fighters. Muslims are being displayed as ticking time bombs, and allowing them in your country would be like saying "We're on the side of IS!"
It was a charity event, for crying out loud!
I'm using this event as an example of what has been going on here for a while now. What I'm really trying to say is, I think it's scary that there's such a divide, such "us against them-thinking". It's as if they are trying to convince us that if we don't watch our backs, each and every single Muslim is going to transform into a suicide bomber. I didn't mind when it was just people saying it, but if even officials start spreading this image, isn't that outright dangerous?

Muslim charity shocked after controversial imam visas are cancelled
Uncategorized February 18, 2015

View attachment 8206Islamic foundation Rohamma said on Wednesday it is shocked by the decision to withdraw visas for three imams due to address a fund-raising event on March 8.

Foreign affairs minister Bert Koenders cancelled the visas on Tuesday citing ‘new information from the counter-terrorism unit NCTV’.

‘Normal procedures’ had been followed when the visas were granted and the three men ‘were not flagged up in databases’, Koenders is quoted as saying by the Telegraaf.




He did not say what the new information is and which imams have been banned from coming to the Netherlands, the Volkskrant reports.

MPs had asked the minister to explain why several imams were given visas to attend what the Telegraaf dubbed a ‘jihad gala’ in Rijswijk.

The aim of the event is to raise money for various charities involving orphans, the handicapped and homeless all over the world.

Click here for the source

If all Imams were prohibited this would be a gross injustice. If only the radicals known to be troublemakers were interdicted the move is reasonable. Other troublemakers are prohibited entry, why should religious troublemakers be exempted from such a policy?

 

[Gustav Bjornstrand]

I admit to being confused about the conflict in the ME. Essentially, I think it is not an issue that can be decided on a moral or ethical basis. I have the sense that the ME is being deliberately attacked and undermined to to open up recalcitrant areas in culture to penetration by vast economic powers which seem to me to have no 'morality'. Thus, the ME is tossed into tremendous turmoil and there is all different manner of reaction. It is not hard for me to see the reaction in France as an expression of this.

OTOH, it is not impossible for me to see and to understand the Muslim religion---and by this I mean political Islam---as a significant danger to much that we of the West value, and that is part-and-parcel of our institutions, culture, etc.

Yet, there is a disgusting side of our culture(s) too: vain, empty, commercial---all the worst aspects of vast groups of ignorant people forced out of submersion to 'participate' in what is, I think, a pis*-poor excuse for democracy. In this sense we suffer from a weakening foundation and don't really know what to value, what to defend. Most don't really care. Most simply want to exist, consume, be entertained.

But mostly I see huge, really vast, economic and industrial forces who are *mindless* really (soulless possibly) who are the principal agents running the show. The question of right and wrong ... seems to become absurd. We will speak about these things as if our common decency decides anything at all and it really seems to me that it doesn't, or far less than we wish to admit.

What really is going on in the struggle of Occident versus the Middle East, or the Occident versus Islam? I wish it were easier to get a grip on it.

The Popper quote seems quite good. Yay! Bravo! Clap clap clap! But there are some who say that with extreme cynicism and all the banality of which evil is capable ... that quite terrible crimes were committed in Iraq. Is it true that a million people lost their lives in the various wars to rid the would of Saddam Hussein? Someone, please, tell me the truth (or 'truth' or Truth) about all that. Hasy anyone on that side ever killed or caused to be killed a million of us?

How does one evaluate these things?

 

[Sees]

Oh, sorry then, couldn't guess that. This version of the hymn has been forbidden, just the last stanza is being used today. The first two stanzas in particular are associated with national socialism nowadays, so either very old people use them because they didn't get those "news", or Neonazis do amongst each other to set a sign. Just in case you shouldn't be aware of that, for Germans might react strange toward it ;-)

Oh, and by the way, we don't have a Kaiser any more, we're kind of a democracy and it's called "Bundesrepublik"

Oddly enough German-Americans don't have to pretend to be so ashamed of being German as Germans typically do

 

[CMike]

Would you feel the same way if West Bank settler groups were listed as Foreign Terrorist Organizations?

If those arab settler groups were foreign terrorists then they shouldn't get visas.