• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Immaculate conception 2.0

Saint Frankenstein

Saint Frankenstein

Here for the ride
Premium Member
pearl said:
Not only St Paul but the history of religious treatment of women in general leaves much to answer for.

Twenty Vile Quotes Against Women By Church Leaders from St. Augustine to Pat Robertson (churchandstate.org.uk)
Click to expand...
"Valerie Tarico is a psychologist and writer in Seattle, Washington. She is the author of Trusting Doubt: A Former Evangelical Looks at Old Beliefs in a New Light and Deas and Other Imaginings, and the founder of www.WisdomCommons.org. Her articles about religion, reproductive health, and the role of women in society have been featured at sites including AlterNet, Salon, the Huffington Post, Grist, and Jezebel. Subscribe at ValerieTarico.com."

She got a similar list for other religions that treat women far worse and still do to this day (oh, I can't name names)? Oh, but that won't get her published on "progressive" rags like Slate, AlterNet, Jezebel (they still exist?), HuffPo, etc. So nevermind about that.
 
A Vestigial Mote

A Vestigial Mote

Well-Known Member
Jimmy said:
What does it mean to u?

I think it means Jesus was born of god and just appeared.

no mommy involved

hey he rose from the dead too so why not right?

Now do I believe this meaning?
That’s another story
Click to expand...
I always thought the "immaculate" part was a nod toward the time-honored tradition of Christian sex-shaming.
Immaculate" meaning "unmarred" or "clean" - from which one can imply that none of the rest of our conceptions have been clean and are all marred or dirty in some way. So, sperm entering vagina is automatically an unclean event. It isn't something "immaculate" obviously. it is somehow sullied, or dirty, and doesn't live up to "God's standards", apparently. Makes you wonder why he gave us the dirty jobs, doesn't it? Why did we have to be the unclean, nasty little beings that we are?

Or perhaps... just perhaps, the "non-immaculateness" of human procreation is just a perception propagated by doofuses "of the faith." People who can't get their heads out of their butts long enough to actually think about things to their logical conclusions. Could be. Need a bit more study... then maybe I'll write it up.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
A Vestigial Mote said:
I always thought the "immaculate" part was a nod toward the time-honored tradition of Christian sex-shaming.
Immaculate" meaning "unmarred" or "clean" - from which one can imply that none of the rest of our conceptions have been clean and are all marred or dirty in some way. So, sperm entering vagina is automatically an unclean event. It isn't something "immaculate" obviously. it is somehow sullied, or dirty, and doesn't live up to "God's standards", apparently. Makes you wonder why he gave us the dirty jobs, doesn't it? Why did we have to be the unclean, nasty little beings that we are?

Or perhaps... just perhaps, the "non-immaculateness" of human procreation is just a perception propagated by doofuses "of the faith." People who can't get their heads out of their butts long enough to actually think about things to their logical conclusions. Could be. Need a bit more study... then maybe I'll write it up.
Click to expand...
The first para you have written is indeed completely wrong, as other posts in this thread have made clear.

The second has a fair amount of truth in it, so long as you do not use the term "immaculate" in this context, because that just perpetuates the ignorance and misunderstanding about the immaculate conception that those of us who know what it is have been trying to dispel.

It is well to remember that sex has never been officially considered unclean in itself. After all, sex and procreation are largely the point of traditional Christian marriage.
 
GardenLady

GardenLady

Active Member
exchemist said:
It is the (rather arcane and unnecessary-seeming) doctrine that Mary had to be, uniquely, conceived without inheriting original sin, in order to be, later on, a suitable vessel for the growth in her womb of the embryonic Jesus.
Click to expand...

The reason for the "necessity" I have been told (not that I accept it) is that Mary had to be the sinless and holy to be the vessel that would bear the son of God. I have also heard a Catholic canon lawyer argue that she was the "new Ark of the Covenant" because of her role in carrying Jesus.
 
G

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
Altfish said:
So ... what does "Uniquely conceived" mean. Surely it can't be normal sexual intercourse.
Click to expand...
It means Mary was conceived free of original sin by a unique intervention of God. Catholicism does not claim that Mary was conceived without intercourse.

Altfish said:
Good to know she was a 'suitable vessel' rather than a woman with a uterus.
Click to expand...
According to Catholicism, Mary is the greatest creation of God. She is Queen of Heaven and the most powerful intercessor before Christ. Literally the Mother of God. To at all imply that Catholicism denigrates Mary betrays an absurd ignorance of Catholicism. Heck, the usual accusation has always been the opposite. That Catholics go too far in venerating Mary.
 
G

Glaurung

Denizen of Niflheim
GardenLady said:
The reason for the "necessity" I have been told (not that I accept it) is that Mary had to be the sinless and holy to be the vessel that would bear the son of God. I have also heard a Catholic canon lawyer argue that she was the "new Ark of the Covenant" because of her role in carrying Jesus.
Click to expand...
If you believe God is holy then it follows that the one creature with the privilege of carrying God himself in her womb would herself need to be free from all stain of sin. To me, it seems that Protestants who deny the immaculateness of Mary unwittingly denigrate the holiness of God. Or they don't actually believe Christ was God in the first place.
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
Musing Bassist said:
It means Mary was conceived free of original sin by a unique intervention of God. Catholicism does not claim that Mary was conceived without intercourse.
Click to expand...
But 'original sin' is a man made concept - it is total nonsense

Musing Bassist said:
According to Catholicism, Mary is the greatest creation of God. She is Queen of Heaven and the most powerful intercessor before Christ. Literally the Mother of God. To at all imply that Catholicism denigrates Mary betrays an absurd ignorance of Catholicism. Heck, the usual accusation has always been the opposite. That Catholics go too far in venerating Mary.
Click to expand...
...and another man made story.
 
exchemist

exchemist

Veteran Member
GardenLady said:
The reason for the "necessity" I have been told (not that I accept it) is that Mary had to be the sinless and holy to be the vessel that would bear the son of God. I have also heard a Catholic canon lawyer argue that she was the "new Ark of the Covenant" because of her role in carrying Jesus.
Click to expand...
Yes indeed, that is also my understanding. I have to say, though, that this strikes me as just the sort of extraneous building of theological castles in the air that has given the Catholic church a bad name over the centuries and which played a part in bringing about the Reformation.

The new Ark of the Covenant is a nice image, certainly.
 
firedragon

firedragon

Veteran Member
blü 2 said:
There are five distinct versions of Jesus in the NT ─ those of Paul and the respective authors of Mark, Matthew, Luke and John.

Paul's Jesus pre-existed in heaven with God, and (in the role of the gnostic demiurge) created he material universe. Paul tells us nothing about his parentage or birth except that he was descended from David. That implies that he was born of a Jewish family, so perhaps we may imply that his spirit entered the zygote at the moment of conception.

The Jesus of Mark is an ordinary Jew until his baptism, at which point he becomes the "son of God" because God adopts him, as [he] had adopted David in Psalm 2:7. Unlike the other four, he's not descended from David.

The Jesuses of Matthew and of Luke have in common that his mother was a virgin and that he was the product of divine insemination ─ and since he was a male, that means at the least that he had God's Y-chromosome.

The Jesus of John, like the Jesus of Paul, pre-existed in heaven with God and made the material universe. And since he too was said to be descended from David, perhaps we may make the same inferences as with Paul's Jesus about his birth.

With those three basis models to choose from ─ visitor from heaven, ordinary Jew adopted, and product of divine insemination ─ it may be gilding the lily to devise more ways; but that of course is a matter for you.
Click to expand...

"Immaculate Conception" is a Marian doctrine that Mary was born without the effects or inheritance of the Original Sin.

Not Jesus.
 
Jimmy

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Musing Bassist said:
It means Mary was conceived free of original sin by a unique intervention of God. Catholicism does not claim that Mary was conceived without intercourse.


According to Catholicism, Mary is the greatest creation of God. She is Queen of Heaven and the most powerful intercessor before Christ. Literally the Mother of God. To at all imply that Catholicism denigrates Mary betrays an absurd ignorance of Catholicism. Heck, the usual accusation has always been the opposite. That Catholics go too far in venerating Mary.
Click to expand...
Mary was perfect?
Nope
 
Jimmy

Jimmy

King Phenomenon
Musing Bassist said:
If you believe God is holy then it follows that the one creature with the privilege of carrying God himself in her womb would herself need to be free from all stain of sin. To me, it seems that Protestants who deny the immaculateness of Mary unwittingly denigrate the holiness of God. Or they don't actually believe Christ was God in the first place.
Click to expand...
Mary was perfect?
Nope
 
Altfish

Altfish

Veteran Member
Musing Bassist said:
That is not the question. The question concerns the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception and what it teaches. What you believe to be unreal or nonsense is not relevant.
Click to expand...
It wasn't me who brought original sin into the topic; I was just responding.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top